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This thread is intended to be an idea of how we can get the most out of the new siege tank buff(Trust me, I am very mad at this change, I am not endorsing it with this thread.) But regardless the buff does open a lot of doors early game that could be potentially helpful. I can also see the new hell bats being particulararly good in the early game with there new damage buff. One slight problem mech was having was that people were way to defensive with it and in return the protoss got a very sweet setup early on and was able to snowball its self out of control. So this patch may help us get further with mech(but I doubt it will make it viable) so its still an interesting idea to entertain.
Right now I am thinking of some dual fact builds that could lead to some early pushes while still expoing behind them.
One problem with any Factory build in the past was that you always had to add a 2nd gas at the start of your factory. Otherwise you would not be able to research siege and build a tank at the same time. Now with the new patch, you can easily skip this second gas and still get your tank out that already is pre packaged with siege. The new possibiltys here are pretty good. You can still get the second gas and have a ton of extra gas towards an early Raven or a second factory. Or you can skip the second gas and get an expo faster.
Having a faster early game development can lead to some very interesting timings that can help slow down your Toss opponent from snowballing out of control. Which is a big problem we are currently seeing any mech user face in Hots currently.
What are your guys thoughts?
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The raven and hellbat changes are actually a bigger deal as i may actually be able to engage an Air heavy Toss with Thor Raven Viking, and i can do more damage to Archon/immortal/zealot armies.
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nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
It's great against colossi and stalkers, not so great against anything else.
Hellbats lost their bio tag I presume, so this means, reactor them factories, its time to make a shit ton of hellbats!
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On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
It's great against colossi and stalkers, not so great against anything else.
Hellbats lost their bio tag I presume, so this means, reactor them factories, its time to make a shit ton of hellbats!
Yeah I agree, but tanks are quite good vs sentries too.
How is it, Hellbats require armory right?
I guess no siege mode upgrade means that we can spend that gas on an early armory.
I'm thinking of opening 1 rax expand or 16 gas into 2 factories with a reactored rax.
Make marines x2 to deal with MsC and other crap and then swap it to make hellbats when armory is done.
I don't know. It could work out as I can imagine that the timings are quite neat.
I think hellbats still have the bio tag tho.
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United States4883 Posts
Been playing a few games with the new hellbat...wow, zealots don't even exist with these things. Hellbats are WAY strong now. Only issue is that they're even stronger paired with bio than with mech. Can't see why any terran would go mech in TvP when all of bio's problems just got solved.
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On January 10 2013 09:32 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
It's great against colossi and stalkers, not so great against anything else.
Hellbats lost their bio tag I presume, so this means, reactor them factories, its time to make a shit ton of hellbats! Yeah I agree, but tanks are quite good vs sentries too. How is it, Hellbats require armory right? I guess no siege mode upgrade means that we can spend that gas on an early armory. I'm thinking of opening 1 rax expand or 16 gas into 2 factories with a reactored rax. Make marines x2 to deal with MsC and other crap and then swap it to make hellbats when armory is done. I don't know. It could work out as I can imagine that the timings are quite neat. I think hellbats still have the bio tag tho.
Yea,
Alot of people arent taking the hell bat buff into consideration.
They now do 30 damage to zealots right out of the factory without pre ingnitor right out of the factory. I know the aoe got nerfed, but at early stages of the game the direct damage will be more favorable than the aoe. This also makes hell bats better vs stalkers which is a nice buff as well.
Right now I am thinking of a Raven(For PDD)+Tank+Hellbat 2 base push. You would bring 1-3 scvs along the way to lay turrets down just like in BW to stop Air units/Obs. If the toss goes early air then you just delay the push and add some vikings. The idea would be to challenge the third of the Protoss.
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Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras.
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United States4883 Posts
Ravens got a huge buff with the fixed seeker missile. In my opinion, the new seeker missile is how it should have originally been designed. Works really great in the midgame as well as into the lategame in all the matchups. It makes it worth it to get 1-2 ravens early on for not only mobile detection, but a strong AoE spell.
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Played my first TvP, and actually did decent damage with a two fact build, then of course got rolled late game because this patch does ZERO for actually making mech work past early game rofl
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You guys are neglecting ghost mech earlier. It ends up being quite a bit easier to fight immortals with tanks since the extra gas you saved can go into a ghost academy or starport earlier to fight oracles.
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Hellbats are insanelly good right now. As some other said, zealots do not work anymore in TvP with current numbers.
Hellbats are pretty similar to roaches right now. Low cost, masseable (reactor), tanky, good mobility and both shut down zealots hard. Oh and both have (hellbats after this patch) an horrible 1a design.
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this is a non change. what exactly do you plan on doing with a 1 siege tank rush? or even, the saved gas means you get one more siege tank during that minute it takes to research.
i guess if you want to be cheesy as fuck, then prox fac will be pretty strong with this change.
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Raven are amazing. Mech and raven require a looot of gaz so I played on 3 bases, push with tank thor hellbat and 3-4 ravens. You can do crazy damage against a stack protoss army and cover raven from HT with tanks. Hellbat are not usless too, they did well.
It works very well for the moment.
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They seriously need to put blue flame back on hellbat and reduce the anti-light damage. It's freaking 30 damage in AOE!!!
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I would have prefered more tank damage and less hellbat damage. That said TvP mech is now much better.
Early game widow mines are better since detection comes later and will cost more for the Protoss (just the mothership core is not enough). 1-rax FE will be easier to hold. A faster tank with siegemode is excellent for helping holding your FE.
Midgame is now slightly stronger since hellbats being more effecient against Stalkers and Zealots. You can have 1 more Ghost due to the 100 gas you saved earlier.
Lategame is now much better due to Ravens. Even though Void Ray DPS still is OP and needs to be nerfed you can use Ravens to fight both stacked Air armies and killing off Immortals. I think less Ghosts and more Ravens in the lategame is the key to survive Ground/Air switches from Protoss.
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I really don't think this is going to do anything. Tanks can't pressure early against anyone who can use Nexus Overcharge, and tanks are still going to be bad lategame. What's the concern, exactly?
This is going to have a bigger impact in TvZ and TvT.
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On January 10 2013 12:56 Belha wrote:
Hellbats are insanelly good right now. As some other said, zealots do not work anymore in TvP with current numbers. Hellions will be vastly more viable against armored, but did that patch really change that much versus light? The dps increased significantly (from 12.6 with blue flame to 15) but the cones won't overlap nearly as much as they did.
Perhaps it did change a lot, it's just that I'm currently a little confused as to why the impact would be so huge.
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Factory opening defense is now more solid in TvP. The problem still lies in late game transition from mech to raven heavy compositions to combat Protoss air. It's difficult to kill a protoss with a 200/200 mech with a typical composition like archon/lot/immortal already, but this is exacerbated when the protoss transitions to air and the meching player's commitment to mech makes him starved for gas and hence, unable to transition to air as easily as protoss. Not to mention, the cost efficiency of Thors with HIP is horrendus considering that it''s a 6 supply unit dealing lower dps than a stimmed marine. However, defense wise, it's possible to start transitioning to ravens faster since early game terran has been buffed, and taking a 3rd is easier, especially this reduction in 1 minute timing window where the terran without siege can be killed with ease.
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Their short range and slower movement speed will make massing hellbats a tricky task, requiring presplitting to maximize their output. The damage change is a good change, the bonus damage to light on the reaper was just impossible to integrate into a bio build due to its ridiculous gas cost of 50 for a unit with 50 hp.
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On January 10 2013 18:43 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Their short range and slower movement speed will make massing hellbats a tricky task, requiring presplitting to maximize their output. The damage change is a good change, the bonus damage to light on the reaper was just impossible to integrate into a bio build due to its ridiculous gas cost of 50 for a unit with 50 hp.
I can confirm this statement. Just had a game against a zerg. With smaller numbers of helbats, they die faster from surround due to the drastically reduced aoe splash. However, given enough numbers with a perfect 360 arc, a mech line surrounded by helbats will become nearly untouchable by ling flanks and surrounds. This makes early game ling pressure more of a threat but as the game progresses to mid/late, helbats become far more useful in defending tank lines and protecting key units like thors. Also, chargelots die faster which is also a welcome change.
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EPT
