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PGTOUR Season 6 Race/Map Balance Stats

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
mitsy
Profile Joined October 2005
United States1792 Posts
February 12 2006 20:59 GMT
#1
I. The Data

So according to bill, u need about 2000 games on a map to have it's statistics with some reliability.

A 22.6% PGT - R - Point 1.0 [06] 132798
A 20.6% PGT - Rush Hour 2.0 [06] 120992
A 19.3% PGT - Luna The Final [06] 113356
A 16.7% PGT - Neo Forte 2.1 [06] 98433
A 08.8% PGT - Lost Temple 2.4 [06] 51818
A 05.2% PGT - Gaia 1.0 [06] 30375
F 02.7% PGT - Blade Storm 1.5 [06] 15979
F 01.9% PGT - Ride of Valkyries [06] 11182
F 00.5% PGT - Plains to Hill 2.1 [06] 2895
F 00.4% PGT - Neo Requiem 2.0 [06] 2324

So I can look at the relative balances between these, as I did with PGTour's Season 5.

PvZ Blade Storm 44.6
PvT Blade Storm 52.9
TvZ Blade Storm 55.0


PvZ Gaia 45.6
PvT Gaia 50.1
TvZ Gaia 52.4


PvZ Lost Temple 46.2
PvT Lost Temple 49.1
TvZ Lost Temple 52.2

PvZ Luna 44.8
PvT Luna 54.4
TvZ Luna 49.1

PvZ Forte 47.7
PvT Forte 55.6
TvZ Forte 53.5

PvZ Requiem 47.4
PvT Requiem 66.7
TvZ Requiem 49.0

PvZ Plains to Hill 47.3
PvT Plains to Hill 55.0
TvZ Plains to Hill 53.2

PvZ R - Point 46.7
PvT R - Point 50.1
TvZ R - Point 55.5

PvZ Ride of Valkyries 45.7
PvT Ride of Valkyries 54.9
TvZ Ride of Valkyries 51.9

PvZ Rush Hour 43.9
PvT Rush Hour 52.3
TvZ Rush Hour 53.5


II. The Matchups

We can see which map is "hardest" and "easiest" for each matchup by sorting them by matchup.

(worst for toss)
PvZ Rush Hour 43.9 (-6.1)
PvZ Blade Storm 44.6 (-5.4)
PvZ Luna 44.8 (-5.2)
PvZ Gaia 45.6 (-4.4)
PvZ Ride of Valkyries 45.7 (-4.3)
PvZ Lost Temple 46.2 (-3.8)
PvZ R - Point 46.7 (-3.3)
PvZ Plains to Hill 47.3 (-2.7)
PvZ Requiem 47.4 (-2.6)
PvZ Forte 47.7 (-2.3)
("worst" for zerg)

(worst for toss)
PvT Lost Temple 49.1 (-0.9)
PvT Gaia 50.1 (+0.1)
PvT R - Point 50.1 (+0.1)
PvT Rush Hour 52.3 (+2.3)
PvT Blade Storm 52.9 (+2.9)
PvT Luna 54.4 (+4.4)
PvT Ride of Valkyries 54.9 (+4.9)
PvT Plains to Hill 55.0 (+5.0)
PvT Forte 55.6 (+5.6)
PvT Requiem 66.7 (+16.7)
(worst for terran)

(worst for terran)
TvZ Requiem 49.0 (-1.0)
TvZ Luna 49.1 (-0.9)
TvZ Ride of Valkyries 51.9 (+1.9)
TvZ Lost Temple 52.2 (+2.2)
TvZ Gaia 52.4 (+2.4)

TvZ Plains to Hill 53.2 (+3.2)
TvZ Rush Hour 53.5 (+3.5)
TvZ Forte 53.5 (+3.5)
TvZ Blade Storm 55.0 (+5.0)

TvZ R - Point 55.5 (+5.5)
(worst for zerg)

III. Absolute "Fairness"

We can judge the various imbalances if we sort by "difference from 50."

The "obviously fair" means that it was in favor of the race even though it was their "worst", i.e. they won more than they lost, despite it being their "worst."

PvT Requiem 66.7 (+16.7) worst TvP for terran
PvZ Rush Hour 43.9 (-6.1) worst PvZ for toss
PvT Forte 55.6 (+5.6) 2nd worst TvP for terran
TvZ R - Point 55.5 (+5.5) worst ZvT for zerg
PvZ Blade Storm 44.6 (-5.4) 2nd worst PvZ for toss
PvZ Luna 44.8 (-5.2) 3rd worst PvZ for toss
PvT Plains to Hill 55.0 (+5.0) 3rd worst TvP for terran
TvZ Blade Storm 55.0 (+5.0) 2nd worst ZvT for zerg

PvT Ride of Valkyries 54.9 (+4.9) 4th worst TvP for terran
PvT Luna 54.4 (+4.4) 5th worst TvP for terran
PvZ Gaia 45.6 (-4.4) 4th worst PvZ for toss
PvZ Ride of Valkyries 45.7 (-4.3) 5th worst PvZ for toss
PvZ Lost Temple 46.2 (-3.8) 5th worst ZvP for zerg obviously fair
TvZ Forte 53.5 (+3.5) 3rd worst ZvT for zerg
TvZ Rush Hour 53.5 (+3.5) 4th worst ZvT for zerg
PvZ R - Point 46.7 (-3.3) 4th worst ZvP for zerg obviously fair
TvZ Plains to Hill 53.2 (+3.2) 5th worst ZvT for zerg
PvT Blade Storm 52.9 (+2.9) 5th worst PvT for toss obviously fair
PvZ Plains to Hill 47.3 (-2.7) 3rd worst ZvP for zerg obviously fair
PvZ Requiem 47.4 (-2.6) 2nd worst ZvP for zerg obviously fair
TvZ Gaia 52.4 (+2.4) 5th worst TvZ for terran obviously fair

PvZ Forte 47.7 (-2.3) worst ZvP for zerg obviously fair
PvT Rush Hour 52.3 (+2.3) 4th worst PvT for toss obviously fair
TvZ Lost Temple 52.2 (+2.2) 4th worst TvZ for terran obviously fair
TvZ Ride of Valkyries 51.9 (+1.9) 3rd worst TvZ for terran obviously fair
TvZ Requiem 49.0 (-1.0) worst TvZ for terran
TvZ Luna 49.1 (-0.9) 2nd worst TvZ for terran
PvT Lost Temple 49.1 (-0.9) worst PvT for toss
PvT Gaia 50.1 (+0.1) 2nd worst PvT for toss obviously fair
PvT R - Point 50.1 (+0.1) 3rd worst PvT for toss obviously fair

IV. Interpretations

1. We can try to get a grasp on this by looking for opinions that are consistent with these stats:
"Rpoint is imbalanced TvP for T." (ManaBlue) Well, it's the 3rd worst map for TOSS, not TERRAN, out of these maps, and that's by a 0.1% advantage (plus whatever the margin of error may be). The OGN stats say it is fair, and so do the PGT stats now.

2. Many people cry that Luna is super balanced, and others whine. We can see why, for both.
PvZ Luna 44.8 (-5.2) 3rd worst PvZ for toss
PvT Luna 54.4 (+4.4) 5th worst TvP for terran
TvZ Luna 49.1 (-0.9) 2nd worst TvZ for terran

What you could say is that 5.2% is not unfair by today's standards, and certainly 4.4% isn't. Compare this to Gaia, another map loved for its balance:
PvZ Gaia 45.6 (-4.4) 4th worst PvZ for toss
TvZ Gaia 52.4 (+2.4) 5th worst TvZ for terran obviously fair
PvT Gaia 50.1 (+0.1) 2nd worst PvT for toss obviously fair
While Gaia may have two "closer" matchups, the point is that 4.4% is accepted.

What's interesting to note is luna's PVZ. If it is considered fair at 5.2%, the 3rd worst PvZ for toss out of these maps (and why not? it's not much different than toss's BEST PvZ in this list), should we accept 5.2% in general? less conclusive.

3. People have agreed there is a slight Z>P on LT, and a slight T>P.
PvZ Lost Temple 46.2 (-3.8) 5th worst ZvP for zerg obviously fair
TvZ Lost Temple 52.2 (+2.2) 4th worst TvZ for terran
PvT Lost Temple 49.1 (-0.9) worst PvT for toss

The obviously fair meant for Zerg, since it's their 5th worst Z/P MU, despite still having a 3.8% advantage. Point is, in this world, zerg having a 3.8% advantage is relatively good for toss, better than at least 5 other maps in this list! So we should accept 3.8% as fair, in general? It may be slight anti-P, but it's standard. Zerg would bitch about 0%, maybe? And all of these advantages are under 4.4%, which we agree is fair.

4. Ride of Valkyrie is considered "slightly toss:"
PvT Ride of Valkyries 54.9 (+4.9) 4th worst TvP for terran
PvZ Ride of Valkyries 45.7 (-4.3) 5th worst PvZ for toss
TvZ Ride of Valkyries 51.9 (+1.9) 3rd worst TvZ for terran

So either that refers only to PvT, where "4.9%" means slight, or it means that toss having a 4.3% disadvantage vs zerg actually feels pretty good, which is believable. The question is, do terrans bitch about this map vs toss or not? If so, 4.9% is sufficient to cause bitching. If not, we're doing okay.

It seems, so far, that 4.4% or lower do not cause bitching but rather, allow happiness. Above this (5.2%, 4.9%) are inconclusive at this point.

5. People say requiem is free win in PvZ and PvT.
PvT Requiem 66.7 (+16.7) worst TvP for terran
PvZ Requiem 47.4 (-2.6) 2nd worst ZvP for zerg obviously fair
TvZ Requiem 49.0 (-1.0) worst TvZ for terran

The 16.7% advantage is set far apart from the pack, so there's no question of an imba for TvP.

PvZ, while looking slight (a 2.6% disadvantage for toss, actually), may actually be considered "too hard" for zerg? This is interesting, but let's just say that statistically, zerg need to accept this map. They still have the advantage. Why would it be unfair for them?

6. People say bladestorm is too hard for zvt, and also "gay tvp" whatever that means.
PvZ Blade Storm 44.6 (-5.4) 2nd worst PvZ for toss
TvZ Blade Storm 55.0 (+5.0) 2nd worst ZvT for zerg
PvT Blade Storm 52.9 (+2.9) 5th worst PvT for toss obviously fair

So terran having a 5.0% advantage is unacceptable according to good players. Now we're getting somewhere.

And again we see a race complaining of their advantage not being high enough. What does that mean? A 2.9% advantage in PvT is "unfair" for toss?

Maybe margin of error can explain these oddities but I suspect it is just a double standard, one race being expected to win more in a given matchup (BW is traditionally thought of as slight Z>P, slight P>T).

Bladestorm is also the 2nd worst for toss PvZ, at 5.4%. But is this still considered fair and standard?

7. Everyone says P2H is a great, unique map with good balance.
PvT Plains to Hill 55.0 (+5.0) 3rd worst TvP for terran
TvZ Plains to Hill 53.2 (+3.2) 5th worst ZvT for zerg
PvZ Plains to Hill 47.3 (-2.7) 3rd worst ZvP for zerg obviously fair

Toss have a 5 point advantage over terran, but as we have seen, toss are _expected_ to have some advantage so maybe this is why the 5 points is accepted, while in other matchups it's not.

5th worst is pretty good, for ZvT. Zerg only are down 3.2 points to T. We saw people complain about 5. But 3.2 is acceptable. Again, with the margin of error here this might make more sense.

The PvZ falls within the standard we see above. Toss have a slight disadvantage (2.7) but this is relatively a hard map for zerg in this matchup.

So this is what a fair map looks like. Slightly P>T, slightly Z>P, slightly T>Z. but only slightly. These are what people accept. If you saw a map that was opposite these biases, it would be considered "extremely" unfair. P>Z SUCKS, T>P SUCKS, Z>T SUCKS. The community chooses to err on one side in these matters.


We still need to add in "margin of error."

so what we could do is try to map the average as C. the middle of the C grade would be 23545.88.

so (89+70)/2 = 79.5
79.5% grade should equal 23545.88 games. so then the question becomes, what is 100 worth then? 23545.88games/79.5% = Ngames/100.% --> Ngames = 100.% 23545.88games/79.5%

90-100 A 26656+
80-99 B 23694-26655
70-89 C 20732-23693
60-79 D 17770-20731
0-59 F 0-17769

A 22.6% PGT - R - Point 1.0 [06] 132798
A 20.6% PGT - Rush Hour 2.0 [06] 120992
A 19.3% PGT - Luna The Final [06] 113356
A 16.7% PGT - Neo Forte 2.1 [06] 98433
A 08.8% PGT - Lost Temple 2.4 [06] 51818
A 05.2% PGT - Gaia 1.0 [06] 30375
F 02.7% PGT - Blade Storm 1.5 [06] 15979
F 01.9% PGT - Ride of Valkyries [06] 11182
F 00.5% PGT - Plains to Hill 2.1 [06] 2895
F 00.4% PGT - Neo Requiem 2.0 [06] 2324

so much for the 10 point scale.
express yourself--madonna
mitsy
Profile Joined October 2005
United States1792 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-02-12 21:23:07
February 12 2006 21:20 GMT
#2
Looking at section 2 after reading section 4, I think maybe this:

1. What "seems" unfair:
TvZ Blade Storm 55.0 (+5.0)
TvZ R - Point 55.5 (+5.5)

PvT Forte 55.6 (+5.6)
PvT Requiem 66.7 (+16.7)

PvZ Rush Hour 43.9 (-6.1)
PvZ Blade Storm 44.6 (-5.4)

Conclusion? Remove Blade Storm and Requiem. Can't do anything about Rush Hour, Forte, or R - Point (courage maps).

2. What "might" be unfair: (grey area?)

PvZ Luna 44.8 (-5.2)

PvT Ride of Valkyries 54.9 (+4.9)
PvT Plains to Hill 55.0 (+5.0)

The TvZ drop off quickly after those 2 maps, i don't want to include 3.5% advantages there.

But if these maps are acceptable, the rest all should be as well. Are people fine with Luna's PvZ, RoV's PvT, P2H's PvT? If so, we can be easily convinced that we have a good standard of balance. If not, we need to go further. Just to put it out there:

3. If We reject the maps above, what is the "next" grey area?

PvZ Gaia 45.6 (-4.4)
PvZ Ride of Valkyries 45.7 (-4.3)

PvT Luna 54.4 (+4.4)

The old 4.4 mystery. Everyone likes 4.4% or less! REmember? Right? So in conclusion, the maps in part 1 are probably imba. Part 2 maybe. Every other matchup is GOOD!!!!!!

A 22.6% PGT - R - Point 1.0 [06] 132798 IMBA!
A 20.6% PGT - Rush Hour 2.0 [06] 120992 IMBA!
A 16.7% PGT - Neo Forte 2.1 [06] 98433 IMBA!
F 02.7% PGT - Blade Storm 1.5 [06] 15979 IMBA!
F 00.4% PGT - Neo Requiem 2.0 [06] 2324 IMBA!

A 19.3% PGT - Luna The Final [06] 113356 MAYBE?
F 01.9% PGT - Ride of Valkyries [06] 11182 MAYBE?
F 00.5% PGT - Plains to Hill 2.1 [06] 2895 MAYBE?

A 08.8% PGT - Lost Temple 2.4 [06] 51818 FAIR!
A 05.2% PGT - Gaia 1.0 [06] 30375 FAIR!
express yourself--madonna
araav
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Armenia1590 Posts
February 12 2006 21:37 GMT
#3
sorry for saying this, but it's useless unless it's done for all levels D to A.
and count on maps with >10000 games, not 2000

anyways, good job
The flower that blooms in adversity is the most rare and beautiful of all.
mitsy
Profile Joined October 2005
United States1792 Posts
February 12 2006 21:44 GMT
#4
that's true, but we wouldn't have enough games for any of these maps if we restricted it to 10k on each level. 10k games at A level? never happens :/ so you think the stats for P2H and requiem are suspect?
express yourself--madonna
SolaR-
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States2685 Posts
February 12 2006 21:46 GMT
#5
On February 13 2006 06:37 araav wrote:
sorry for saying this, but it's useless unless it's done for all levels D to A.
and count on maps with >10000 games, not 2000

anyways, good job


why would you want d ranks or even c ranks in trying to determine balance, you want people who have a good knowledge of the game to determine if it is a good balanced map. D and C ranks will just skew the percentages and make maps look less balanced then what they are
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-02-12 21:50:29
February 12 2006 21:49 GMT
#6
Luna PvZ is MUCH better than LT PvZ, no idea why the stats don't show this o_o

On February 13 2006 06:37 araav wrote:
sorry for saying this, but it's useless unless it's done for all levels D to A.
and count on maps with >10000 games, not 2000

anyways, good job


I think it's done for all levels.. He doesn't have stats for only A (although that would be MUCH, MUCH more accurate in terms of balance ).
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
mitsy
Profile Joined October 2005
United States1792 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-02-12 22:41:33
February 12 2006 22:22 GMT
#7
it would be useful to see C and D stats to compare them to the other ranks, so we know how much these existing numbers are skewed by people who don't know what they're doing. that (or the margin of error) could explain the luna/LT discrepency FA describes, for instance. maybe newbies ruin LT less than luna (newer map)

keep in mind this ol' thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=35120
express yourself--madonna
tfeign
Profile Joined June 2004
United States2980 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-02-12 22:48:27
February 12 2006 22:47 GMT
#8
Luna much better than lt on pvz is too much a stretch. It's about the same.

So lt has the cliffs, but makes up for it by the closer distances. Luna has no cliffs, but distances between bases are wide apart. Plus the middle of the map is huge. And then you have the 12/3 positions situation which occurs in once out of every 6 games, where p should have advantage over z. Balance that all out and you get about a little bit better percentage on lt than luna. The stats make sense.
GrandInquisitor *
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
New York City13113 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-02-12 23:02:44
February 12 2006 23:01 GMT
#9
i never understand why people insist on trying to balance maps for all three matchups

from those stats, just do this:

Play TvZ on Luna
Play PvT on Gaia, R-Point, or LT
Play PvZ on....nothing apparently lol. Maybe Forte/Requiem, but no PvZ matchup is balanced on any map to the extent that TvZ/PvT can be balanced.

why hold out for some holy grail map that can balance everything, when we have fine maps for each matchup right now?
What fun is it being cool if you can’t wear a sombrero?
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
February 12 2006 23:34 GMT
#10
i hope your kidding...
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
February 12 2006 23:39 GMT
#11
On February 13 2006 08:01 GrandInquisitor wrote:
i never understand why people insist on trying to balance maps for all three matchups

from those stats, just do this:

Play TvZ on Luna
Play PvT on Gaia, R-Point, or LT
Play PvZ on....nothing apparently lol. Maybe Forte/Requiem, but no PvZ matchup is balanced on any map to the extent that TvZ/PvT can be balanced.

why hold out for some holy grail map that can balance everything, when we have fine maps for each matchup right now?


cuz maybe sometimes you don't get to choose what map to play on? :\ that is unless you keep leaving the games you join because you dont like the matchup on those certain maps which woul be really annoying lol -_-;;

and good job mitsy, you must've spent a lotta time on this thing lol o_O
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7225 Posts
February 13 2006 00:06 GMT
#12
Alot of these stats are worthless. Many of the people who contribute to this (probably well over the majority) are people who arent good. IE 16.7% pvt winrate for requiem. requiem is pretty gay sometimes, but thats only because of the availablity of openings for protoss as opposed to terran. the only reason protoss has any real advantage is because of the reverse ramp making goon harass much easier/effective. Once you learn how to play the map i dont think its that bad at all. That is another factor, if a person does not know how to play the map/cant adapt/map doesnt fit their playstyle they will contribute greatly to the "imbalance" factor.

For example.

I suck shit tvp on luna.
It doesnt really suit the way i play.
P seems to have much more build variables than terran.

However, if you watch pro terrans play, while i still think it favors protoss, its not as bad. The main thing is the playstyle is very different from maps of old (read lost temple) So people who do not like to play the style of play, or who simply suck at it (me) Are going to make the map look much more "imbalanced" than it really is.


I think if you are going to take stats at all you should take them from players of a certain high rank vs players of a high rank near that level aswell say. A high players are relativly equal to A- players. A high player who beats a C high player on his way to A will make the statistics look more in his races favor etc.


Just take for example, top 10 people vs top 10 people statistics,. Top 10-20 vs top 10-20 etc.

Statistics as broad as this do not matter at all.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
8882
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
2718 Posts
February 13 2006 03:46 GMT
#13
of course ZvT imbalance is omitted and not worth discussing :/

also the PvT 16% is hilarious
I have returned
araav
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Armenia1590 Posts
February 13 2006 14:17 GMT
#14
On February 13 2006 06:44 mitsy wrote:
so you think the stats for P2H and requiem are suspect?

exactly as besides the amount of games it's also obvious the vast majority of games on those maps were played by sucky D/C players.

FA, by saying the work should be done for each level i meant it would be nice to have these stats for each level separately. we than would know how imba is the game for each level.

Err... because many good things could be collected/observed from the stats... how about asking Pat to share the games database?
The flower that blooms in adversity is the most rare and beautiful of all.
BadBinky
Profile Blog Joined May 2004
Finland649 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-02-13 15:55:15
February 13 2006 15:53 GMT
#15
In my opinion zerg>protoss on LT but for example 12v3 protoss is better. There are same kind of start location biases in other maps too :o This affect statistics because some ppl leave game before 2min if they spawn at 12 as zerg and find protoss at 3.
Also if your race is random it will show on statistics.
It's more important to be tough than to have any fun.
HanN00b
Profile Joined October 2005
Germany1441 Posts
February 14 2006 05:32 GMT
#16
@Mitsy

I have posted a news about your work at www.Broodwar.de

Nice work gg
Team name: Borussia Dortmunds Star(craft) Team (10) (Z)Jaedong (Captain) (7) (P)JangBi (2) (T)Bogus (2) (Z)sAviOr (2) (P)BackHo (0) (Z)YellOw (7) Lecaf Oz
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