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On January 10 2013 08:48 XXXSmOke wrote:
One problem with any Factory build in the past was that you always had to add a 2nd gas at the start of your factory. Otherwise you would not be able to research siege and build a tank at the same time. Now with the new patch, you can easily skip this second gas and still get your tank out that already is pre packaged with siege. The new possibiltys here are pretty good. You can still get the second gas and have a ton of extra gas towards an early Raven or a second factory. Or you can skip the second gas and get an expo faster.
I've been doing:
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 orbital + marine
build to 3 marines
when you have 100 gas build your factory
after your 3rd marine throw down the tech lab
swap when done, start tank immediately and continue marines
queue up a widow mine and then your gas should accumulate enough for you to start another tank
you'll have a nice excess of minerals cause you didn't take a 2nd gas so you can expand and if you suspect an oracle rush or something get an ebay up in time for any shenanigans
With a couple of marine 4-5 and a tank you can actually push across the map to the toss's base pretty easily. I wouldn't start abusing seige mode until your widow mine gets there. Plus you have to be weary about how early they have their MSC and keep your marines alive from stalker kiting.
Sort of like a BW FD Terran build, you get a nice mineral excess, and you can at anytime just unseige and walk back to your base and be fine against any all ins with marines/tanks/widowmine. Plus you might get the added bonus of denying their expo by burrowing a widow mine and such at the natural or 3rd.
With the delayed second gas makes it sort of hard to tech to a starpot. I think reactor hellion aggression might be the way to go as a followup or for for a fast 3rd CC.
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Disregarding the fact that the Reaper is now useless- it is also now really boring.
The bonus damage against Light was their primary advantage as opposed to Marines. Now, they're a really fast but really awful Marine that regenerates HP. And marines can shoot air, and can stim. And can, you know, fight stuff effectively. And they don't cost 50 gas each.
From a strength perspective, for 50m/50g the Reaper had better bring something pretty awesome to the table to ever justify building it over a marine. Hell, Medivacs make your marines regenerate HP too- so the only reason the Reaper as it now stands has any purpose whatsoever is that Medivacs have a much higher tech requirement than Medics. That is literally it. Once you have even a single Medivac, every Reaper is just a Marine with no stim, which also costs way more to acquire.
And even ignoring that, from a design perspective the Reaper needs something even just to differentiate it, and make it more than a bad marine that cannot attack air units.
And before anyone replies that they are fast and have cliff jump- that's nice, I know that. Do you really think either of those things makes it sufficiently functionally different from a Marine to justify its existence? We're talking about Blizzard here- people who thought the Lurker (one of the best units in any RTS ever) should be removed because of the god damn Baneling (oooh I know! Let's make a kamikaze unit!). My point is that Reapers and Marines at the moment both shoot stuff- and do nothing else- and one of the two is much better at the job.
Time for crazy ideas for the Reaper. Anyone think giving the Reaper mines to lay is a good idea? No? How about a grenade to throw? Or timed satchel charge? Anything. Something that is actually dangerous and kill-ish and deserving of the name REAPER.
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Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran.
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in TvP the new speed of reaper gives you amazing scouting ability. for a standard 1 rax expo i build a reaper as soon as i get 50 gas and i use him for all the scouting. as it is very fast you have time to scout the P base and also proxy pylons expands and so on. very very useful and don't even need a techlab
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On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran.
It is pretty much only a really earlygame scout. Yes I expect them to be seen in pretty much every matchup, but I also expect it to be extremely rare that more than 2-3 of them are build in a game.
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On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran.
Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan.
Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50.
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After playing a few games, the new Hellbats are great vs buildings
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What about hit-and-run harassment with reapers comparable to phoenix? You could get in with 3-4, easily kill a few probes and get out as soon as defence arrives, then heal up and repeat. Isn't it feasible?
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On January 11 2013 09:15 NeWnAr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
Sight. None of them have 13 range sight. Scan. Terran has it. Gives the extra 1 or 2 sight range you need Marines beside tanks. Kills observers that are revealed with scan.
On 1 base, a scan will not hold out long enough to do good damage. 2 or more scans will hurt your econ very hard. You can not even spam your scan so after 1 scan you're out.
Your theory is not practical, upload a replay and you can show us how it is done.
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Did a few tests and turns out that a proxy reaper comes 45 seconds before the first stalker pops out - if you happen to play 13 gate, 15 gas and skip the first zealot + MsC.
Terran can do some weird proxy reaper into tank/hellbat/cloakshee push that hits around 7-9 minutes depending on how crazy you wanna get. The new reaper is really brutal against protoss as it will punish any player that goes for an eco opening and will provide excellent scouting during the early- and midgame. It is literally impossible to get a stalker out in time even if protoss decides to not play greedy.
Proxy widowmines have also become much more lethal. The first mine will be done at around 4:45 whereas the first observer comes out of the robo at ~6:10... It now takes some bronze-league micro from the terran to screw that up ^^
The patch was just terrible in almost every way regarding the TvP early game. Terran received like 2 BO instakills and their early game timings have been buffed beyond believe while the lategame mech vs. skytoss has not been targeted in any way, shape or form.
On January 12 2013 00:06 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 09:15 NeWnAr wrote:On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
Sight. None of them have 13 range sight. Scan. Terran has it. Gives the extra 1 or 2 sight range you need Marines beside tanks. Kills observers that are revealed with scan. On 1 base, a scan will not hold out long enough to do good damage. 2 or more scans will hurt your econ very hard. You can not even spam your scan so after 1 scan you're out. Your theory is not practical, upload a replay and you can show us how it is done.
Sorry, but if you lose your siege tank push because you let an overcharged nexus kill your siegetanks, you are doing something very very wrong.
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On January 10 2013 23:25 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras. lol i totally disagree with reaper being useless , I love the changes in the reaper they are going in the right direction . I used them in every matchup i tested the new reaper and i think that those change are so great. 1) remove of the vision up cliff -> increase the risk/tension of the reaper harass which is good because it was way too easy to harass with this ability. allow good positionned marines to pick off reapers. 2) increase speed without upgrades anymore : fantastic up that people don't seem to care about. this basically allow you to outrun stalkers and MsC vs P and is good vs Z too for the same reason with queens. as dommage vs stalkers and queens didn't moved you can still pick off those units if u manage to isolate one (which is more easy with the speed upgrade). this also punish harder a bad positionnning of your opponent which is good imo. 3) nerf of the dommage vs light unit : main impact in TvT because the basic defense is marine and it is light. don't affect so much TvZ because even it's becoming more difficult to kill lings early on you can quit them with so much more ease. vs Protoss more difficult to kill Zealot but com'on who is using reaper to kill zealot as main purpose anyway.. this nerf is understandable as you can move faster to mineral line it is expected you kill probe slower. This also allow zerg to counter reaper with speedlings and not forcing him to roach. 4) produce reaper without techlab : awesome as it allow you to put pressure on with more than 1 rax and still expand very fast . for example 3 rax reaper you econ 150 min 75 gas which is huge on early game. reactor reaper seems nice too didn't tested yet though. overall : nerf reaper in TvT because of the remove of both light dmg and cliff vision huge buff vs Z and P as you can now harass with less investment on tech (no tech lab no need upgrade on fac anymore which represent as an example for a 3rax reaper an economy of 300 mineral 175 gas on very early game which is huuuuuuge) and the nerf of dmg doesnt impact so much those matchup as lings and Zealot are no threat or priority target of reaper anyway. they seems to be in the good direction we wanted nerf reaper in TvT this patch clearly nerf reaper in TvT we wanted more use of reaper in TvZ TvP this patch provide good buff to reaper harass vs those race. why whine so much? maybe a later lategame upgrade could be put in to allow reaper being usefull lategame. like an upgrade improving dmg vs light again or giving back grenade vs building .
We wanted?
How do you assume that you know what other people want.
What I, personally, want is a harassbased unit that works in a similar way as the mutalisk. Its pretty efficient at harassing opposing bases, but still somewhat acceptable in a battle (unlike the current reaper).
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On January 12 2013 00:23 Hider wrote:
We wanted?
How do you assume that you know what other people want.
What I, personally, want is a harassbased unit that works in a similar way as the mutalisk. Its pretty efficient at harassing opposing bases, but still somewhat acceptable in a battle (unlike the current reaper).
Because anything blizzard wants is what everyone wants, and is always better for the game, obviously.
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In regards to insta-siege tanks, why can't the Toss player load up on the natural hard counter (Immortals)?
Granted the timing favors the Terran since the Tech Lab can be built on the Rax then swapped to the Factory.
Meanwhile, has anyone actually tested if Reactor Rax can produce 2 reapers concurrently?
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On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50.
More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes?
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is there some kind of opening for tvp that doesnt get u behind severly or is cheesy? some solid opening that doesnt die to stupid random shit
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On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes?
There's more factors than just "to use a reaper or to use a scan". There's more to reaper's cost than just 50/50. A reapers takes almost twice as long to build as a marine, requires gas income, which takes significantly longer to build up, AND requires more than one reaper if you want to use the reaper for anything other than scouting. Basically, there's no reason to build more than one reaper because you are getting more diminishing returns from building more than one. For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes and then run back and be a lot more cost efficient than if I sent in 2 reapers to do the same thing and not do any damage. If your opponent is really cautious about hiding hidden tech and they already know that you're using a reaper than they're going to make sure that the reaper doesn't see anything, forcing you to use a scan anyway. And I don't get it. How is the current reaper raising the skillcap more than the old reaper did? You're telling me that a unit with more tools and flexibility is lowering the skillcap? I guess making the unit only good at one role and making the unit faster so it's easy to do that role is "raising" the skillcap.
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On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes?
Eh I wrote less efficient than a scan in the previous sentence, so I obviously compare it to the scan. Doesn't really make sense to compare cross race units.
This can, however, be fixable by reducing costs (which i expect them too), but it doesn't change the fact that they missed the opportunity to create one of the most interesting units in the game (yeh the reaper could be so awesome if done correctly).
Oh btw, the reaper is way more expensive than a mule. The present value of a mule is closer to 150 than 240/270. Also there is an opporutnity costs related to the reaper as you could have produced marines/maurauders instead
You get the scan immediately, but the reaper comes in 1 minut, which again increases the "true" cost of the reaper compared to that of scanning.
Against raising the skill cap?
Joking?
If you think increased scouting options is the best way of increasing the skill cap, then i don't know what to tell you.
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On January 12 2013 01:57 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
is there some kind of opening for tvp that doesnt get u behind severly or is cheesy? some solid opening that doesnt die to stupid random shit
I'm starting with a reaper expand for scout info on what tech he is going, followed by taking the other gas to either go tanks against a blink allin or vikings for oracles.
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The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ
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Has anyone tried 1 raven worker harass? IE, 2 seeker missiles directly into the worker line?
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EPT
