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Active: 1467 users

Ukraine on Gay Propaganda

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journaIist
Profile Joined August 2012
39 Posts
October 11 2012 18:44 GMT
#1
Ukraine will vote next week (mid-October 2012) on the national bill on "homosexual propaganda". The bill aims to outlaw any "positive depiction" of gay people, including joining in gay parade marches, same-sex displays of affection (kissing, holding hands), and even watching "gay films" like Brokeback Mountain.

Ukraine has traditionally been a tolerant society, decriminalizing homosexuality as early as 1991. But surprisingly, the legislation is getting massive support in the country. A representative of one of the supporters of the bill frames the argument against homosexuality stating that one's individual freedom "are limited by the freedom of someone else." He elaborates that the free speech of the gay minorities is a violation of other people's right to not to have to hear something offensive. He goes on to accuse a worldwide conspiracy of Masons, New-Agers, postmodernists and financiers of various nationalities, of imposing ideas that are not "characteristic for Ukraine" on the nation's children. He continues that gay propaganda could could damage efforts to stem Ukraine's already stratospheric HIV rate, if, for example, some anti-Aids information were to be prohibited.

The universal support to this anti-homosexual bill is reflected in recent events in Ukraine, as the first Gay Pride march in Kiev was cancelled after violent threats from opposing groups. There have also been an increase in the incidents of attacks on gay activists in the country.


POSSIBLE TALKING POINTS
- Ukraine's stance on homosexuality versus the more liberal and tolerant stance by the rest of the modern world
- Particular cultural factors in Ukraine that may have influenced this issue
- Possible venues to explore by both parties to come up with a rational and mutually-beneficial solution to everyone concerned


SOURCES
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19881905

Full Article:
+ Show Spoiler +
The Ukrainian parliament could give final approval next week to a bill that aims to outlaw "pro-homosexual propaganda" - any "positive depiction" of gay people, gay pride marches, or even the screening of a film like Brokeback Mountain.

Critics have described the legislation, which imposes indeterminate fines and up to five years in prison for repeat offenders, as a throwback to the Middle Ages, although it is only a couple of decades since homosexuality was a criminal offence here and in the rest of the USSR.

In some ways, Ukraine is an open and tolerant society. It was the first former Soviet republic to decriminalise homosexuality, in 1991. It has sprouted its own gay rights movement, and gay night clubs operate freely in central Kiev.

But despite this, the bill - which sailed through its first reading last week - enjoys wide backing. All major political parties are united in support, and polls indicate that many Ukrainians support some restrictions on the rights of sexual minorities.

One of the legislation's incubators is the Christian Hope evangelical church in Kiev. Located in a nondescript five-story structure outside the city centre, Christian Hope provides a wide array of educational and charity services, and has established a network of some 150 churches throughout Ukraine. It has also helped collect thousands of signatures in support of three anti-gay bills put forward in parliament this year.

After a rousing service in the church's warehouse-like auditorium focusing on the agonies of sin and bliss of salvation, I meet the chief pastor, Valery Reshetinsky. For him, the fight against homosexuality is a matter of "national security" upon which the survival of the nation depends.

"Here's the issue," says Pastor Reshetinsky, a large-boned man with a slight moustache, tells me. "In a real democracy, my freedom and rights are limited by the freedom of someone else."

In his opinion, freedom of speech for sexual minorities is a violation of what he considers his inalienable right not to have to hear something he finds offensive.

"You can't do everything that you want to do, because there are people who have the exact same rights as you do," he insists.

The pastor goes on to accuse a worldwide conspiracy of Masons, New-Agers, postmodernists and financiers of various nationalities, of imposing ideas that are not "characteristic for Ukraine" on the nation's children.

The first reading of the bill last week unleashed a deluge of condemnation from human rights organisations, both inside and outside Ukraine, who have christened it a "gay gag law". The ban would be a gross violation of European and international conventions, they say, leading to further marginalisation of Ukraine's LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) community.

It could also damage efforts to stem Ukraine's already stratospheric HIV rate, if, for example, some anti-Aids information were to be prohibited.

It may be no coincidence that a number of gay activists have been attacked in recent months.

The first ever Gay Pride march planned in Kiev was called off at the last minute in May after threats of violence from far-right groups.

Immediately after a news conference announcing the decision, masked assailants kicked and jumped on Svyatoslav Sheremet, head of Gay Forum of Ukraine.

finlurrrr
Profile Joined April 2012
United States37 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 18:46:23
October 11 2012 18:45 GMT
#2
Is it the voters who get to choose, or is it being forced on them by rogue judges (i.e. anti-lgbt activist judges)?
“He who knows how will always work for he who knows why.”
finlurrrr
Profile Joined April 2012
United States37 Posts
October 11 2012 18:47 GMT
#3
Does it take a 51% majority of voters to approve it or does it require 2/3 of the voters?
“He who knows how will always work for he who knows why.”
Klondikebar
Profile Joined October 2011
United States2227 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 18:51:24
October 11 2012 18:49 GMT
#4
"He elaborates that the free speech of the gay minorities is a violation of other people's right to not to have to hear something offensive."

This is patently silly. Are gay people's rights violated because they have to hear the offensive line "being gay is a sin?" This really just harkens back to John Stewart when he said "you are confusing a war on religion with simply not getting your way anymore."

What sort of free speech positions does the Ukraine take? Are they as strong as they are in the US?

Edit: I also didn't realize their HIV rate was so high. If people are still stuck on the myth that homosexuality spreads HIV faster than heterosexuality then that could be the reason it's gaining such support.
#2throwed
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
October 11 2012 18:53 GMT
#5
Ukraine has traditionally been a tolerant society, decriminalizing homosexuality as early as 1991.


In other words they maintained the Soviet policy that had preceded it. Relatively speaking how do the rest of the former satellite states compare?

I don't mean to lump the region into a neat little package, but from my studies I know that other minority groups (specifically Romani) still have large social hurdles to overcome in Eastern Europe as a region in general. I am curious if a stigma in Ukraine could be likened to that of the one against Romani.
JackReacher
Profile Joined September 2012
United States197 Posts
October 11 2012 18:54 GMT
#6
On October 12 2012 03:49 Klondikebar wrote:
This is patently silly. Are gay people's rights violated because they have to hear the offensive line "being gay is a sin?" This really just harkens back to John Stewart when he said "you are confusing a war on religion with simply not getting your way anymore."

Quoted, simply because I don't think anything has ever made MORE sense to me in my entire life. Sadly, this is true of the entire social conservative agenda.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
October 11 2012 18:54 GMT
#7
I hope this is merely a flash in the pan sort of political event, but hate can sometimes surprise even me with how powerful and swaying it can be on a national level. Let's hope equality wins in the end.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Wrath 2.1
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany880 Posts
October 11 2012 18:55 GMT
#8
that's good. Sex life should be something private and not something that needs advertising or parades.
The tigers of wrath are wiser than the horses of instruction.
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
October 11 2012 18:56 GMT
#9
"gay propaganda = anti-aids information?"

T_T
seems like misinformation as a society
Hey! Listen!
S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
October 11 2012 18:57 GMT
#10
LOL fight against homosexuality a matter of "national security" LMAO
DidYuhim
Profile Joined September 2011
Ukraine1905 Posts
October 11 2012 18:58 GMT
#11
On October 12 2012 03:53 ThomasjServo wrote:
I don't mean to lump the region into a neat little package, but from my studies I know that other minority groups (specifically Romani) still have large social hurdles to overcome in Eastern Europe as a region in general.

The trick is, they don't even try. Romani are known for being thieves and frauds, supported by statistics.

I would really ask you to stop judging the country without knowing anything about it.
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
October 11 2012 18:58 GMT
#12
On October 12 2012 03:56 Navi wrote:
"gay propaganda = anti-aids information?"

T_T
seems like misinformation as a society

The Church used to, I say that only in that I don't know they continue to, spread disinformation about the effectiveness of condoms in third world countries. A sad world we live in sometimes.
tMomiji
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1115 Posts
October 11 2012 18:58 GMT
#13
On October 12 2012 03:55 Wrath 2.1 wrote:
Sex life should be something private and not something that needs advertising or parades.


Agreed, but this is going too far. ):
"I wonder if there is a league below copper? If so, I would like to inhabit it." -TotalBiscuit "In the event of a sudden change in cabin pressure, ROOF FLIES OFF!" -George Carlin <3 HerO <3 Kiwikaki <3 MKP
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 19:00:17
October 11 2012 19:00 GMT
#14
Game of Thrones is going to take a hit in Ukraine sales along with Spartacus and any other realistic depiction of life... They have men kissing. Oh god and... public displays of affection by homosexuals being outlawed? Well at least it's not in North America this time where all the shit is happening.
FoTG fighting!
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
October 11 2012 19:01 GMT
#15
On October 12 2012 03:55 Wrath 2.1 wrote:
that's good. Sex life should be something private and not something that needs advertising or parades.


Sex should be public.

I say so, now you must all submit to what I say, because my feelings are so damn important that I cannot tolerate even the notion that some might disagree, or feel different.

If you disagree, you have offended me to my core, and you must stand trial for that grave sin against humanity.


Ugh, collectivists.
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 19:02:46
October 11 2012 19:01 GMT
#16
It's interesting how the Slavic nations that were the pioneers of social freedoms and human equality are now becoming rather conservative and contradicting their policies of the 20th century.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
October 11 2012 19:03 GMT
#17
On October 12 2012 03:49 Klondikebar wrote:
"He elaborates that the free speech of the gay minorities is a violation of other people's right to not to have to hear something offensive."

This is patently silly. Are gay people's rights violated because they have to hear the offensive line "being gay is a sin?" This really just harkens back to John Stewart when he said "you are confusing a war on religion with simply not getting your way anymore."

What sort of free speech positions does the Ukraine take? Are they as strong as they are in the US?

Edit: I also didn't realize their HIV rate was so high. If people are still stuck on the myth that homosexuality spreads HIV faster than heterosexuality then that could be the reason it's gaining such support.


The myth is rather tha HIV is much more common in homosexuals, particularly males, which is very true. That's not a myth when you look at percents. Homosexual males don't need to use a condom as a form of birth control and at the same time anal sex is significantly more likely to contract HIV due to the increased probability of minor cuts being exposed. Just like a heterosexual couple partaking in anal sex is more likely to contract HIV if one of the partners has HIV/AIDS than if they just had vaginal sex.
ThomasjServo
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
15244 Posts
October 11 2012 19:04 GMT
#18
On October 12 2012 03:58 DidYuhim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2012 03:53 ThomasjServo wrote:
I don't mean to lump the region into a neat little package, but from my studies I know that other minority groups (specifically Romani) still have large social hurdles to overcome in Eastern Europe as a region in general.

The trick is, they don't even try. Romani are known for being thieves and frauds, supported by statistics.

I would really ask you to stop judging the country without knowing anything about it.


There was no judgement implied, apologies if it came off that way, every country has a group which is statistically supported to disproportionately represented with respect to crime statistics. That group was simply the first to come to mind.

I only hoped to liken it so much as both are minority groups which are being assigned negative stereotypes at some level, though ostensibly the Romani earned the reputation per your response.

Again, apologies if I've offended.
Archas
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6531 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 19:12:42
October 11 2012 19:04 GMT
#19
On October 12 2012 03:54 JackReacher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2012 03:49 Klondikebar wrote:
This is patently silly. Are gay people's rights violated because they have to hear the offensive line "being gay is a sin?" This really just harkens back to John Stewart when he said "you are confusing a war on religion with simply not getting your way anymore."

Quoted, simply because I don't think anything has ever made MORE sense to me in my entire life. Sadly, this is true of the entire social conservative agenda.

Agreed for the most part. I do like that Stewart quote, and although I don't particularly enjoy endorsing generalizations, much of the "anti-gay" crap going around really can be attributed to social conservatism. The way I see it, people with religious backgrounds (for the most part) were getting uncomfortable about the idea that they may be slightly personally inconvenienced in order to vastly improve how society understands and accepts homosexuality. Since religion and various political regimes have condemned homosexuality for so many years (to varying extents), these people didn't like how they were outside of their comfort zone, and are fighting to bring back bigotry.

Silly. It's all so silly. Can't we just love one another and get along? :/

On October 12 2012 03:56 Navi wrote:
"gay propaganda = anti-aids information?"

T_T
seems like misinformation as a society

Funnily enough, spreading misinformation is one of the primary effects of propaganda.

On October 12 2012 03:55 Wrath 2.1 wrote:
that's good. Sex life should be something private and not something that needs advertising or parades.

Isn't the main purpose of a gay pride parade to get people to understand and accept homosexuality? People wouldn't be holding gay pride parades if homosexuals weren't discriminated against the way they are.

On October 12 2012 03:58 DidYuhim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2012 03:53 ThomasjServo wrote:
I don't mean to lump the region into a neat little package, but from my studies I know that other minority groups (specifically Romani) still have large social hurdles to overcome in Eastern Europe as a region in general.

The trick is, they don't even try. Romani are known for being thieves and frauds, supported by statistics.

I would really ask you to stop judging the country without knowing anything about it.

+ Show Spoiler [A little off-topic, take to PMs?] +
I admit, I'm not privy to the experience of living in a country with Romani as a significant demographic, but I've noticed that whenever the subject of Romani comes up, people from those countries tend to launch vehement verbal attacks on them. Statistics and facts are well and good, but surely you must realize that it's a little unfair to judge all of a minority based on the actions of >all. Again, I'm not as informed as I'd like to be, but is this sort of sentiment (that all Romani are thieves, frauds, and criminals) generally supported by the general populace in Ukraine and related nations? Do the actions of a (relative) few really justify the hate that every Romani gets? How and why is this stigma so prevalent?
The room is ripe with the stench of bitches!
Euronyme
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden3804 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-11 19:12:08
October 11 2012 19:07 GMT
#20
LOL tolerant society decriminalizing homosexuality 1991?
It's only been legal here since 1934...

On October 12 2012 03:58 DidYuhim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 12 2012 03:53 ThomasjServo wrote:
I don't mean to lump the region into a neat little package, but from my studies I know that other minority groups (specifically Romani) still have large social hurdles to overcome in Eastern Europe as a region in general.

The trick is, they don't even try. Romani are known for being thieves and frauds, supported by statistics.

I would really ask you to stop judging the country without knowing anything about it.


That's because they've been treated worse than scum for thousands of years, and often have been sterilized by force by the local government as a standard practice.
Romani as a whole have a higher criminality rate, but it hardly means all of them are criminal, or even a big portion.
The treatment of Romani in eastern and southern Europe is a disgrace.
I bet i can maı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨̨̨̨̨̨ke you wipe your screen.
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