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On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ
Actually it does!
It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change.
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On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change.
Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in.
Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker.
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On January 12 2013 02:16 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes? Eh I wrote less efficient than a scan in the previous sentence, so I obviously compare it to the scan. Doesn't really make sense to compare cross race units. This can, however, be fixable by reducing costs (which i expect them too), but it doesn't change the fact that they missed the opportunity to create one of the most interesting units in the game (yeh the reaper could be so awesome if done correctly). Oh btw, the reaper is way more expensive than a mule. The present value of a mule is closer to 150 than 240/270. Also there is an opporutnity costs related to the reaper as you could have produced marines/maurauders instead You get the scan immediately, but the reaper comes in 1 minut, which again increases the "true" cost of the reaper compared to that of scanning. Against raising the skill cap? Joking? If you think increased scouting options is the best way of increasing the skill cap, then i don't know what to tell you.
Your spin on your post doesn't make any sense given the post you were responding to (which ended with "It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran.") but you are not a good writer (in English at least) so I will be charitable and assume you're telling the truth and not just backtracking on what you said.
And of course scouting raises the skill cap because it rewards players who 1) spend the apm and "attention" to scout and 2) are intelligent enough to react properly to what they see. If you do not think scouting is an essential part of the game and part of skillful play then I don't know what to tell you. Why would you react negatively to something that gives good players the ability to scout better? If you want mech to be more feasible this is potentially an indirect way of allowing mech players to play way greedier in the early phase of the game, which will make Terran mid and late game more powerful. Terran used to be pretty scary against zerg in all phases of the game until the queen buff allowed Zerg to play way, way greedier. Now they seem pretty much impotent in the late game. Will this (and the siege tank) change have the opposite effect for tvp? Who knows at this point?
I'm curious. Since you're using "present value" terms, how are you discounting the value of the mule? (I'm expecting a good laugh when I hear your discounting methodology but I'm prepared to be surprised.)
As to your opportunity cost point, there is also an opportunity cost of the scan as a scouting tool (other than the loss of earlier minerals and relative to using the reaper as a scout) namely the radius of the scan and the number of potential locations to hide tech, the fact a scan of the main won't necessarily tell you whether your opponent has expanded, etc. This isn't to say of course that a reaper will necessarily always be better than a scan; it depends on maps, matchups, builds, playstyles, etc. The question is a more subtle one that will require the pros to test it out and see it's effectiveness. The new reaper's utility (primarily as a scout) is not something, as you and your partner the Durpp guy would have us believe, that can simply be dismissed, especially in the absence of having lots of people try it out to see whether it's effective.
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On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker.
Toss's always gets a stalker?
I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more.
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On January 12 2013 04:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker. Toss's always gets a stalker? I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more.
People will invent new, super dumb, all-in. For where there is a will, there is a way.
In the opening of the game, a protoss will always build at least one stalker to poke around and scout, but I never really want to build a second one for quite some time. If a reaper shows up in my base, I always feel the need to get that second stalker to hang out at home in case that one reaper becomes 5 reapers, followed up by a dumb amount of marines. This is all pre-robo and really reliable scouting.
It is one of those things where you build it the unit to feel safe against a real dumb all in, because if you don't and it happens, you feel super stupid.
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On January 12 2013 04:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:11 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker. Toss's always gets a stalker? I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more. People will invent new, super dumb, all-in. For where there is a will, there is a way. In the opening of the game, a protoss will always build at least one stalker to poke around and scout, but I never really want to build a second one for quite some time. If a reaper shows up in my base, I always feel the need to get that second stalker to hang out at home in case that one reaper becomes 5 reapers, followed up by a dumb amount of marines. This is all pre-robo and really reliable scouting. It is one of those things where you build it the unit to feel safe against a real dumb all in, because if you don't and it happens, you feel super stupid.
What kind of opening are you implying the terran does then?
If he opens reaper before anything else, then this will probably time out with your stalker being out to counter it. If he gets marines first and then 1 reaper, you may find your self in a situation where your stalker is poking at his bunker while the terrans reaper is harassing your main, but doesn't that correspond roughly to when warp tech is finished?
Also if the terran opens reaper reaper he probably delays his expo in order to gas and then he has to do damage. Against a toss chronoing probes he will get a lot alot behind, and those there is just no way this build will get standard.
Also I think most terrans that fast expands prefers an earler reactor/tech lab for stim/factory so that he can drop, rather than spending 50 gas on reapers (unless he goes 1 rax expo into double gas but that is generally unsafe).
So yeh to sum up, its possible that there will be developed some kind of stupid cheese, but every way you look at it, it doesn't make sense to build the reaper if you are trying to play a solid style.
Even though scanning is cheaper than building a reaper, most pro's (and me) do not even scan early game as you simply can be safe against everything by building 2 bunkers/turrets blindly etc. So unless there is some kind of signifcant cost reduction to the reaper, it just won't be that useful.
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On January 12 2013 02:06 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes? There's more factors than just "to use a reaper or to use a scan". There's more to reaper's cost than just 50/50. A reapers takes almost twice as long to build as a marine, requires gas income, which takes significantly longer to build up, AND requires more than one reaper if you want to use the reaper for anything other than scouting. Basically, there's no reason to build more than one reaper because you are getting more diminishing returns from building more than one. For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes and then run back and be a lot more cost efficient than if I sent in 2 reapers to do the same thing and not do any damage. If your opponent is really cautious about hiding hidden tech and they already know that you're using a reaper than they're going to make sure that the reaper doesn't see anything, forcing you to use a scan anyway. And I don't get it. How is the current reaper raising the skillcap more than the old reaper did? You're telling me that a unit with more tools and flexibility is lowering the skillcap? I guess making the unit only good at one role and making the unit faster so it's easy to do that role is "raising" the skillcap.
If the comparison is between the new and old reaper then i agree with you, they've limited the utility of this reaper (probably for the better) and thus it's not worth the APM to use it to harass worker lines. If the comparison is between using the reaper and using a scan to scout, which was clearly the focus of my post, then there is less room for debate -- it takes more effort to scout with a reaper than to scout with a scan.
Also as usual your post contains weird statements that make me think you never, ever play SC2 or HoTS. For example, you write, "For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes." What planet do you live on where you send out two marines to scout and "snipe some probes". Sending two marines out by themselves with no follow up at a high level should never ever net you a probe kill and, depending on when you send them, your two marines are likely to get killed by a zealot or stalker. If you send them well before 5:00, I'm not sure about the timing but perhaps they can walk into the main base but then why wouldn't you send an scv? Also if you send them too early they'll likely die before the expansion is put down and you'll be left wondering whether the expansion went down or your opponent threw down three more gateways and is 4 gating you. In all seriousness, which league are you in and do you play WOL or HoTS at all?
To show you that I can be reasonable: I will note that I agree with you that there likely is no reason to build more than reaper now, at least in the early game. If you use reapers as scouting lings it might not be a bad idea to have two or three to try to control the watch towers, when possible, to scout for hidden tech, to scout for a third, etc. But there does not seem to be any incentive to mass them and they are essentially just scouts now, which strikes me as fine.
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On January 12 2013 04:27 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:20 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 04:11 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker. Toss's always gets a stalker? I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more. People will invent new, super dumb, all-in. For where there is a will, there is a way. In the opening of the game, a protoss will always build at least one stalker to poke around and scout, but I never really want to build a second one for quite some time. If a reaper shows up in my base, I always feel the need to get that second stalker to hang out at home in case that one reaper becomes 5 reapers, followed up by a dumb amount of marines. This is all pre-robo and really reliable scouting. It is one of those things where you build it the unit to feel safe against a real dumb all in, because if you don't and it happens, you feel super stupid. What kind of opening are you implying the terran does then? If he opens reaper before anything else, then this will probably time out with your stalker being out to counter it. If he gets marines first and then 1 reaper, you may find your self in a situation where your stalker is poking at his bunker while the terrans reaper is harassing your main, but doesn't that correspond roughly to when warp tech is finished? Also if the terran opens reaper reaper he probably delays his expo in order to gas and then he has to do damage. Against a toss chronoing probes he will get a lot alot behind, and those there is just no way this build will get standard. Also I think most terrans that fast expands prefers and early reactor/tech lab for stim/factory so that he can drop, rather than spending 50 gas on reapers (unless he goes 1 rax expo into double gas but that is generally unsafe). So yeh to sum up, its possible that there will be developed some kind of stupid cheese, but every way you look at it, it doesn't make sense to build the reaper if you are trying to play a solid style.
I am assuming the terran is doing a 1 rax, blocking the ramp to deny further scouting and building the reaper off of that. If I could not confirm with my first stalker they were investing their gas is something else that was not more reapers, I would feel mildly worried about some dumb all-in, since it all looks the same without the need for a tech-lab. Depending on how you invest chrono-boost, warpgate can finish well after the first reaper hits your base and starts messing around. That reaper would make me field a second stalker, rather than build a sentry and focus on expanding and then getting more warpgates.
This is all super early stuff, sub 30 supply, but it matters. This is the time when the protoss has almost no information on the terran beyond “there be gas and a barracks” and they need to decide how to invest. Every protoss has invested poorly in the early game and lost to an all in or some kind of early pressure because the did not have enough standing units.
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On January 12 2013 04:33 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 02:06 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes? There's more factors than just "to use a reaper or to use a scan". There's more to reaper's cost than just 50/50. A reapers takes almost twice as long to build as a marine, requires gas income, which takes significantly longer to build up, AND requires more than one reaper if you want to use the reaper for anything other than scouting. Basically, there's no reason to build more than one reaper because you are getting more diminishing returns from building more than one. For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes and then run back and be a lot more cost efficient than if I sent in 2 reapers to do the same thing and not do any damage. If your opponent is really cautious about hiding hidden tech and they already know that you're using a reaper than they're going to make sure that the reaper doesn't see anything, forcing you to use a scan anyway. And I don't get it. How is the current reaper raising the skillcap more than the old reaper did? You're telling me that a unit with more tools and flexibility is lowering the skillcap? I guess making the unit only good at one role and making the unit faster so it's easy to do that role is "raising" the skillcap. If the comparison is between the new and old reaper then i agree with you, they've limited the utility of this reaper (probably for the better) and thus it's not worth the APM to use it to harass worker lines. If the comparison is between using the reaper and using a scan to scout, which was clearly the focus of my post, then there is less room for debate -- it takes more effort to scout with a reaper than to scout with a scan. Also as usual your post contains weird statements that make me think you never, ever play SC2 or HoTS. For example, you write, "For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes." What planet do you live on where you send out two marines to scout and "snipe some probes". Sending two marines out by themselves with no follow up at a high level should never ever net you a probe kill and, depending on when you send them, your two marines are likely to get killed by a zealot or stalker. If you send them well before 5:00, I'm not sure about the timing but perhaps they can walk into the main base but then why wouldn't you send an scv? Also if you send them too early they'll likely die before the expansion is put down and you'll be left wondering whether the expansion went down or your opponent threw down three more gateways and is 4 gating you. In all seriousness, which league are you in and do you play WOL or HoTS at all? To show you that I can be reasonable: I will note that I agree with you that there likely is no reason to build more than reaper now, at least in the early game. If you use reapers as scouting lings it might not be a bad idea to have two or three to try to control the watch towers, when possible, to scout for hidden tech, to scout for a third, etc. But there does not seem to be any incentive to mass them and they are essentially just scouts now, which strikes me as fine.
While I agree with you that marines can't really scout a toss early on (the reaper will be better at that), using a reaper will almost never be worthwhile in the early game (as I previosuly argued). That brings us to the midgame where you argue that you can use them to scout for 3rd etc; In theory this sounds viable, but then reality strikes.
At the time you want to to scout for whether the protoss takes a 3rd, then you are the one (as the terran player) who has map control. The protoss will never take a 3rd without you knowing it, and due to drop play you can easily see everything the protoss can do. And think about it this way; if the protoss can deny dropship harass, he can probably deny reapers as well.
In a tvt (you are the bio player he is the mech player) then the same rules applies as in the tvp example (the bio player has map control), and the mech player likely has hellions out so he can easily scout whether the terran takes a 3rd as well.
But that knowledge is actually close to useless, as it doesn't matter as a meching terran whether the bio player takes a quick 3rd or a semilate 3rd or plans to do a 2 base all ins(which isn't viable in bio vs mech).
You could argue that they could be usefull to scout for air transitions but even then its just not very certain that the reapers will scout anything as it will get easily shutdown due to mass units being out all over the map, and you generally want to minimize unnecessacary actions, so you rather just scan his main/natural/3rd.
Tvz, typically the teran has hellions/widow mines and will almost always know when a zerg player takes a 3rd (which typically will be before we get into midgame), and in the mid/late-game he will ahve creep eveywhere so your chances of seeing anything will be close to 0.
Its possible though that it can be usefull if you use specific builds where you open bio and want to scout whether your oppoenent goes for an allin. Since you have no hellions out, you can't use them. So you consider scanning but realize that your opponent could have his tech either at the natural or the main, so you opt to get a reaper. But even in that special case it may turn out to be more efficient just to get 1-2 blind bunkers rather than a reaper.
So let me instead suggest which role I belive the reaper should have;
Mainly as a mobile harass unit oriented unit that still is okay'ish (rather than terrible) in a battle - similar to the role the mutalisk.
In WOL the reaper is such a goddamn fun unit to actually run around with and harass bases, but it is just such a shame that is completely useless in battles, which means it will never be anything but a niche unit if it isn't redesigned in the correct way.
I would very much appreciate if it became viable to build 10-15 reapers in the mid/late game and use them to harass constantly. This would reward great mechanics and multitasking skills.
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On January 12 2013 04:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:27 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 04:20 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 04:11 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker. Toss's always gets a stalker? I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more. People will invent new, super dumb, all-in. For where there is a will, there is a way. In the opening of the game, a protoss will always build at least one stalker to poke around and scout, but I never really want to build a second one for quite some time. If a reaper shows up in my base, I always feel the need to get that second stalker to hang out at home in case that one reaper becomes 5 reapers, followed up by a dumb amount of marines. This is all pre-robo and really reliable scouting. It is one of those things where you build it the unit to feel safe against a real dumb all in, because if you don't and it happens, you feel super stupid. What kind of opening are you implying the terran does then? If he opens reaper before anything else, then this will probably time out with your stalker being out to counter it. If he gets marines first and then 1 reaper, you may find your self in a situation where your stalker is poking at his bunker while the terrans reaper is harassing your main, but doesn't that correspond roughly to when warp tech is finished? Also if the terran opens reaper reaper he probably delays his expo in order to gas and then he has to do damage. Against a toss chronoing probes he will get a lot alot behind, and those there is just no way this build will get standard. Also I think most terrans that fast expands prefers and early reactor/tech lab for stim/factory so that he can drop, rather than spending 50 gas on reapers (unless he goes 1 rax expo into double gas but that is generally unsafe). So yeh to sum up, its possible that there will be developed some kind of stupid cheese, but every way you look at it, it doesn't make sense to build the reaper if you are trying to play a solid style. I am assuming the terran is doing a 1 rax, blocking the ramp to deny further scouting and building the reaper off of that. If I could not confirm with my first stalker they were investing their gas is something else that was not more reapers, I would feel mildly worried about some dumb all-in, since it all looks the same without the need for a tech-lab. Depending on how you invest chrono-boost, warpgate can finish well after the first reaper hits your base and starts messing around. That reaper would make me field a second stalker, rather than build a sentry and focus on expanding and then getting more warpgates. This is all super early stuff, sub 30 supply, but it matters. This is the time when the protoss has almost no information on the terran beyond “there be gas and a barracks” and they need to decide how to invest. Every protoss has invested poorly in the early game and lost to an all in or some kind of early pressure because the did not have enough standing units.
But that is what your initial scouting probe is for (right?); to scout whether he goes gasless or gets a gas.-
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Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation.
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On January 12 2013 04:33 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 02:06 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes? There's more factors than just "to use a reaper or to use a scan". There's more to reaper's cost than just 50/50. A reapers takes almost twice as long to build as a marine, requires gas income, which takes significantly longer to build up, AND requires more than one reaper if you want to use the reaper for anything other than scouting. Basically, there's no reason to build more than one reaper because you are getting more diminishing returns from building more than one. For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes and then run back and be a lot more cost efficient than if I sent in 2 reapers to do the same thing and not do any damage. If your opponent is really cautious about hiding hidden tech and they already know that you're using a reaper than they're going to make sure that the reaper doesn't see anything, forcing you to use a scan anyway. And I don't get it. How is the current reaper raising the skillcap more than the old reaper did? You're telling me that a unit with more tools and flexibility is lowering the skillcap? I guess making the unit only good at one role and making the unit faster so it's easy to do that role is "raising" the skillcap. If the comparison is between the new and old reaper then i agree with you, they've limited the utility of this reaper (probably for the better) and thus it's not worth the APM to use it to harass worker lines. If the comparison is between using the reaper and using a scan to scout, which was clearly the focus of my post, then there is less room for debate -- it takes more effort to scout with a reaper than to scout with a scan. Also as usual your post contains weird statements that make me think you never, ever play SC2 or HoTS. For example, you write, "For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes." What planet do you live on where you send out two marines to scout and "snipe some probes". Sending two marines out by themselves with no follow up at a high level should never ever net you a probe kill and, depending on when you send them, your two marines are likely to get killed by a zealot or stalker. If you send them well before 5:00, I'm not sure about the timing but perhaps they can walk into the main base but then why wouldn't you send an scv? Also if you send them too early they'll likely die before the expansion is put down and you'll be left wondering whether the expansion went down or your opponent threw down three more gateways and is 4 gating you. In all seriousness, which league are you in and do you play WOL or HoTS at all? To show you that I can be reasonable: I will note that I agree with you that there likely is no reason to build more than reaper now, at least in the early game. If you use reapers as scouting lings it might not be a bad idea to have two or three to try to control the watch towers, when possible, to scout for hidden tech, to scout for a third, etc. But there does not seem to be any incentive to mass them and they are essentially just scouts now, which strikes me as fine.
I never meant that the marines went inside the protoss base, I was making the point that you could use 2 marines to check for an expansion and essentially it'd be more cost effective. It's called a comparison, where you compare two scenarios and point out the difference between them. None of them are realistic because there would be no reason you build more than one reaper, and you would more likely use your scv to scout. I was just making the point that building more than one reaper was pointless. I mean jeez, does everything you have to say have to question my intelligence with your elitist attitude?
And how would would it change whether you used a reaper for scouting as opposed to an scv or a marine? SCVs and marines give you much more utility overall, and if you're really worried what protoss is building you would rather use a scan than get your reaper killed. I mean I've even seen more creative ways of scouting where terrans would fly marines into the protoss base, stim and scout that way. You could even fly your viking in the protoss base and get a better scout that way. I've never thought at the core, terran really needed another scout. Hell, I'd rather have multiper observers than multiple reapers.
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I have been playing with Reapers. They suck.
It is difficult to convey how much they suck. For the price of two Reapers, you can get an upgrade, a research such as Stimpack or Combat Shield, or a Factory. You can get a tank for less than the cost of three Reapers. Reapers are one of the most expensive units in the game. And they.... suck. Their performance against literally every unit in the game is completely underwhelming. Even workers- they just don't kill them fast enough to be worth building.
Superficially it appears that a Reaper does more damage than a Marine. They do 4x2 versus a Marine's 6. However reapers cannot stim, do not benefit from combat shield, and Medivacs heal them just the same... redundant with their own healing. Honestly, never build Reapers. Make marines instead.
And did I mention that Reapers are 50 gas EACH? Like holy crap are they gas expensive. And you're basically getting a Marine. A very fast marine, granted. But it's basically a bad marine.
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Like above guy said, reapers are terribad. Maybe there will be some kind of epic all-in cheese build with them but i highly doubt even one of those will spring up.
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On January 12 2013 06:15 ledarsi wrote:
I have been playing with Reapers. They suck.
It is difficult to convey how much they suck. For the price of two Reapers, you can get an upgrade, a research such as Stimpack or Combat Shield, or a Factory. You can get a tank for less than the cost of three Reapers. Reapers are one of the most expensive units in the game. And they.... suck. Their performance against literally every unit in the game is completely underwhelming. Even workers- they just don't kill them fast enough to be worth building.
Superficially it appears that a Reaper does more damage than a Marine. They do 4x2 versus a Marine's 6. However reapers cannot stim, do not benefit from combat shield, and Medivacs heal them just the same... redundant with their own healing. Honestly, never build Reapers. Make marines instead.
And did I mention that Reapers are 50 gas EACH? Like holy crap are they gas expensive. And you're basically getting a Marine. A very fast marine, granted. But it's basically a bad marine.
Expect Blizzard to make this kind of statement within a week:
"We have received a lot of feedback regarding the new reaper and we really like the role as a scouting unit. We would, however, like too see it used even more and therefore we have reduced the cost of the reaper to 50/25."
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to be honest im really happy with this patch the new hellbats are just great they allow a mech player to invest his minerals finnally in sth usefull also the siege tank buff is A BUFF it allows terran some better timings aswell as defending vs early all-ins / hard pressures and also fixes a bit vs toss since u wont die that easy vs stupid allins or can defend them without much looses which allows u to go with a advantage in late game ( i woud still lile to see a dmg buff vs toss shild or sth like that ... or nerve the fucking immo ). the new raven is just awesome and i think it will nerved a bit soon cause seaker missile should cost 100 energy imo but thats fine 
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While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now.
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On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation.
And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'?
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On January 12 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 06:15 ledarsi wrote:
I have been playing with Reapers. They suck.
It is difficult to convey how much they suck. For the price of two Reapers, you can get an upgrade, a research such as Stimpack or Combat Shield, or a Factory. You can get a tank for less than the cost of three Reapers. Reapers are one of the most expensive units in the game. And they.... suck. Their performance against literally every unit in the game is completely underwhelming. Even workers- they just don't kill them fast enough to be worth building.
Superficially it appears that a Reaper does more damage than a Marine. They do 4x2 versus a Marine's 6. However reapers cannot stim, do not benefit from combat shield, and Medivacs heal them just the same... redundant with their own healing. Honestly, never build Reapers. Make marines instead.
And did I mention that Reapers are 50 gas EACH? Like holy crap are they gas expensive. And you're basically getting a Marine. A very fast marine, granted. But it's basically a bad marine. Expect Blizzard to make this kind of statement within a week: "We have received a lot of feedback regarding the new reaper and we really like the role as a scouting unit. We would, however, like too see it used even more and therefore we have reduced the cost of the reaper to 50/25."
One stalker can solo two reapers, so a cost reduction like that wouldn't be terrible. I can see some really dumb all-in with them using marines if they were that cost, but that was always going to happen once the tech lab requirment was removed.
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On January 12 2013 06:55 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation. And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'?
I feel that is a safe assumption to make any time new patch notes are released. Not everyone, but there are people who just look at the numbers and let the theory-craft machine go to work.
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EPT
