My last day in the military is Friday, and I guess/hope the game won't start today or tomorrow....
British Empire Mini Mafia
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
My last day in the military is Friday, and I guess/hope the game won't start today or tomorrow.... | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
Anyways, there are a couple of players whose posting I haven't liked so far: MrZentor On January 04 2013 09:37 MrZentor wrote: Also, dragging days out will lead to decreased interest in the game by town, increasing inactivity, and generally making things easier for scum. Days should be 48-72 hours. Additional discussion time benefits town and damages Mafia. Mafia's agenda is to stall discussion and create confusion - both of these goals are achieved by faster lynches where less players can offer their opinions. From my point of view, the above post is pushing Mafia agenda. On January 04 2013 11:40 MrZentor wrote: I feel that creating an arbitrary limit will only limit town, regardless of whether that limit is one that shortens or lengthens the day. We should instead have guidelines. 48-72 hours This post basically repeats what was already said in the previous post... Plus some obvious setup talk that anyone could post, no matter their alignment. It's quite unnecessary to mention that his "faster lynches plan" is a guideline and not a strictly enforced rule. Who would have thought so in the first place, really? On January 04 2013 11:54 MrZentor wrote: By the way, I will be reserving my vote, just so I can the first to lynch somebody. Another post that doesn't fit into town agenda. Regardless of the trollish appearance, this post actually gives MrZentor more breathing room if he just joins a bandwagon without good reasoning later on. He told he would do so after all, didn't he? On January 04 2013 11:59 MrZentor wrote: ShiaoPi, if you say that you agree with me about not creating arbitrary limits about the length of the day, I will think of you as confirmed town. On January 04 2013 12:01 MrZentor wrote: You're not ShiaoPi. On January 04 2013 12:12 MrZentor wrote: Because we're masoned. But don't tell anybody. On January 04 2013 12:15 MrZentor wrote: I'm masoned with more than one person. ShiaoPi pulled a BH. More fluff... So far there's nothing townish in MrZentor's filter, and too much useless/anti-town stuff to be overlooked. If he's town, he needs to change his playstyle completely. If he's Mafia, he needs to continue on his current path and convince us he can't be town. Mr. Cheesecake Who was he again? I only remembered him after rereading the thread a couple of times. He hasn't actually taken stances on anything that matters (not counting obvious stuff like "we should lynch the scummiest player"). What I'm most worried about is his complete lack of presence - he's basically casually lurking without being too obvious. I'm unwilling to judge him yet, but he isn't looking good so far. jaybrundage On January 04 2013 10:45 jaybrundage wrote: Well we can rule out Palmar as the smurf. In regards to your idea about the set up. It seems that if we have a parity cop. And then lynch the person the parity cop targeted night one. We would have confirmed towns and confirmed scum easily. As we have no millers or GF's. The only trick would be for the parity cop to push his lynch well with out getting outed. Unless you have some idea for claiming. On January 04 2013 11:42 jaybrundage wrote: We should lynch someone when we feel confident they are mafia. We should always be aware of the hammer vote. People should be responsible for there hammer vote. We shouldn't rush a lynch cause we lost discussions to read people with. Policy Lynches rarely work so we should refrain from doing them. Pretty straight forward imo. On January 04 2013 12:00 jaybrundage wrote: Should be obvious why limit our selves? Only lynch when we are confident in the lynch. And have had good discussion over it. This is his whole filter. It's certainly... lacking, for a lack of better word. First he speculates a bit about blue roles, then gives a list of vague of his policy opinions, then leaves. It's just all too vague and pointless for my liking. What's up with this lack of effort, interest, anything really? Some players have been very active so far and it's definitely a good theme in this game. But some players (like these 3 above) have done practically nothing, even if they have posted. That should be some reason for concern to anyone. | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 05 2013 07:33 Hapahauli wrote: @ Xalatos Welcome! Thoughts on DP appreciated! Regarding your own points: MrZ - He tends to do very "trolly" stuff as town and scum. His early-game in Witchcraft Mini is a good example, where he self-votes himself and just posts a couple of meaningless one-liners for most of Day 1 (as town). I'm not too worried about MrZ, as I think reading him is fairly easy. He's very clammy and afraid to post as scum. He's much more open and jokey as town. JayBrundage - He's lynch-bait (see Hero Mini Mafia). We should definitely encourage him to post more, but he's a pretty easy mislynch (if he's town) because he tends to make sparse and wishy-washy posts. Mr.CC - I think he's fairly similar to MrZ. I'm not very worried about reading him, because I feel he has a hard time replicating his "jokey" town-meta. His inactivity so far is a concern, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to RL business. Well, for starters, I think you're most likely town. I can't believe a Mafia would outpost everyone in the thread and engage in every possible topic. Does that make DarthPunk Mafia in my eyes? Not really. I agree with many things he says, and his filter just reads fairly townish to me - this post for example: On January 05 2013 06:16 DarthPunk wrote: I don;t like either of the 'cases' to be perfectly honest. Rise is completely null to me. And to be honest you are the one picking a fight with rise. There should be one read due to Rises' aggression and that is null. I thought that you were simply following up on him in order to push the town to be active. However you trying to drum up support for a bandwagon based of something that any player of your calibre should KNOW is a null tell is not 'potentially scummy' it IS scummy. and it has me worried. Since when do you call things 'potentially scummy' anyway??? sounds really fucking off to be honest. Yeah it was a WTF post from yamato initially. But his explanation, willingness to be open and transparent, and the fact that his original WTF post turned out to be an exercise in an open thought process give me a town read on yamato at this juncture. And once again I am wondering how the fuck a town hapa is not reaching the same conclusions as myself and is pushing the wagons of two people who are null at worst. I consider DarthPunk to be trying to figure out the game, not trying to drive his own agenda. That's always town points +++ in my books. I don't like him labeling you as his main suspect, considering your heavy activity and overall townish agenda, but it would be stupid for Mafia to target someone like you as well. I think it's just a case of town vs town flamewar. That's happened so many times before, and not even once has a war between active players A and B resulted in one of them flipping Mafia (in my games). Ugh, I don't like giving some players the benefit of the doubt if they're "lynch baits". That just encourages them to play anti-town as Mafia and then get away with it. Especially MrZentor's playstyle is so irritatingly useless and hard to read... What's the point of signing up if he justs posts some one liners anyway? | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 05 2013 07:54 Hapahauli wrote: Well see DarthPunk is very capable of playing an engaged and active mafia game. It's his individual behavior that makes him scummy. For example, his complete lack of pursuing lurkers despite him being super-concerned about them. In addition, his "all bark, no bite" stance on me... where he's been directly calling me scum, yet hasn't placed his vote and hasn't been able to produce a case on me when asked: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391112¤tpage=8#142 It's not like I'm unwilling to lynch Jay if I think he's mafia. Far from it. However, his behavior does need to be analyzed in the context of his own gameplay. As for MrZ, I'm not worried about him at all. He's actually pretty easy to read, because his mafia and town personas are completely different from one another. He's far more active, engaged, and jokey in his town games. In his mafia games, it's pretty clear that he has a hard time making posts. His activity and engagement will reveal his alignment soon enough. Hmmm... I can kind of see what you're getting at. For example, this post: On January 05 2013 07:04 DarthPunk wrote: We don't have to lynch forever in this game. we can wait a bit before we seriously consider lynching for lurking which is a larger sacrifice in a game this small. What was on top of my agenda was figuring out hapa as you are the scariest player in this game, and if I could get a solid town read on you we could roll these scum. Unfortunately you went retard and or are scum so now I have to deal with a hapa tunnelling me based on All the while I am somehow illogical despite having really solid reasoning and you just ignoring that to serve your OMGUS agenda. Well, that is cool with me HAPA. I don't have to convince you you are scum. I just have to convince the town. And that should be straightforward after this little party we have been having together. Look at these three bolded statements. First you're the scariest player in the game. Then you're retard town (or scum). Then you're certainly scum. These statements just contradict each other. This kind of flip-flopping about your A) skill level B) alignment doesn't make me feel good about DP. Even so, I don't like lynching one of the most active players when most players have done (practically) nothing. Especially this early. Well, I'm not really sure how MrZentor is so easy to read... I'm having extreme difficulties reading him. And I've played with him in two games before too. It shouldn't be too hard to fake some joke posts, right? Especially with his general low activity and lack of any content. | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 05 2013 08:25 MrZentor wrote: How many times have you been scum in forum mafia, Xatalos? Game of Thrones - Mafia - Win (you were town here) Newbie Mini VII - Town - Loss Newbie Mini XV - Mafia - Win Newbie Mini XXVI - Mafia - Loss Paranoia - Town - Win (you were town here) On January 05 2013 08:21 MrZentor wrote: Hapa, aren't you glad I make myself easy to read? + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2013 07:23 Xatalos wrote: Sorry for the late entrance, but I warned about this pre-game :/ Anyways, there are a couple of players whose posting I haven't liked so far: MrZentor Additional discussion time benefits town and damages Mafia. Mafia's agenda is to stall discussion and create confusion - both of these goals are achieved by faster lynches where less players can offer their opinions. From my point of view, the above post is pushing Mafia agenda. This post basically repeats what was already said in the previous post... Plus some obvious setup talk that anyone could post, no matter their alignment. It's quite unnecessary to mention that his "faster lynches plan" is a guideline and not a strictly enforced rule. Who would have thought so in the first place, really? Another post that doesn't fit into town agenda. Regardless of the trollish appearance, this post actually gives MrZentor more breathing room if he just joins a bandwagon without good reasoning later on. He told he would do so after all, didn't he? More fluff... So far there's nothing townish in MrZentor's filter, and too much useless/anti-town stuff to be overlooked. If he's town, he needs to change his playstyle completely. If he's Mafia, he needs to continue on his current path and convince us he can't be town. Mr. Cheesecake Who was he again? I only remembered him after rereading the thread a couple of times. He hasn't actually taken stances on anything that matters (not counting obvious stuff like "we should lynch the scummiest player"). What I'm most worried about is his complete lack of presence - he's basically casually lurking without being too obvious. I'm unwilling to judge him yet, but he isn't looking good so far. jaybrundage This is his whole filter. It's certainly... lacking, for a lack of better word. First he speculates a bit about blue roles, then gives a list of vague of his policy opinions, then leaves. It's just all too vague and pointless for my liking. What's up with this lack of effort, interest, anything really? Some players have been very active so far and it's definitely a good theme in this game. But some players (like these 3 above) have done practically nothing, even if they have posted. That should be some reason for concern to anyone. Up to a certain point, additional discussion time benefits town, obviously. But a lot of people seem to think that more time is ALWAYS good for town. They don't realize that after a certain point, not being able to lynch somebody, because of all this extra time, hurts town. Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it's pushing Mafia agenda. K? What post? This post? I didn't say I would join a bandwagon with any good reason. I said I would be the final vote in the lynching of somebody. And scum wouldn't make a post like that. The easiest thing for them to do is recycle reasons while adding a few pointless one of their owns for joining a bandwagon. Also, mafia wouldn't want to have the hammer vote. I meant this post (which I quoted): On January 04 2013 11:40 MrZentor wrote: I feel that creating an arbitrary limit will only limit town, regardless of whether that limit is one that shortens or lengthens the day. We should instead have guidelines. 48-72 hours In any case, I'm pretty satisfied with your responses. Your counter-arguments to my (pretty weak) arguments for your scumminess are what I'd expect from a townie: calm, collected, reasonable. Combined with Hapahauli's recommendation to wait on you, I don't see you as a good lynch at the moment. On January 05 2013 08:33 Hapahauli wrote: @ Xatalos If you had one (or two) top scumreads in the thread at the moment, who would it be and why? You threw around 3 lurkers and called them suspicious, but that's rather easy to do. I'm more interested in your conclusions. I'm having some problems with my reads right now :/ I don't like DP as scum based on his activity and some townish posts, but some of his posts aren't looking too good (one moment you're certain scum, the next you're retard town... and overall his aggressive and emotional tunneling on you). Considering his latest posts, I'll have to put him as my #1 scum at the moment. There just isn't a lot of meaningful content in the thread except from a couple of players, which makes it hard to single out suspects. I'd put #2 scum on Mr. Cheesecake though. Call it a gut feeling, but I don't like his non-content posts and being so totally "invisible" in the thread. That's just classic passive Mafia play. | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 04 2013 09:37 MrZentor wrote: Also, dragging days out will lead to decreased interest in the game by town, increasing inactivity, and generally making things easier for scum. Days should be 48-72 hours. -> On January 04 2013 11:40 MrZentor wrote: I feel that creating an arbitrary limit will only limit town, regardless of whether that limit is one that shortens or lengthens the day. We should instead have guidelines. 48-72 hours It's getting too late and I'm going to bed now though. Good night | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 05 2013 15:00 DarthPunk wrote: Holy fuck. What do you not understand about this. I am town. I have no additional info. I have to figure shit out. The way I figure shit out is to have ideas and then alter these ideas with changing info or more thought applied to the problem. Whilst I was flaming with you I was thinking about Xatalos. Now the thing about Xatalos is that he is a pretty bad townie. He likes to sheep and he changes his mind. Changing your mind is a pretty bad thing to do as scum because people such as yourself for some reason view it as scummy, and as scum you don't need to change your mind. You can defend someone you know will flip town and be fully justified in doing that later when he flips. You can also tunnel people as long as they aren't your buddies, and even then you can do so. So changing his mind/sheeping was originally scummy but not with some further thought applied. His list post irks me as all lists post do in general HOWEVER re reading it actually contained decent content and seemed to fit someone trying to figure shit out. Not scummy. So. He is back to null after reevaluation and I need to figure some other shit out. Savvy? Hmm.. Posts like this are the reason why I originally viewed DP as townish. From time to time there are scummy traits in his filter (angriness, contradictions...) but then again, there are many posts where he appears to genuinely try solving the game. For example this earlier post of his: On January 05 2013 06:16 DarthPunk wrote: I don;t like either of the 'cases' to be perfectly honest. Rise is completely null to me. And to be honest you are the one picking a fight with rise. There should be one read due to Rises' aggression and that is null. I thought that you were simply following up on him in order to push the town to be active. However you trying to drum up support for a bandwagon based of something that any player of your calibre should KNOW is a null tell is not 'potentially scummy' it IS scummy. and it has me worried. Since when do you call things 'potentially scummy' anyway??? sounds really fucking off to be honest. Yeah it was a WTF post from yamato initially. But his explanation, willingness to be open and transparent, and the fact that his original WTF post turned out to be an exercise in an open thought process give me a town read on yamato at this juncture. And once again I am wondering how the fuck a town hapa is not reaching the same conclusions as myself and is pushing the wagons of two people who are null at worst. These well thought-out and contentful posts about several players seem like something Mafia would have a hard time doing. Not impossible, of course, but they just fit town agenda a lot better. Combined with DP's relatively high activity and the speed at which the ghost bandwagon for him gained support, I don't really feel comfortable lynching him today. There's also the point that in my experience, a town vs town flamewar is the most obvious explanation for a fight between active players. With that said, there are some things in his filter that I don't like. DP, if you're there, I want your take on the following matters. On January 05 2013 07:04 DarthPunk wrote: What was on top of my agenda was figuring out hapa as you are the scariest player in this game, and if I could get a solid town read on you we could roll these scum. Unfortunately you went retard and or are scum so now I have to deal with a hapa tunnelling me based on All the while I am somehow illogical despite having really solid reasoning and you just ignoring that to serve your OMGUS agenda. Well, that is cool with me HAPA. I don't have to convince you you are scum. I just have to convince the town. And that should be straightforward after this little party we have been having together. I just can't wrap my head around this post. Here's what it basically says: 1) Hapa is the best player in this game 2) He's a retard and/or scum 3) He's definitely scum Where's the coherency and logic in all this? You called me out for switching my opinions in the time of 1-2 hours, but you're switching your opinions even inside the same post... It makes me think this could all be fake reasoning, only aimed at pushing an agenda, not finding the truth. And why is it so bad for Hapa to push weak cases? What it does is create discussion and draw opinions, likely even hints to several players' alignments, and simply there almost CAN'T be any strong cases this early. So it's infinitely better to push a weak case than merely talk policy or semantics. I have a hard time seeing why this makes Hapa scum exactly? - - - Alright. I don't have any strong scumreads at the moment, but... There are two players I'm considering for today. Mr. Cheesecake - Lots of one-liners that add nothing to the thread - So far his only suspect is me, based on my uncertainty about DP... and nothing else to add to the discussion? - A reasonable amount of posts, but basically nothing of value except the (weak) case on me - Generally being quite forgettable and blending in without drawing attention at all yamato77 - Voting for Mr. Cheesecake since... why? - Weird logic and reasoning... scrambling for something to back up his opinions? - Practically nothing useful in his (short) filter - Talking almost exclusively about meta/policy/semantics, nothing really meaningful related to this game | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 00:52 MrZentor wrote: At least I know DP is also town now, although Hapa beat me to saying that. -.- Where does this certainty come from by the way? Just curious... | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 01:04 MrZentor wrote: I like to read people not by if they're contradicting themselves or "pushing mafia agenda", which are pretty unreliable indicators, but by the emotion and genuineness of their posts. Scum have a very difficult time emulating the frustration a townie would feel in a position like DP's, so by seeing that frustration in his recent posts, it is easy to know he is town. Reading people like this will give you a lot more town reads than scum reads, but in a game like this, being able to find town is nearly as helpful as finding scum, because it makes finding scum much easier by narrowing down the pool of suspects. Hmm. Alright, I can understand that. It's not very "scientific", but I've often trusted my instincts more than logic (see Paranoia Mafia where I chose to lynch Sandroba over austinmcc despite austinmcc's illogical play). The problem is that it's hard to convince anyone else but yourself with that kind of a read. Another problem is that many of DP's posts have an angry/emotional feel to them, not a frustrated one. Getting angry would fit Mafia being cornered, wouldn't it? | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 05 2013 06:50 DarthPunk wrote: Who the fuck is saying anything about tunnelling? I clearly said pressure. I fucking pressured lurkers all of day one in witchcraft. And I don;t think you are scummy because you haven;t made a case. I didn't say that. I think you are scummy because of the way you are pushing two weak as shit wagons. Which are obviously weak as shit and me not being able to believe that you as town would not see they are weak as shit. ergo you are scummy as we are CLEARLY not sharing a similar mindset about said wagons. Also you immediate OMGUS is fucking terrible. Not town play. Not good play. Not town hapa play. Although, on a second look, it could be just overwhelming frustration. Hm... Well, in any case, I don't think DP is a good lynch. With his activity, he'll have a hard time staying safe if he's Mafia. That, and there are many very townish posts from him. | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 02:07 MrZentor wrote: But frustration wouldn't fit a mafia being pressured. Yeah....... That's true. By the way, what are your top scumreads right now? | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
There's something interesting in his filter: On January 04 2013 09:45 RiseAgain wrote: What your post is doing is detracting from something we should be doing, setup-analysis, this setup has a very clear town slant with the proper play. I already know what it is, three townie points to the first person to propose it, if no one has come up with it in the next... 12-24 hours I'll explain it, after all, we have time. What might this be about? I have a feeling he's going to make some giant post soon enough and focus on this idea. However, I don't feel good about focusing on "setup-analysis". I really doubt there's some trick that would make us win based on the setup. It always comes down to player analysis, in the end. I'm not really willing to lynch him right now though. His inactivity is bad, but not necessarily scummy. And when he did post (long ago), his posts were focused on the setup, yeah, but it at least looked like he was trying to achieve something and convince others of his ideas. At the very least I want to see him posting again before judging. | ||
Xatalos
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Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
On January 06 2013 03:37 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Xalatos, You don't seem to be willing to lynch anybody. Make a hard read on someone and vote their ass. Stop floundering around with the DP read (all you've done is give longass post(s) with a super neutral opinion on people, and your filter doesn't reveal anything new). Vote your top scumread. Right now. Explain it at your leisure. Interested in seeing what it is. Love, Mr. Cheesecake 1) I don't yet have a scumread I'm confident in. 2) I don't want to vote someone prematurely - in this setup, it could lead to someone I only have a weak scumread on to get lynched while I'm offline. 3) If I had to vote someone right now, it would be you, but there's no rush (several players have said almost nothing yet). | ||
Xatalos
Finland9673 Posts
I've already detailed my reasons for suspecting you in several earlier posts. Mainly about posting lots of fluff and not contributing much. My suspicion started when I originally read through the thread and had a hard time noticing your existence at all. It's not a strong suspicion, but after all, I don't have any stronger reads either. I'm unwilling to vote now though - you already have 2 votes, and if I voted now, only 2 more votes would be needed for an instalynch, without giving all players a chance to offer their opinions. I'm also not confident in you flipping Mafia, even though I don't have a better option currently. | ||
Xatalos
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On January 06 2013 06:02 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: So you don't have a better option right now? Then find one. By the way, what about your reads? It seems like I'm your suspect, but what else? Name your top3 scumreads. Meanwhile I'll work through some filters. | ||
Xatalos
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