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I'm not a huge Dustin Browder fan when he fucks up but can someone people who are in the beta give him support for a change in this thread?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6573699544?page=4#75
It's F grade level newbie ridiculous, blaming the entire A-Move / clumping / deathballing of units simply on how the code is for the movement. It's utterly inane (the guy clearly doesn't play Protoss and understand how shift click stalker blink works and why it's awesome)
I'm happy to give Blizzard shit when they deserve it but to see Dustin even have to respond to that idiotic thread which doesn't understand unit design features / skills / attack types causing deathballing is making my brain hurt.
Also for the love of fuck, anyone want to bump the carrier micro thread over there? I'm convinced Blizzard are going to quietly hope that thread dies.
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I actually played the modified Daybreak version some time ago with clan mates. The games did look exactly the same.
Zero difference at Mid-High master (too) for what i experienced.
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Blizzard have already said they want to focus on hots units before testing changes to WoL units.
I've tried the unit movement mods myself and I like all of them less than the current unit movement. It really is the same.
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I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad.
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On October 24 2012 22:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad.
I think a big issue though is that Zerg and Protoss rarely have to split their units, it would be nice if there were some things implemented in the game so that marines weren't the only units you could maximize surface area with
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On October 24 2012 22:42 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad. I think a big issue though is that Zerg and Protoss rarely have to split their units, it would be nice if there were some things implemented in the game so that marines weren't the only units you could maximize surface area with
The PvZ endgame (in WoL) is becoming genuinely boring. That whole thing needs looking at, the neural vs vortex thing (the same) every time is diminishing it entirely.
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hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about?
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On October 24 2012 22:42 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad. I think a big issue though is that Zerg and Protoss rarely have to split their units, it would be nice if there were some things implemented in the game so that marines weren't the only units you could maximize surface area with
That's because marines have stimpack. Like you said it has more to do with the units than the game itself.
Last night i was splitting speed Hydras vs banelings, not as much as awesome, but still fun!
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I find it hard to believe that people think microing aggainst the computer is a nice skill to watch. It's no different than having 12 units per control group. It's simply a mechanical limitation artificially created to make the game more difficult. In essence, it's nothing more than a mindless mouse trick, like it was to click through several gateways / rax etc to produce units individually in broodwar.
Also, saying that you need automated clumping so that microing doesn't disappear is also misleading. We could actually get to see much more cool microing because players know all their pre-splitting is for nothing as soon as they click move. As Dustin said, there are times where being clumped is beneficial, for example aggainst a mass of melee units like lings and zealots, so i'ts not like people would go with the units split all the time.
I personally think it's a bad move for the game not to have this, but it's their choice. I also completely disagree with how they test things. Testing internally with a couple of mediocre players, who tried it at most for a day, is really going to get them some good conclusions about the impact of that in the game in the long run... Keep doing good science folks. /s
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It's sad, but the game is dying bit by bit.
I dont know about blizzard mind set when changing stuff, sometimes I think that they have no idea about nothing.
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On October 24 2012 23:03 Apolo wrote:
I find it hard to believe that people think microing aggainst the computer is a nice skill to watch. It's no different than having 12 units per control group. It's simply a mechanical limitation artificially created to make the game more difficult. In essence, it's nothing more than a mindless mouse trick, like it was to click through several gateways / rax etc to produce units individually in broodwar.
Also, saying that you need automated clumping so that microing doesn't disappear is also misleading. We could actually get to see much more cool microing because players know all their pre-splitting is for nothing as soon as they click move. As Dustin said, there are times where being clumped is beneficial, for example aggainst a mass of melee units like lings and zealots, so i'ts not like people would go with the units split all the time.
I personally think it's a bad move for the game not to have this, but it's their choice. I also completely disagree with how they test things. Testing internally with a couple of mediocre players, who tried it at most for a day, is really going to get them some good conclusions about the impact of that in the game in the long run... Keep doing good science folks. /s
But...it doesn't actually change anything in practice. It's useless. So why implement it?
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On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about?
The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code.
Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness.
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On October 24 2012 23:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about? The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code. Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness.
You mean, Terran should know how to split the bioball? And Zerg should split the Broodlord/infestor deathball versus a Vortex? Because that's all the splitting that actually happens.
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Protoss having big units is like a natural split and reduces the DPS/area, so clumping up their units is a MUST...
also, units like colossus and sentries benefits heavily from the deathball formation.
to make protoss stop deathballing around you need to change so much stuff that I can't see it being done by Blizz even in LotV.
Protoss players benefit more from working on their units position before fights like:
zealots<archons<sentries(GS,FF)<Immortals<sentries(GS)<stalkers<colossus/HT
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On October 24 2012 23:30 joeschmo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 23:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about? The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code. Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness. You mean, Terran should know how to split the bioball? And Zerg should split the Broodlord/infestor deathball versus a Vortex? Because that's all the splitting that actually happens.
I watched Effort split his banelings and lings when palying against Flash. Its essential to split your marines when facing tanks in TvT. The same can be said about any race vs infestors. Your knowledge of the game is lacking im afraid.
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On October 25 2012 00:29 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 23:30 joeschmo wrote:On October 24 2012 23:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about? The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code. Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness. You mean, Terran should know how to split the bioball? And Zerg should split the Broodlord/infestor deathball versus a Vortex? Because that's all the splitting that actually happens. I watched Effort split his banelings and lings when palying against Flash. Its essential to split your marines when facing tanks in TvT. The same can be said about any race vs infestors. Your knowledge of the game is lacking im afraid.
its essential to split vs anything that does aoe, at least as terran. So basically:
Tanks, banes, fungal, storm, archons, collosus, widow mines
there are also a lot of fights where you want a good spread to get an arc or to decrease the effective dps of your opponent. such as against roaches and hydras. There is a lot of extra micro to be done because of clumping, just because we haven't seen it done properly yet, doesn't mean that the deathball will reign forever. Eventually, i truely believe that players will not want to deathball most of the time but rather have spread out, smaller battles around the map. We see it more and more, there are less 200/200 fights every month, more instances of multiple battles raging on the field of play and better micro and multitasking.
This game is no where near finished, its skill ceiling is no where near met and we have no idea how it will look in 1 years time, let alone 5 or 10 years time
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I am in agreement with those that believe the internal testing by blizzard was inadequate.
Looking at the linked video in the b.net post I don't see how this wouldn't have an affect on gameplay once people get good at using it. (As well Dustin Browder saying they had to click across the map to get it to work was really sketchy).
I think this mechanic would add to the skill of the game. Those players with high enough APM and wherewith all to remember to presplit their units will be rewarded over those that will have to do it sloppily in a battle. As well if I form my units into a concave and move across the map, a more aware player will be given the opportunity to attack me at the sides.
To the point of messing up stalker blink shift command, I wouldn't want this change to be implemented to universal unit movement, I would want an added "move in formation" command to preserve regular movement that players have become accustomed to.
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On October 24 2012 23:10 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 23:03 Apolo wrote:
I find it hard to believe that people think microing aggainst the computer is a nice skill to watch. It's no different than having 12 units per control group. It's simply a mechanical limitation artificially created to make the game more difficult. In essence, it's nothing more than a mindless mouse trick, like it was to click through several gateways / rax etc to produce units individually in broodwar.
Also, saying that you need automated clumping so that microing doesn't disappear is also misleading. We could actually get to see much more cool microing because players know all their pre-splitting is for nothing as soon as they click move. As Dustin said, there are times where being clumped is beneficial, for example aggainst a mass of melee units like lings and zealots, so i'ts not like people would go with the units split all the time.
I personally think it's a bad move for the game not to have this, but it's their choice. I also completely disagree with how they test things. Testing internally with a couple of mediocre players, who tried it at most for a day, is really going to get them some good conclusions about the impact of that in the game in the long run... Keep doing good science folks. /s But...it doesn't actually change anything in practice. It's useless. So why implement it?
(not that im taking the side of the dumbass there but) it should be implemented because from a user POV the game is sometimes, literally, unwatchable.
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I just have one question for everyone in general:
before SC2, when you thought of awesome, impressive control in an RTS, what did you think of? Did you think of flanking, concaves, and watching each unit's HP to make sure you maximize the lifespan of everything on the frontline?
or did you think of someone taking a tightly clumped ball of redcoats and splitting it into a spread-out formation?
Everyone talks about brood war movement as if it's "fighting the interface". how is unit-splitting not a form of fighting poorly made UI?
In WoL, it's "you didn't fight the interface well enough, so I'm going to get a maximum damage psi storm off".
In brood war, it was, "I fought the interface well enough and made it my bitch, so I'm going to get awesome storms on you".
It's gone from "well, anyone can have an army sent out in a reasonable formation (1a2a3a4a, not counting limbo-line syndrome), but only the best can control their spellcasters (battle the interface) to unleash obscene damage" to "well, anyone can control their spellcasters to unleash all sorts of awesome spells (smartcast), but only the best can have their entire army be anything besides a giant ball of stupid (battle the interface)."
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On October 24 2012 23:30 joeschmo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 23:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about? The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code. Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness. You mean, Terran should know how to split the bioball? And Zerg should split the Broodlord/infestor deathball versus a Vortex? Because that's all the splitting that actually happens.
It's the only splitting that happens, but that doesn't mean it's the only splitting that can and should happen.
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EPT
