|
On January 12 2013 07:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 06:55 Huragius wrote:On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation. And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'? I feel that is a safe assumption to make any time new patch notes are released. Not everyone, but there are people who just look at the numbers and let the theory-craft machine go to work.
typically that works. Like the warhound and the oracle's old entomb could have been avoided by proper theorycrafting.
|
On January 12 2013 07:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 07:15 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 06:55 Huragius wrote:On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation. And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'? I feel that is a safe assumption to make any time new patch notes are released. Not everyone, but there are people who just look at the numbers and let the theory-craft machine go to work. typically that works. Like the warhound and the oracle's old entomb could have been avoided by proper theorycrafting.
Sometimes I feel by the way blizzard talks they like to theorycraft more than test things, hence changes like the ones we get in this patch.
|
The patch came at a lucky timing, so many HotS showmatches. And people actually try out reapers there and its just too funny. But Spoon Reapers give me this old broodwar worker scout micro feeling a bit. Since the opponent can't really kill them early on.
Then again I can just build a proxy racks and lift it and scout.
|
On January 12 2013 06:32 ledarsi wrote:
While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now.
Wow, you know nothing.
You apparently think there are ZERO uses for tanks in TvP. Gumiho, Byun, MMA, Bomber, that have utilized builds that use tanks at some point, as to not die to certain pushes. Like going 1 rax FE into cloak banshee, Gumiho gets a couple of tanks in order to not die to a mass gate counter if his banshee can't do damage or pin him inside of his base.
100/100 resources is a huge money sink. The point is you don't even need a second gas to have a tank + seige mode. Freeing up on gas is huge for mineral income. Lets you get a faster CC, ebay, rax, etc.
Late game TvP tank, yeah probably hasn't changed much, but at least if you build an early factory you have more flexibility going into the midgame and lategame.
|
On January 14 2013 17:09 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 06:32 ledarsi wrote:
While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now. Wow, you know nothing. You apparently think there are ZERO uses for tanks in TvP. Gumiho, Byun, MMA, Bomber, that have utilized builds that use tanks at some point, as to not die to certain pushes. Like going 1 rax FE into cloak banshee, Gumiho gets a couple of tanks in order to not die to a mass gate counter if his banshee can't do damage or pin him inside of his base. 100/100 resources is a huge money sink. The point is you don't even need a second gas to have a tank + seige mode. Freeing up on gas is huge for mineral income. Lets you get a faster CC, ebay, rax, etc. Late game TvP tank, yeah probably hasn't changed much, but at least if you build an early factory you have more flexibility going into the midgame and lategame.
I am working with tanks to compliment my bio force. To hold early agression and keep me alive in the mid game. Combined with armory + armor upgrades that also effect air units. What i am working on is having a nice, more flued transition into a very powerful late game army.
My problem right now is a solid late-game army. I've worked with:
- Mass Ghost, Viking and a couple of medivacs.
- Mass BC and a couple of ghosts.
Skytoss deathball seems like a huge problem with my 2 compositions. Does anybody know, or have suggestions on my late-game army that can compete with a solid Sky toss + Htemplar army?
Much appreciated.
|
United States4883 Posts
On January 15 2013 02:53 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 17:09 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:On January 12 2013 06:32 ledarsi wrote:
While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now. Wow, you know nothing. You apparently think there are ZERO uses for tanks in TvP. Gumiho, Byun, MMA, Bomber, that have utilized builds that use tanks at some point, as to not die to certain pushes. Like going 1 rax FE into cloak banshee, Gumiho gets a couple of tanks in order to not die to a mass gate counter if his banshee can't do damage or pin him inside of his base. 100/100 resources is a huge money sink. The point is you don't even need a second gas to have a tank + seige mode. Freeing up on gas is huge for mineral income. Lets you get a faster CC, ebay, rax, etc. Late game TvP tank, yeah probably hasn't changed much, but at least if you build an early factory you have more flexibility going into the midgame and lategame. I am working with tanks to compliment my bio force. To hold early agression and keep me alive in the mid game. Combined with armory + armor upgrades that also effect air units. What i am working on is having a nice, more flued transition into a very powerful late game army. My problem right now is a solid late-game army. I've worked with: - Mass Ghost, Viking and a couple of medivacs. - Mass BC and a couple of ghosts. Skytoss deathball seems like a huge problem with my 2 compositions. Does anybody know, or have suggestions on my late-game army that can compete with a solid Sky toss + Htemplar army? Much appreciated.
Quite honestly, the best composition I've come up with to deal with skytoss is just MASS MASS vikings and around 10-12 ravens. You can also add in a handful of mines and thors to deal with any warpin ground threat; burrowing about 8 mines under the sky fleet (which has to manually target the mines if in range of your vikings) will decimate packs of clumped void rays or carriers.
I like to just drop around 10 PDDs in an area that I want to cover, and that basically forces protoss into a position where they can't engage there or risk carriers getting picked off with vikings. With this, you can cover about 2 areas with the PDDs which also serve as flying spotters.
This is just my experience though. I'm not sure I liked BCs against protoss, even before the tempests. Quite honestly, I would just avoid BCs altogether against skytoss. I'm sure it's also good to have ghosts out for EMP or nuke harass. You can also trade for ghosts/ravens/vikings safely by sending 3-4 tanks + hellbats at a time to outlying bases to clean them up.
|
On January 14 2013 17:09 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 06:32 ledarsi wrote:
While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now. Wow, you know nothing. You apparently think there are ZERO uses for tanks in TvP. Gumiho, Byun, MMA, Bomber, that have utilized builds that use tanks at some point, as to not die to certain pushes. Like going 1 rax FE into cloak banshee, Gumiho gets a couple of tanks in order to not die to a mass gate counter if his banshee can't do damage or pin him inside of his base. 100/100 resources is a huge money sink. The point is you don't even need a second gas to have a tank + seige mode. Freeing up on gas is huge for mineral income. Lets you get a faster CC, ebay, rax, etc. Late game TvP tank, yeah probably hasn't changed much, but at least if you build an early factory you have more flexibility going into the midgame and lategame.
So your argument is that, sometimes, tanks are built. Therefore they aren't underpowered? Are you serious?
100m/100g is significant early in the game. Like.... for only building 1-2 tanks early on, saving 100 gas is a big deal. But only building 1-2 tanks to avoid dying to a particular gateway timing doesn't really count as "tank usage" anyway. You saying that "oh, technically tanks do actually have one use." is very silly, even if it were true.
However it really matters in TvT, where a one gas two tank push is now considerably faster, and it was a decent build before. Also in TvZ where marine tank is completely standard.
I'm talking actually building tanks in TvP. Which nobody does, because they well and truly suck. You can't build lots of tanks in TvP because you are going to get crushed by Protoss units. It almost doesn't matter what, but obviously there are Immortals and now Tempests as major problem units.
If you actually want to build a significant number of tanks, that 100m/100g is not nearly as relevant. Leaving the siege tech research (or even making it more expensive) and buffing the tank would make them less accessible early, and stronger to actually build.
|
(just because there may be a niche use for a unit, doesn't mean they aren't underpowered, or that they are "viable")
|
On January 12 2013 06:55 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation. And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'?
My statement was directed at people who are guilty of theory crafting/complaining without playing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
