EPTThis seems like a very fun game.
Boardwalk Empire Mafia: Pick Your Power
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
This seems like a very fun game. | ||
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I don't know if we need to create a system for our draft order, or if that's effort that will end up without results. I do know we need to have a plan during the picks. We need to be able to either A) make sure town ends up with roles such as CPR Doctor, America etc. B) make sure that if someone takes it we can determine who it is exactly that ended up with it. We also need to be able to do this without giving away where our important power roles land in the draft order. Does anyone have any experience with this? If not, is there anyone with any ideas on how we can accomplish this? I'll be looking into some of the past PYP games to see if I can make a system, but I'd like everyone to contribute. As mafia's KP is 1, it is also prudent to shut down some of the roles they would take to increase their KP. I think we may also be able to determine which players took KP roles if we do our draft set up correctly. I'll be checking the thread periodically for the next few hours. I hope everyone's having a great day, let's get ready to lynch some mafia. | ||
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I believe that the best strategy for town is to hope for number conflicts. Given our larger pool of players each conflicting number between town hurts us a little bit, but each conflicting number between town and mafia hurts them a lot. As far as a power picking strategy goes, I think we need to agree on a couple things, and then assign a few roles. Please note if you disagree with any of these things. 1. America should not be picked by any town member. I don't think it very strongly benefits town. The only way I think it benefits town is if it is used by a town player to essentially act as a second lynch. I believe that America must announce its nuke in the thread (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). This is my proposal. Either A) we all agree to avoid the role. No town member takes it, thus if it is ever used we will know that a mafia member took it. or B) If someone does pick it they announce themselves right away and we use it as a second lynch. Announcing it after day 1, or using the power to kill someone that the town does not agree on should be seen as that person claiming scum. I personally prefer option A, but I can't control anyone. 2. Kingmaker should not be picked by any town member. This is another role that does not benefit town nearly as much as mafia. As the game goes on there's more and more chance that you will give mafia an extra kill, and there's no guarantee that if you give a townie the extra lynch that they will lynch a mafia. The same thing goes as with america if this role is picked though, and someone makes you king, announce that you're the king, and go with the majority using it as a second lynch. I believe it's absolutely imperative to deny these roles: 1. Janitor We can't let mafia get this role, it denies us far too much information, we need to be able to determine who has this role, which means we need to assign it. That way we can make sure the role will never be used, or if it is thatn we know who to lynch/vig immediately. 2. Assassin/CPR doctor We need to block these roles as well, both of these are incredibly strong roles (each giving the mafia a guaranteed 1 KP per cycle) 3. Thief Another really strong mafia role, this could be somewhat useful for town, I guess. But I think it's most important to simply deny mafia the role. 4. Prince of Darkness I'm not sure if this is worth denying, so I'd like opinions on this one. I'm leaning towards attempting to deny it because it has the potential to give mafia A LOT of kills in a row. Last but not least, if we're assigning roles I think the best way to do it is to assign based on draft position order. This however means we should decide which positions will choose what role today. That way there's no arguments about it tomorrow. | ||
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On April 04 2013 12:44 Shelvocke wrote: Pick what you want when you want. By making a list and saying "no townie pick these", all you do is allow mafia to pick up extremely strong roles at the end of the draft. Trying to deny roles by directly assigning specific numbered spots is even worse due to the sheer number of roles that can steal, copy, or redirect. This isn't even considering the fact that there are too many strong mafia roles to deny all of them. If everyone agrees not to pick America, when they reveal themselves to use their nuke we will know they're mafia. Unless I'm mistaken about how nukes work, then there is a greater benefit to town by not picking the role in my opinion. I strongly believe assigning those roles is a requirement to win this game. There are 3 roles that can copy or misdirect powers, one is thief and it's already in my list of powers we need to deny. Another is role swapper, and that's not nearly as powerful, and it is entirely possible that it would just act as an extended role block if we can determine who the role swapper is right away. Framer is concerning because it can direct actions, but at worst it means that they get one of the denied roles for as long as the framer can stay alive and untouched by town actions. The "sheer number" of roles that can steal copy or redirect is exactly 3. 1 of which I say we should deny, another very weak, only one is a credible threat to town in my plan supposing they pick it. | ||
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On April 04 2013 13:03 Mocsta wrote: No, I do not believe that is the intent at all. Context: (1) We have no idea of the draft order (yet) (2) Even when we know the draft order, we have no idea who is town who is not. I think someone raised giving roles out based on draft order. If you want to risk that go ahead, but its also could be a way to fall into the "pick a claimed role -> you are now VT" trap. This whole draft system inherently is filled with WIFOM (including for scum); and as proven in past games, some of us *WILL* remain as vanilla. My 2c: I am going to submit my 2 numbers. Once I know my draft number, I will *only* then start thinking about what role(s) I want to put my hand up for. I personally think its better to have *a* role, than no role. As an aside Im not sure how big a deal the janitor flip is. The difference between here and personality 2 is that we know the role exists, and is of finite duration (48 hrs). Yes, there is potential to follow false leads from a "false" flip, however, one thing I noted about Personality2 was that many of the believers of Corazon innocence, were very shocked post-janitor flip. I think a townie should be able to prove innocence via more means than just a green flip. How are you sure of the duration of the janitor? I believe you have misinterpreted it. I believe when the janitor uses his powers the day post will contain the names of the deceased and no information. And that information will not be displayed later. The only one who will know the flips of that day are mafia members. With this much KP we could be looking at upwards of 4 bodies if we don't get good protective roles. That's far too much information to let scum control. Am I correct in how the Janitor role functions? Do you think that's a role we can risk letting scum have? | ||
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On April 04 2013 13:16 yamato77 wrote: There are ways we can play around a role like janitor, but you are right in that town would be better off denying the role completely. Sharrant, what do you think about what I've posted so far? Do you agree or disagree with how I see the game? I'd rather us talk between ourselves than argue with Mocsta. To be honest, I actually had a few nitpicky things in your post that I at first I really didn't like but I think I understand better now. Reading it again you seem to be doing a "stream of consciousness" sort of writing, and I think that set off some alarms early and needlessly. Your more recent posts have been much more to my liking. I'm glad you also see the need to deny roles, however I disagree with your method slightly. I can see how trying to do it based on town reads after the draft order has been revealed could work, but I think that assigning the picks to draft order before it has been revealed would be most effective. On April 04 2013 13:22 Mocsta wrote: Shooting off to lunch. But if that is the case than yes. I think its a good idea to remove from the scum power list. I'm glad we agree. On April 04 2013 13:23 Shelvocke wrote: There are several other roles that can cause problems for people who roleclaim, and you would do very well to think about that. You also have not noticed one of the most dangerous combinations in this game that prevents plans like the one you have. I'm interested to hear this combination. I can see many ways that scum would be able to kill a player knowing their role. Yes, having an extractor AND BloodyCobbler would net them 1 kill per cycle extra. But that's for 2 roles, as opposed to having an assassin and saying "green" every single time and getting 1 kill per cycle extra for only a single role. Now, there are combinations I haven't mentioned because I didn't want to give anyone ideas, if you're thinking of anything involving the politician, there's a good chance I've thought of that as well, there are ways to stop that. But if you think there's something that is specifically of horrendous consequence for this plan, please do elaborate. If this plan is bad I would like you to change my mind, otherwise I would like to change yours. I'm going to bed now, if I get bored I might wander back and read more, but that's doubtful. Good night, everyone. I hope you're all as excited for the draft as I am. | ||
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I'm glad to see there's so much discussion, but I still believe after reading all of it that we need to coordinate to eliminate a few key roles. Not very many, but there's a few roles that are incredibly anti-town that need to be taken care of. Let's try and get everyone on the same page here. Town does not need roles to win the game. They're nice, they're a cool added bonus, but we honestly don't need them. If I had the choice I would rather have every single townie vanilla if it meant mafia were all vanilla and locked at 1 KP. That would be beautiful, and should be an easy win for town. I don't think there's anyone that can disagree with that, that is a severely underpowered set up for scum. How does this relate to the draft order? By using the draft order and a proper picking strategy we can effectively move the town towards this position. There's more than one part to this however. We want as many conflicting draft numbers as possible. This benefits town because the odds are in our favour that town will come out ahead based on random number selection. The most preferrable case being town picks 1-18 and the mafia conflict with 5of those numbers. Obviously this situation is unrealistic as we will have some townies conflict with other townies, but generally the odds are in our favour to come out ahead as long as no one reveals their numbers. We're done there. I don't think there's anymore that can be said. Random number picks favour town. So let's move onto the drafting phase. How can we create the most effective town picks, while simultaneously creating the least effective mafia picks? The most beneficial scenario for town is that every mafia picks a role that town has already chosen. This is highly unlikely, but would be amazing. The least beneficial for town would be townies picking roles that other townies have picked but not the roles mafia did. This is somewhat subjective, but I believe this to be the worst because A) mafia get all their roles B) town does not have information on what those roles are or where in the draft they were chosen. There are other bad scenarios but I think this takes the cake. So how do we move away from the second scenario and move towards the first? First we need to determine the key roles that are too strong for mafia to get at any point. I believe them to be Thief, PoD, Inventor and Janitor. If everyone can agree I would have slots 1-4 on the draft order pick those powers. Why those powers specifically? Because they are all INCREDIBLY anti-town, and are all visible powers. What I mean by visible powers is that we will know when they have been activated either by the night going into a second night, or the kills all being vanished etc. Then we know to lynch into the player that has that role. If town gets one of these roles (except Inventor/thief): Don't use it ever. I know you wanted some super special ultra role, but you're doing more for the town this way. If town gets inventor: Be as pro town as you possibly can be, this is a great role for town to have. We should see lots of bullet proof vests, and similar defensive or investigative items coming out from you. If town gets thief: Sit on it. There's a chance that it may become important later on, but it shouldn't be used early game. If mafia get any of these roles: We'll know exactly which one has the role, so they cannot use it.If we see the power, we lynch into them. So they're effectively VTs except for in one scenario which I will talk about later. So by assigning those 4 roles we have one result: We force a pro town inventor (if mafia oriented inventions come out we know who to lynch), we eliminate both PoD AND Janitor, and possibly cause thief to become a pro town role. And the kicker of this, is that if mafia is one of the top 4 spots we force them to act as a vanilla scum. Should we have a plan after those roles? I don't think so. I think everyone picking what they want after that point is the best solution for town. This will cause the most conflicts with mafia, and as town should generally be higher in the draft order we will have more conflicts for roles with mafia. Everyone past that point should excercise good judgement on which roles they think they should either attempt to get for town, or to deny mafia. Pick something you can play well. Cautions and problems: Problem: Leaving a scum alive with PoD means they can just wait until LyLo or MyLo to activate their power and it will endgame town in most situations. Solution: We should not put the people with these roles above reproach. Everyone in the picking order (1-4) should be examined just as thoroughly as everyone else. I don't think a policy lynch on the power holder is required, we should be able to decide going into a scenario like that if they've been acting pro-town or not. There's also a high possibility of the player being killed with so much KP likely flying around. Problem: Role Swapper and Copy Cat stealing one of the 1-4 roles I don't have an immediate solution to this problem, however copy cat would require them to kill one of those people and use a dayvig right away to steal the role. So they have to waste a kill based on draft order rather than player involvement. They may have to kill the scummiest looking townie to get a role, they may have to kill the towniest townie. Those are the worst and best case scenarios. Role Swapper might be one to look into about halfway down the draft order if someone is confident enough playing as a likely vanilla townie. That would either deny the role, or let us know it was one of the top x picks. At best this plan will deny mafia roles and make them easier to track when we start having flips and claims to back up our information, and quite likely catch them in a lie or display them as having picked an anti-town power later down in the drafting order to be able to get one of the 1-4 roles. At worst this makes mafia have to put in a time commitment to avoid the plan, and denies them 2 out of the 4 roles. I think that's a pretty good worst case scenario. We still deny them half the roles, and we make those roles easier to track because later on we'll be able to determine via draft order and flips where it was likely that copycat and role swapper were chosen. I'm hoping this clarifies my intentions with the plan, as I don't think I properly explained it before. I willspend a few minutes reviewing all that has been posted while I was writing this, please ask anyone questions, or give dissenting opinions. I want this plan to be good enough that everyon will follow it. That means if there's a flaw I need to know it now so we can improve it. I'd like everyone to be on board with this idea, or at least enough of us that we can follow through with the first 4 picks. | ||
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On April 04 2013 23:33 austinmcc wrote: They had people set to pick Janitor/CPR, and marv to RNG between the two at the third spot. If the top players were town, those roles were denied. If they were scum and were planning on SAYING they picked those roles, but taking other powerful roles and having a scumbuddy at the bottom of the list pick up janitor/CPR on the sly, marv RNGing made that a less-desirable option. In order to really scheme and get powerful roles to people low on the list, scum would kind of need marv + one of the top two players to be scum, and that's something that would be hard to keep secret if low-list players use the powers or (1) or (2) die and dont' flip how they should. Basically, mafia has the benefit of planning their picking strategy way better than town does. They can say they're picking x, pick y, and let x fall to a scumbuddy way downt he list. Whereas town members way down the list probably don't pick "powerful" roles for fear they're already gone. Some denial + some RNG keeps scum from being able to plan as much as they want. This is a very good point, but with something like Janitor or PoD it doesn't make much sense (unless the scum will be able to make it multi use. If they give it to a player lower down the list and it is used, we lynch the higher up player and see that he had a different role. Now they have used the 1 shot power AND lost a scum that had his own power. I think this only applies if we're going after something like assassin or CPR doctor, but I like the check regardless. If you have read my plan, how would you feel about using role 5 or 6 (or even both) to RNG and determine if the roles were taken as theys hould be? | ||
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On April 04 2013 23:51 austinmcc wrote: Sharrant, I agree with most of the roles you find powerful (i skipped thief in my list but it should be added with swapper and copy cat). Inventor was a consideration of mine, but the fact that you have to give your inventions to other players weakens it somewhat. Possible that mafia end up implicating themselves slightly if they're only giving inventions to each other, and each player can only receive inventions once. Plus all inventions have to be one-shot, and you can't re-invent the same thing. There are enough restrictions that it limits the ability for the role to cause serious damage. As to denying roles/RNGing later down the list, I think it's a good idea if we can get people to agree on a plan of denial. The fact that mafia has a single factional KP is very important, especially in a game where we could also have a lot of protective roles. They NEED roles to win this, town doesn't. Time favors town, especially in a game where people can be outed based on what they pick, how they use, detective checks, etc. etc. I don't like the idea of having someone too far down the list RNG. Mafia is going to want x role or y role. The further down the list the RNG happens, the higher the chance that: (1) multiple mafioso are above the RNGer, and can pull shennanies; (2) mafia can just risk the RNG, because the chance that RNG steals the role they want to preserve are lower (50% chance at pick 3 last game, 20% chance at pick 6). Okay, so striking Inventor off the list I think thief is more powerful than copycat or roleswapper by far. So we could go 1. PoD 2. Janitor 3. Thief Would you want the RNG on 4, or move it down? I'm unsure about this myself because I see the benefits of both. My gut tells me to leave it on 4 though, and introduce the least confusion. That leaves them a 33% chance to be able to get away with stealing one of the 3 roles we want to deny and only if they end up in one of the top 3 draft spots. It's slightly different if 4 is mafia as well, but I think that would become evident after a period of time. I believe usage of their powers at that point would reveal 2 mafia or at least be a big clue pointing towards them. | ||
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On April 05 2013 00:02 Oatsmaster wrote: oh god dont mention the host as a way of making your point. Please dont. Austin, arent the mafia favoured roles instantly killed when they are outed anyway, because they chose that role = they are mafia? Like we dont need to say 'OH YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AT THE START. SCUM' Also arent there only like 4-5 roles that everyone knows that are best for scum? I just dont see how this discussion is a useful way to spend our time And what, pray tell, is a more important way to spend our time at this very moment? What would you rather be discussing? | ||
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On April 05 2013 00:05 austinmcc wrote: Prince of Darkness is another role that I don't think is as powerful as looks. It's an extra night cycle, which COULD be devastating in large games where mafia has 3 KP or so, but here they just have 1 and their powers. It's a one-shot skip-a-day. It's pardoner but without the information from the day. Because of their limited KP, I don't think it' ALL that strong as it gives all DTs a second check, medics will still be active, etc. etc. I don't think the setup makes it stronger than a multi-vig, when their real concern is most likely to be lack of KP. I don't want to talk more about RNG right at this moment. Big game, want to see more discussion and thoughts from others before we go deeper with that. If mafia get PoD and BC and a vigilante (3 roles total) then on N1 they would be able to kill 6 people potentially. That's why I'm worried about it. The other point is that it is obvious when used. The more I think about it, I come back to PoD and Janitor not needing the RNG check if we know where they are on the list. Perhaps top 5 and go 1. PoD 2. Janitor 3. CPR 4. Asassin with 5 RNGin between 3 and 4. This does leave thief open though, but perhaps someone down the line could check it, I'm not sure. That thought is a little iffy, but I think it lets us cover a lot of ground. Plus assassin can be good as a town role as if they try and kill mafia they cannot accidentally kill a townie. | ||
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On April 05 2013 05:46 strongandbig wrote: this whole discussion is stupid until we get the drafting list btw What is the point of this post as a town member? I actually can't think of a reason to post this. Please enlighten me as to why this was stupid. | ||
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On April 05 2013 08:08 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Just caught up with the thread and it's filled with, well, filler. Can't say I've grown much wiser alignment wise other than Oats giving me town vibes simply for all the prodding in everything. With all these plans of picking or not picking it seems people have forgotten about the RNG option for picking which I still believe is the strongest as it puts scum at a big risk of becoming VT if they go for the strong roles whilst still allowing said town players to potentially pick a strong blue role. It covers both flanks. I'm still waffling about the RNG option. On the one hand I do like how it can cover more bases, but it loses out to me because there's no accountability. If the people at the top RNG between a few roles, yes it leaves options that the scum can end up with vanilla, but if one of the people expected to RNG is a mafia member then the mafia just got two power roles. (assuming we do each person RNG's between 2 roles and have the top 4 players do that. It would cover 8 roles, but potentially give the mafia 2 freeish roles. If we do it and have 4 people RNG between 8 or more roles, then we have the possibility of town overlapping in the top picks, but it's more risky for the scum if they have someone in the top 4. I just don't see it being as effective as having the top 3 people pick strong, and visible power roles such as PoD. | ||
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I think the most important post you've made was this one On April 06 2013 05:07 Keirathi wrote: And an aside: It was a policy to police ONE role (well maybe 2...depends on how Russia works). A role with which no townie SHOULD be shooting anyways. Why are you so adamantly against that? It doesn't make sense, unless you're posturing to protect yourself/someone who is planning to pick America. That's a pretty sly attempt at calling someone scum without actually going anywhere near calling him scum. Right now I have you as a scum read, but I want to hear more from you because I've spent a while debating whether I'm forcing the case in my head. You seemed all over the place during the pick/deny discussion during the draft number pick phase, primarily attacking plans rather than offering criticism, and in general not following a single train of thought. You got incredibly defensive once Caller mentioned you as scum (seriously, 11 posts about it in approximately 4 hours worth of time). You made that snipey comment quoted above, and overall your play feels sterile. You don't feel engaged in the conversation, you don't read like town Keirathi. You read like the Keirathi in GSL Open, and in This Town. What you do not read like is the Keirathi in Red Team or Themed. ##FoS: Keirathi If I'm wrong, prove it to me, but right now I want you to be the first one to hang. | ||
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Can you please explain exactly what it is that made you decide that Mocsta is 100% town. Please explain as clearly as possible, and if you can link to evidence of this from another game that would be appreciated. | ||
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On April 07 2013 04:27 VisceraEyes wrote: Whatever. Kill me then. I can't hunt scum while not a single person in the entire game is taking me seriously. ##Vote: RestrainingOrder Hi, Viscera. I'm pretty much null on your actions, so I want you to help me. Now, the reason I'm null on you is because I know I can't read you. Last game we played I thought I had a slam dunk case on you, and you were town. Now I might be reaching with this, but I want you to help me talk about Keirathi. See, just a short while ago there was talk about why Keirathi was scum, I think there're some really valid points in there. And I think a few others saw it too, but then suddenly the town was dragged off of this and into a spammy little brawl focused on antogonizing you and painting you as scum. Maybe you're scum, maybe you're not, but the way the thread has turned suggests to me you're not. This feels more to me like you're getting attacked the same way that caused Marvellosity to explode when he was town in a recent game. So I want you to talk to me about Keirathi, who after being called out has dissapeared after the cases on him, and I just want your opinion on Rayne because frankly I'm not quite sure how to read him. Do you think this could be mafia Keirathi's team trying to drag the town away from him after he got caught by causing a spammy mess on day 1? Do you think this is more likely town getting in an argument that is not indicative of Keirathi's alignment? And then your opinion on Keirathi himself and Rayne would be great., thank you. | ||
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On April 07 2013 06:40 Vivax wrote: No, two scum won't pick the same numbers ever. It's valuable information. Unless you can give rational explanation you have no argument and only want to keep us in the dark. Vivax, you can find examples in the thread of scum doing this. I believe it was the previous PYP where 3 scum all picked the same numbers for the exact reason you have stated now. I believe numbers are important to look at, but to state that two scum will not pick the same numbers in demonstrably wrong. You have to look at it case by case. You have to look at what was attained by picking the numbers, in your eyes they are completely above suspicion, thus picking the same numbers has obvious value entirely unrelated to the role selection. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + He's off my scum list after these posts. They look much more like his town games. In his scum games he's more political in his posts. In his two scum games he's had disagreements but always contested things conservatively, compared to his town games like Red where he called bullshit twenty or so times on the first day. On April 07 2013 14:57 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP: Oh, what the fuck. Explain the bolded. Because it sounds like made up bullshit. On April 07 2013 15:28 Keirathi wrote: So go look at his filters from past games. Dismissing a meta read because you're too lazy to look at the meta yourself is just...wtfboggle. And my point wasn't that he was just pushing a plan to get himself high in the draft order. Yes, a townie could do that too. What I don't think a townie would do is specifically say that one plan was undeniably the best plan for town, the immediately flip flop on it and say that its a bad plan now, just because a new plan came up that benefits himself more. He's putting himself above the town as a whole; suddenly and for not much reason. (Which I also contend is completely different from what town rayn just did last game.) On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote: @rayn: good, you're back First: ##Unvote Now, let's talk a bit: What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently. You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Then: geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different? Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though. I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind. ##Unvote: Keirathi Regarding Artanis I'm going to do some more reading tonight, but he has some posts that I find quite townie. I think they show that he is trying to contribute, as well as a clear thought process in attempting to help the town determine what is best in the draft phase. On April 04 2013 17:45 Artanis[Xp] wrote: So if I'm getting things right we plan on giving strong town reads effectively VT roles, correct? Though the idea of stopping strong scum roles is appealing, there are a myriad of strong roles in the game and I don't think sacrificing strong townreads that can pick early (and therefore are unlikely to be blocked by anyone) VT roles just to stop scum from picking certain roles is good. 1. They'll know exactly what X players before them picked so they can dodge roles that would otherwise make them VT. 2. Strong townreads end up with a public VT role rather than being able to help town beyond their scumhunting. 3. The townVT to scumVT balance will shift heavily in scum's favour 4. If there's scum before the last strong townread assigned to a scumrole, it could easily be sniped anyway. I think it's best if everyone hides their picks since it'll give scum the least amount of information and prevent them from having safe picks. Gives critical input on a plan as opposed to negative input, and has his first iteration of a plan: Everyone pick as discretely as possible. On April 04 2013 18:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I have a better plan for the Yamato plan, if you do decide to go through with it. If we have people that look suffeciently town, are early in the list and are willing to follow the plan, they could RNG between blocking a role and taking a 'real' role themselves without revealing which one they'd want to pick. It would create a risk too great for scum to pick that role unless they're going to WIFOM about if the town player would actually do it or not, and it'd give a 50% shot for the town player to actually still get a useful role. It's less certain than the Yamato plan but I think it puts town in a better position. It could have the same net effect yet have a higher chance for town to get more blues. Again giving critical input and creating a new plan, or at the very least a new iteration in Yamato's plan. On April 04 2013 22:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote: No one's actually addressed this yet, especially Yamato which I find strange as it's an improvement upon his plan. I'd propose we use it for 2 roles at the most though. Past that, it just becomes too unreliable. I don't like the VT claiming idea. Players that ended up with a VT role are still important to town in one way: Taking hits that would otherwise land on blues. I don't think the info gained on roles is worth this downside. There might be exceptions in certain situations (such as a player high up in the list claiming VT when he tried to pick a scummy role), but as the norm I'd be against it. Brings up his idea again, stating he believes it's an improvement to the plan, and again is applying critical thinking about the picking strategies that others are proposing. I don't see this as "hiding in set up speculation" I see this as someone applying critical thought as to how the town can start the game off with the most advantageous, and start the mafia off with the least. On April 05 2013 08:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: The accountability is a good point actually, I hadn't thought about that yet. Hm. Still think it's better than doing nothing at all though since without any rules at all there's no accountability anyway. Will sleep on it. He takes criticism on his plan well, says he'll take time to think about it. To me it reads really townie,especially because of a later post where he brings up that the route town was going had no accountability. His posts to me show the thought process of someone trying to min/max the drafting system, and follows a plausible planning process. As I said earlier, I'll take a further look into him, and read the cases more thoroughly, but to me he reads as at least decently townie. I'm going to post this now, I'll be reading and writing for a (hopefully) larger post, so if anyone else is going to be on for a bit, let's chat about someone, I'll even let you pick who. | ||
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Sharrant
Canada543 Posts
I think the best two targets tonight are Sinani and Sn0man. At this point neither of them are seeming like they will be here to allow us to actually read them. I'd prefer a shot on Sinani over Sn0man for two reasons. A) I'm a little concerned about Sn0man being shot if he's a townie with a strong power role, or a townie with a strong denial role, hell there's even a bit of concern if he's a mafia with a strong role. I find it much more likely for Mafia to have the copycat power than the town would, meaning they could potentially receive a strong role. B) Sinani looks pretty scummy for the small amount that he has posted. On April 08 2013 06:43 sinani206 wrote: I haven't played with him before, so I don't know his meta, but he's pretty scummy imo. On April 08 2013 06:46 sinani206 wrote: gonzaw are you going to claim exactly what your role is? These quotes especially feels out of place. He picks a really safe target for the shot, but then doesn't bother to push a case at all, AND takes a step back as he pushes his name forward. He's already trying to back away from the shot even as he's proposing it. He clearly doesn't want to push the shot, he clearly does not want to be assosciated with it, but he does want it to happen. He also immediately fishes for your role even though you've revealed that you have at least 1 KP usable during the day. The only reason I see for asking this is because he's on the scum team, and either he or one of his team mates is either BC or the assassin, and is hoping to take a shot on you either before or after you take your shot depending on who you would kill. That's why I'd feel safe in a shot on Sinani. | ||
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