EPT[D] Patch #11 TvP Early Game - Page 2
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MetalGear
Australia47 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
1-1-1 variants with Hellions always had the big downside that you sorta needed to do at least some damage to the eco to make up for their weakness in the engagement. Hellbats however are really strong against Zealots. That is the direction I would go as Terran. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On January 10 2013 18:43 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Their short range and slower movement speed will make massing hellbats a tricky task, requiring presplitting to maximize their output. The damage change is a good change, the bonus damage to light on the reaper was just impossible to integrate into a bio build due to its ridiculous gas cost of 50 for a unit with 50 hp. It still has the same gas cost and the same HP, only much lower damage. How does that make it better to integrate it in a bio build. Yes it is easier to mass them, but that doesnt change it is a horrible idea to mass them. The only change is that I expect reapers will be seen alot more: as initial scout. But I really dont expect to ever see more than 3 of them being made. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On January 10 2013 21:14 Sissors wrote: It still has the same gas cost and the same HP, only much lower damage. How does that make it better to integrate it in a bio build. Yes it is easier to mass them, but that doesnt change it is a horrible idea to mass them. The only change is that I expect reapers will be seen alot more: as initial scout. But I really dont expect to ever see more than 3 of them being made. What are you talking about? I'm talking about integrating reapers into a bio build pre-patch as an anti-light role was impossible due to its high gas cost. The updated Hellbat serves this role much better. | ||
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras. lol i totally disagree with reaper being useless , I love the changes in the reaper they are going in the right direction . I used them in every matchup i tested the new reaper and i think that those change are so great. 1) remove of the vision up cliff -> increase the risk/tension of the reaper harass which is good because it was way too easy to harass with this ability. allow good positionned marines to pick off reapers. 2) increase speed without upgrades anymore : fantastic up that people don't seem to care about. this basically allow you to outrun stalkers and MsC vs P and is good vs Z too for the same reason with queens. as dommage vs stalkers and queens didn't moved you can still pick off those units if u manage to isolate one (which is more easy with the speed upgrade). this also punish harder a bad positionnning of your opponent which is good imo. 3) nerf of the dommage vs light unit : main impact in TvT because the basic defense is marine and it is light. don't affect so much TvZ because even it's becoming more difficult to kill lings early on you can quit them with so much more ease. vs Protoss more difficult to kill Zealot but com'on who is using reaper to kill zealot as main purpose anyway.. this nerf is understandable as you can move faster to mineral line it is expected you kill probe slower. This also allow zerg to counter reaper with speedlings and not forcing him to roach. 4) produce reaper without techlab : awesome as it allow you to put pressure on with more than 1 rax and still expand very fast . for example 3 rax reaper you econ 150 min 75 gas which is huge on early game. reactor reaper seems nice too didn't tested yet though. overall : nerf reaper in TvT because of the remove of both light dmg and cliff vision huge buff vs Z and P as you can now harass with less investment on tech (no tech lab no need upgrade on fac anymore which represent as an example for a 3rax reaper an economy of 300 mineral 175 gas on very early game which is huuuuuuge) and the nerf of dmg doesnt impact so much those matchup as lings and Zealot are no threat or priority target of reaper anyway. they seems to be in the good direction we wanted nerf reaper in TvT this patch clearly nerf reaper in TvT we wanted more use of reaper in TvZ TvP this patch provide good buff to reaper harass vs those race. why whine so much? maybe a later lategame upgrade could be put in to allow reaper being usefull lategame. like an upgrade improving dmg vs light again or giving back grenade vs building . | ||
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SpecKROELLchen
Germany150 Posts
On January 10 2013 23:25 SSVnormandy wrote: lol i totally disagree with reaper being useless , I love the changes in the reaper they are going in the right direction . I used them in every matchup i tested the new reaper and i think that those change are so great. 1) remove of the vision up cliff -> increase the risk/tension of the reaper harass which is good because it was way too easy to harass with this ability. allow good positionned marines to pick off reapers. 2) increase speed without upgrades anymore : fantastic up that people don't seem to care about. this basically allow you to outrun stalkers and MsC vs P and is good vs Z too for the same reason with queens. as dommage vs stalkers and queens didn't moved you can still pick off those units if u manage to isolate one (which is more easy with the speed upgrade). this also punish harder a bad positionnning of your opponent which is good imo. 3) nerf of the dommage vs light unit : main impact in TvT because the basic defense is marine and it is light. don't affect so much TvZ because even it's becoming more difficult to kill lings early on you can quit them with so much more ease. vs Protoss more difficult to kill Zealot but com'on who is using reaper to kill zealot as main purpose anyway.. this nerf is understandable as you can move faster to mineral line it is expected you kill probe slower. This also allow zerg to counter reaper with speedlings and not forcing him to roach. 4) produce reaper without techlab : awesome as it allow you to put pressure on with more than 1 rax and still expand very fast . for example 3 rax reaper you econ 150 min 75 gas which is huge on early game. reactor reaper seems nice too didn't tested yet though. overall : nerf reaper in TvT because of the remove of both light dmg and cliff vision huge buff vs Z and P as you can now harass with less investment on tech (no tech lab no need upgrade on fac anymore which represent as an example for a 3rax reaper an economy of 300 mineral 175 gas on very early game which is huuuuuuge) and the nerf of dmg doesnt impact so much those matchup as lings and Zealot are no threat or priority target of reaper anyway. they seems to be in the good direction we wanted nerf reaper in TvT this patch clearly nerf reaper in TvT we wanted more use of reaper in TvZ TvP this patch provide good buff to reaper harass vs those race. why whine so much? maybe a later lategame upgrade could be put in to allow reaper being usefull lategame. like an upgrade improving dmg vs light again or giving back grenade vs building . The answer is simple. You need more than 2 reapers to have the same damageoutput vs light that they had prepatch and now look at their buildtime. btw you could outrun queens and stalker prepatch | ||
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
btw you could outrun queens and stalker prepatch reaper barely outrunned stalker which means when he just click and follow you, you had no time to deal dommage.the speed advantage is very significant now. For the queen of course you outrunned queens with reapers but now with the speed upgrade you can move your harass very fast and mess more with zerg queen positionning. Less dommage for more mobility i think it's a fair trade. maybe they have to adjust numbers but the idea is good and it fix TvT issues. and about building time you eco 25s on each barrack so it makes your early reaper more early. With the speed upgrade added to it you can have it in his base a good amount of time before queen pops out when Z hatch first In TvZ I play a 3 rax reaper into double expand of my own which is even better now because of the cheaper tech in reaper. I can safely expand very fast and my strat turn into a less allinish aggression. It still very effective vs Zerg as it force the same defensive response than before. The only problem i am having right now is that speedlings become a viable option vs this. | ||
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_indigo_
Slovenia171 Posts
Does it still make sense to build those 3 Reapers before heavy reactor-barracks play or should you just alter the build? | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On January 10 2013 11:04 XXXSmOke wrote: Yea, Alot of people arent taking the hell bat buff into consideration. They now do 30 damage to zealots right out of the factory without pre ingnitor right out of the factory. I know the aoe got nerfed, but at early stages of the game the direct damage will be more favorable than the aoe. This also makes hell bats better vs stalkers which is a nice buff as well. Right now I am thinking of a Raven(For PDD)+Tank+Hellbat 2 base push. You would bring 1-3 scvs along the way to lay turrets down just like in BW to stop Air units/Obs. If the toss goes early air then you just delay the push and add some vikings. The idea would be to challenge the third of the Protoss. I thought this as well initially, but you have to keep in mind the severely short range of the Hellbat, and it's slower movement speed. Stalkers should never be in danger from Hellbats | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On January 10 2013 12:56 a176 wrote: this is a non change. what exactly do you plan on doing with a 1 siege tank rush? or even, the saved gas means you get one more siege tank during that minute it takes to research. i guess if you want to be cheesy as fuck, then prox fac will be pretty strong with this change. I've been doing a pretty funny troll build on an alt account, 1 gas no-siege tank marine push, and it actually kills people surprisingly often... if I had siege... wow. I would feel bad about winning. Well, more than I already do. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
Reapers are and have always been gas expensive, but the real limiting factor was that it was so damn hard to build them. Right now you can use 2 Reactor Rax and one naked Rax to do what used to take 5 barracks, 5 tech labs, a Factory, and an upgrade. Oh, also, a Starport and a Medivac. The investment has really been cut in half, so there's really nothing wrong with halving the damage versus light. Maybe now they could even buff it to 5x2. I'm a supporter of lower DPS pretty much across the board. With such high unit density, it's required to slow down the snowball effect. | ||
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Duncaaaaaan
United Kingdom101 Posts
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Perfect
United States322 Posts
On January 10 2013 17:27 iEchoic wrote: I really don't think this is going to do anything. Tanks can't pressure early against anyone who can use Nexus Overcharge, and tanks are still going to be bad lategame. What's the concern, exactly? This is going to have a bigger impact in TvZ and TvT. With that in mind, before beta is over I would like to see protoss forced to make a choice between a nexus that can overcharge, and a nexus that can cronoboost. Much like Terran have to make a choice between a defensive command center or an economic one. I would like to see how this works out (just to test) before beta is over. | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 10 2013 23:43 SpecKROELLchen wrote: The answer is simple. You need more than 2 reapers to have the same damageoutput vs light that they had prepatch and now look at their buildtime. btw you could outrun queens and stalker prepatch Now you can get them super early, without a tech lab, and use them for all the scouting you could ever want. Worried about an all-in, just pump out an early reaper and get your scout on. This is the main reason Blizzard changed the reaper. The main thing holding that unit back was its crazy damage output against light units, which is every starting unit for all of the races. Plus all workers as well. With the regen and minimal investment, terran has a reliable scout that can be used over and over to collect information. Its fast and favors the play with good mutil-tasking. The more information available to the players, the greater the chance the better player will win. | ||
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dani`
Netherlands2402 Posts
On January 10 2013 23:50 SSVnormandy wrote: reaper barely outrunned stalker which means when he just click and follow you, you had no time to deal dommage. [ ... ] You Frenchies are adorable <3 | ||
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Yngvi
Netherlands70 Posts
After the first 2 reapers you get your first cc, get a bunker and 2 more reapers. Grab 2nd gas, make 4 marines and get a factory. At around this time you can get a 3rd cc and double engi bay (play standard bio from here) in case of mech get more gasses.. This all seems risky but you always come out ahead. Be sure the play aggressive with reapers (keeps msc at home) and as soon as you get 3 tanks you land your third. I stop producing tanks @ 3 and go for regular bio au. When done right you have a push with 2-2 upgrades, 4 medivacs and in total around 170 supply. When you move out grab a 4th and start 3-3. Hf winning  Ps. Ill clean up this post when im not on my phone. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On the other hand it would be interesting to have a super high tech upgrade for the reaper that adds light damage and charges again, so they work like super marines lategame again. But I guess they are scared about their Hellbat, that was never really necessary if they would have tinkered with shared upgrades and the armored tag on the ground for the Viking, that people mentioned till a bit after WoL release. Don't know why, but I would just like the Reaper and Viking more in those roles. | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
On January 10 2013 11:58 BlackPanther wrote: Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras. Yeah, the new Reaper is fucking awful.. It's not good.... vs anything! In its current state, the build time needs to be reduced to like 35 and require only 50 minerals...Thats about what its worth, if that... Edit: Yeah, you can only argue they are good for scouting which can be done with a well used worker or denied by a wall placed stalker or two now that they can't see up the cliff. | ||
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NeWnAr
Singapore231 Posts
On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote: nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup. Sight. None of them have 13 range sight. Scan. Terran has it. Gives the extra 1 or 2 sight range you need Marines beside tanks. Kills observers that are revealed with scan. | ||
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