never gonna give you up
never gonna get replaced
never gonna run you round
or get replaced!
also why is wbg smurfing in his own game? :p
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
never gonna give you up never gonna get replaced never gonna run you round or get replaced! also why is wbg smurfing in his own game? :p | ||
strongandbig
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So this game I'm gonna work on a few things, I want people to let me know if you think I'm falling into one of these bad habits. I'm gonna try extra hard to avoid tunnel vision and to avoid getting pissed off at Mattchew. Toodles! | ||
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On July 12 2012 02:05 Mattchew wrote: s&b ill try really hard this game just for you yaaaaay its like its my birthday hurraaaaaaaaaaaay | ||
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i am currently watching Le Closer in french in my hotel room. Scum y'all best get ready to get motherfucking interrogated | ||
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For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. | ||
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I am in Europe, so I will be asleep at times when most of you are active. I work at CERN so I will be busy a lot of the time that I'm awake. At night before sleep is about the only time I can be relied on to post, although I'll try and do more of this sort of long-post-from-the-bus as long as the thread doesn't get too big for my phone to cache the "all pages" view. So much for the lurking. I'm curious though - why do you accuse me of "actively" lurking? Is there a reason for you thinking I was "active" at the time of your post? Or was it just because you wanted to justify your vote on me, and "active" lurking is scummier than "normal" lurking, which is much closer to an accurate description? | ||
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Marv, I know there's a strong positive correlation between "number of games played on TL" and "percentage of posts that consist purely of insults and trololol," but I was kind of hoping we weren't there yet. Let's see what's wrong with this picture so far. On July 12 2012 19:25 marvellosity wrote: Like seriously, how do you spend a post that long that actually only says "talis plan is scummy, but he always does it" that's literally the only content You forgot "Marv should know this, and him throwing out Talismania right away as a lynch target is suspicious." Because you should know this. I know you were obsing Bastard 2 where Talismania did this as town. And you were obsing SSB where he did this as town. And you played in Space Station where he did the same thing as town. That's three games. Plus he even referred to the fact that he does this as town and I find him scummy for it in the same post where he did it. So yeah, you throwing out Talismania as a lynch target for no good reason is suspicious and I stand by that. As for the number of times you've rolled scum - you're forgetting MTG mafia. That counts, since before the game no one knew you were going to just leave Toad to play it. So I can only go back so far in time, due to the limitations of the TL search function, but it seems to me that in your last five games you were town in moviestar, scum in LV, town in bangbang, scum in mtg, and unknown in normal mini 2 since that's still ongoing. LVI doesn't count for these purposes since you replaced in, and LV is as far back as the search function goes. So that looks pretty much like 50% to me. Obviously you were probably town a lot more than scum back before your first scum game, because hosts wouldn't be like "he's a good scum player" until whatever that first game was that you won as scum. Anyway, that's beside the point - it doesn't really matter. As I said in my original post, it's just another reason to keep you under close scrutiny. The fact that you've won either 2/2 or 3/3 games where you were scum, depending on whether we count mtg, is enough - it's proven you're hard to identify as scum. Neither of those are reasons to lynch you or think you're scum by themselves. They are only reasons to keep you under the microscope. And sorry if my post was too long for you or if you got bored or whatever. I was sitting on the bus for like forty minutes with no internet and nothing to do but write it :p. | ||
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And I didn't know you replaced into LV, that does change my math. But as I've said every single time we've talked about it, that stuff is beside the point. The point is, I'm still watching you. | ||
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On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak. Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? Do you have any suggestions as to how to be more townie? Meanwhile, I feel like there's something to be read in Gonzaw's post about Derpbear - I'm just not sure what. Dropbera accuses Gonzaw of tryharding overmuch, when he's just Gonzawing - then Gonzaw attacks him in a way that I'm pretty sure either exaggerates or straight up mischaracterizes dropper's tiny filter. hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I'll think some more about this later tonight. Gonzaw, have you and DropBurp ever played together before? | ||
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On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote: Show nested quote + On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) marvellosity On July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote: On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing: since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). no next On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote. Two things. One, Show nested quote + this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no." He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others:
Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes. I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this" I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic. He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. I'm getting some seriously bad vibes from the first half of this post - it seems like there's way too much detail responding to Talis's "you copied marv" thing, when one or two sentences would do. (and when I'm telling you you put too much detail into a post, you've got a problem.) Then you jump back into actually arguing about whether or not the plan is a good idea, which even tali has moved on from. | ||
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On July 13 2012 01:49 Vivax wrote: Show nested quote + On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote: What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? No, he doesn't have to be townie. But I initially voted for him cause he didn't post anything, then he posted the metagame info and I found it good enough to unvote him. I remember sciberbia for more concise, compact posts, and I remember him posting really early. He already explained why he didn't post early in this game, so what remains are the posts that subjectively look different to me. But I prefer to not rely heavily on meta, my play changes often aswell and I don't have as much experience. Anyway, I don't like Matt's filter, it looks like he posts rather meaningless content, no active scumhunting in it, rather commenting on what other players already said. He also acts a little differently than in LVI. i dont think i've ever seen a game where matt posts meaningful content or does active scumhunting. well, active scumhunting that isn't stupid. | ||
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On July 13 2012 05:46 gonzaw wrote: austinmcc: I'll ignore his 1st post since it has nothing worthwhile in it. Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Big fluffy post. Like talis said, he seems to "add" something to the "talis' plan is bad" discussion....but he doesn't add much at all. Saying it will clog up the thread is not news, and Mattchew and others said what was wrong with the plan before. The worst thing is he makes a great deal out of it by basing his whole post on that part. I say basing his "whole" post because his 2nd paragraph is like the biggest pile of fluff ever. Did you really need to post so much just to ask "What do you guys think of gonzaw's scum play?" or something? Like...your whole post could be reduced to "tali's plan is bad and I want to know how you guys catch gonzaw as scum", which means your post is SOLELY filler, and as you can see that statement alone doesn't contribute anything about the game either. Really...that post is pretty bad. Show nested quote + On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote: On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) marvellosity On July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote: On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing: since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). no next On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote. Two things. One, He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no." Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others:
Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes. I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this" I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic. He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. Talking about bad posts. That 1st part is absolutely unnecessary. He keeps talking about tali's plan and tali's accusation of him, but why? Talis said that austin was suspicious because he didn't add much about his criticism of his plan before.....so why did he feel the need to explain everything about how bad that plan is after being called out? Talis didn't tell him "you are suspicious because you can't find reasons why my plan is bad", so why did he spend like 4 paragraphs and a wall of text to explain so? Even more importantly....why does it matter? How could heavily debating why tali's plan was bad (even after 90% had already stated why) be any helpful at all? It just clutters things up and makes your post look big, and of course it just makes it so you appear active and contributing when you haven't done shit until then. The 2nd part is equally bad: Show nested quote + He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. WTF!!?? So the player you find most interesting is one you think is town? Also I don't get it, he seems to accuse Risen of many things, but then says he thinks he's town, but then he keeps accusing Risen. That seems very inconsistent, what does he actually think of Risen? If he thought Risen was town...why waste his post on posting his thoughts on someone he thinks is town? Why not ignore it and post about someone he thinks is scum? As you can see...later he never posts anything at all about who he thinks is scum, nothing. Just like S&B's accusation of austin, austin accuses Risen but never mentions him later (albeit he didn't have that many posts). That seems fishy as fuck. Strong&Big Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. I fully agree with Mattchew here: Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak. S&B gets very defensive at being called "active lurker", and says he wants to "establish his innocence" but he's not doing anything like that at all. Check the next posts in his filter, it's just him bickering against marv about the "balance" issue (that has nothing to do with the game). The next thing he does is make half-assed accusations he never seems to follow through: Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 23:35 strongandbig wrote: On July 12 2012 22:39 Mattchew wrote: Strong I feel like the entirety of your posts could easily be made by either town or scum, if this is you trying to establish your alignment you have done a poor job with me. Your post is longwinded and looks to explain your thought process, but we both know that 95% of your posts content has nothing to do with this game at all. Not only that but your early attempt at a read on marv does not even account for his other posts in the thread. And your reasoning for voting him from this game is too, extremely weak. Sorry bro, but that's kind of the nature of the game I guess - any post could be made either by scum or by town? Do you have any suggestions as to how to be more townie? Meanwhile, I feel like there's something to be read in Gonzaw's post about Derpbear - I'm just not sure what. Dropbera accuses Gonzaw of tryharding overmuch, when he's just Gonzawing - then Gonzaw attacks him in a way that I'm pretty sure either exaggerates or straight up mischaracterizes dropper's tiny filter. hmmmmmmmmmmm...... I'll think some more about this later tonight. Gonzaw, have you and DropBurp ever played together before? Show nested quote + On July 13 2012 01:54 strongandbig wrote: On July 13 2012 01:31 austinmcc wrote: On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) marvellosity On July 12 2012 08:54 marvellosity wrote: On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing: since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). no next On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: On July 12 2012 11:06 Mattchew wrote: Anyway I want to hear more from austin his first post doesnt sit well with me That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Talis, underlined portions of Marv's posts are what I interpret as his reactions to your plan. Underlined portions of mine are my reaction that I wrote. Two things. One, He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. this. If you think I'm just "expanding on" marv, that IS adding something. Otherwise Marv's initial "no" is it, and EVERYONE who disagreed is just "expanding on no." Two, here WAS new content, specific scenarios that I noted your plan could lead to, which I think are bad and weren't mentioned by others:
Overall, I think your plan is bad if you want us to follow, and still bad if you want to gauge reactions to it. You got responses from a little more than half the thread, which is alright, but you need a plan that SOME people want if you're going to actually generate "discussion." You got reactions, but not actual discussion. People weren't weighing the pros and cons of the plan, people were just saying no to it. That doesn't get you the sort of interactions that I want to draw conclusions from, because nobody gains town OR scum points for being the 5th or 6th person to pooh pooh a plan that nobody likes. I'm more interested in Risen though. Need to read him and see if he actually doesn't have scumreads early, but does that sit alright with people? My D1 reads are AWFUL, but I still have them. How do you read the game as town and not have scumreads? On July 12 2012 15:18 Risen wrote: I think it's too early for anything. I don't really like to make reads without any connections (this might be a bad thing to do). I just think it's easier for me to make cases when I consider people as members of a team, not as individual scum members. Anyway, Risen's filter is a lot of talking about how he's going to play this game. Which is helpful, lets us know his plan and can explain away some differences in behavior. But it's basically filler about oneself. Early interaction with Gonzaw, which ends with this: On July 12 2012 10:38 Risen wrote: I was just pointing out I found it odd you would try and push people onto "lurkers" so early on. I don't think anything about you. There's nothing to go on right now. I don't think that post was in your favor, though. When he speaks about DropBear later, we get: On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. On July 12 2012 15:25 Risen wrote: I don't like how drop is trying to take the lead here and I think previously with all this "hey mate decent line but try this instead" or "hey mate lets be bros but I don't think you should be doing this" I generally don't like anything that could be considered guidance coming from anywhere other than a plan with spelled out logic. He could be scum bussing a scumbuddy. He could be scum calling out town. He's probably a townie. He's a townie but I don't like what he's doing. A lot of filter, but nothing really said. Dunno. Being wrong as a townie is plenty forgiveable. It's going to happen, especially on the early days. But not scumhunting, or not having reads until later in the game, isn't helpful to town at all. Even if you don't trust your reads early as much as your reads late, you've got to contribute. Apart from just not having contributed much except the discussions concerning Gonzaw and DropBear, neither of whom he has any strong feelings on, it just doesn't feel like Risen has done anything this game despite having a lot of posts. I'm getting some seriously bad vibes from the first half of this post - it seems like there's way too much detail responding to Talis's "you copied marv" thing, when one or two sentences would do. (and when I'm telling you you put too much detail into a post, you've got a problem.) Then you jump back into actually arguing about whether or not the plan is a good idea, which even tali has moved on from. I don't see a vote, I don't see him trying to get other people's thoughts on them, and most importantly I don't really see him as actually interested in pressuring those people...he just seems to softly accuse them and nothing else. For instance take his austin "accusation".....does he think austin is scum or not? Like...what does he conclude? He just calls him out on something, but we don't know if he's accusing him or pressuring him or whatever, since he doesn't follow up on it later at all. For claiming he's trying to "establishing his innocence" he's doing a very bad job, he makes a fluffy post about "balance" and about "keeping an eye on marv", then keeps cluttering up the thread with that "balance" issue, then makes half-assed accusations against me+austin. Keirathi: Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 08:19 Keirathi wrote: sciberbia wrote: I'm not a big fan of lynching lurkers. Obviously, lurking hurts town, but I don't think lurking is all that alignment-indicative. Seeing as our goal is to lynch scum, I will only give slight preference to lynching the lurker over the active player, everything else being even. I'm not convinced that masons, millers, or roleblockers should claim, but I've never played in a setup quite like this before and I haven't thought much about it. I'll read up on the issue and see if I agree with you guys. Well, ideally since this is not a newbie game, we shouldn't have townies lurking much. Its a bit different in newbie games because people don't really know how to play, and since everyone here should have a decent idea of how to play, then people lurking is strategy rather than ignorance. That's not to say that I think lynching lurkers is a particularly good idea, but looking into lurkers has more merit in this type of game than a newbie one. As far as claims, I myself haven't played in a game where masons/roleblockers claimed, so I'll have to look into it, but I agree with the points made about RB'ers so far, so that at least makes sense. An unclaimed miller causes more confusion than its worth though, and I can't really think of a situation in which a miller wouldn't want to claim. This post seems a very "I'm trying to contribute here!" one. Spends WAY too much time talking about lurkers and policies, and doesn't even take any interesting stance in the mason/RBer issue (i.e if he had an interesting stance it would be actually a contribution). He just spouts some fluffy stuff about them that only serves to make his post bigger solstice called him out as "verbose" (which was right): Show nested quote + On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote: On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Yet he keeps doing the same thing. He's still "verbose", and his post doesn't contribute shit at all. He says "I'm verbose because of something irrelevant" and "Rehash of what other people said". Not only that, he acknowledges himself that he's rehashing what other people said....yet that doesn't prevent him from posting it and doesn't prevent him from trying to find something else to contribute. His other posts don't call too much attention, yet then he comes out of nowhere with this: Show nested quote + On July 13 2012 03:33 Keirathi wrote: On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing: + Show Spoiler + since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). So I was going back through the thread looking for more information, when this leaped out at me. When I read it the first time through, I didn't think anything of it because I don't have previous experience with you, but if you propose the same plan in every game you play in, then how is it "half-assed musing" this time? It feels like you're pre-emptively making an excuse for a bad plan. And why, as a townie, are you half-assing things anyways? ...???? This is so out of place it's not funny. Like, Vivax had 2 votes on him and a case against him, some other FoSes were flowing around (marv on S&B at first, then Vivax on Mattchew, etc); yet when Kei posts he thinks it's more useful to discuss tali's plan again? Not only that, but discuss something so pointless and irrelevant like tali's "motive" for making the plan because it was "half-assed" or some shit? Like....he completely ignored everything else in the thread, wtf? Now here's my dilemma: Who the fuck do I vote? I want all 3 dead Hmm, I think austin+Keirath are more likely scum than S&B, but I guess Keiarth could be just noob and plays like this because he's noob, so lets go with this. ##Vote: austinmcc Gee how did I guess Gonzaw was gonna post a ginormous wall of text calling me scum again. It's like, if Gonzaw doesn't call you scum, you're not doing things right. If you think that defending yourself against minor accusations is a scum tell then you haven't learned from the right scum sensei. Good scum want to ignore anything that calls attention to their minor inconsistencies or other problems with their play. It's townies who want to make sure they address little things like "active lurking" accusations. As well as whatever the fuck you're accusing me of here. So I guess your points are that I "defended myself too much" and "didn't back up my reads?" Dude did you not just play a game with me? I almost never vote during the first 24 hours of the day. The vote is a tool for pressuring people, not just something you use to announce who you think is scum. And what's wrong with me pointing out things that I find scummy? It's like the first half of the first day, I don't know enough about anyone yet to be sure they're scum. Yeah, I think austin's post was scummy; I think Marv's post was scummy. That doesn't mean I think we should lynch them, it means they should freaking explain yourselves or whatever. Christ gonzaw you're frustrating. And you say I "cluttered up the thread with the balance shit" - do you notice that every time I mentioned it I said "it doesn't matter" and "we should be focusing on whether we think what Marv said was scummy"? Because I only kept talking about it because he was accusing me of being scum because I said it. Yeah so Gonzaw you want me to vote for someone? Well tough fuckin' titties. I think it's interesting that Marv found that inconsistency with Vixen or whoever he is; but it's not conclusive by any means. Right now I actually agree with you that austin is the most likely scum; like I said in the post you quoted, he went way more in detail than he needed to in responding to the thing about copying other people, and he also tried to reopen the discussion of tali's shitty plan thing. But I'm not ready to vote on it yet. I want to see how he responds to your ridiculous wall of text. | ||
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- gonzaw i dont intend to respond like that to everyone who accuses me. Just you. I really didn't like the way you played in mtg mafia. - Austin: why are you acting as though talismania had this two-part plan? That's clearly not what happened. He just spewed his normal day1 plan, then later on decided to do the reaction thing to salvage some info, but you're acting as if the whole thing was premeditated. - keirathi is probably scum. combination of gut read plus he posted a couple things that look like what I would have done in my scum game when i was uber nub. look at his filter - he accuses two people but doesn't commit to either accusation. That in itself is suspect but not necessarily scum; but the accusations are for reasons that don't make sense. he accuses tali for saying his own plan is stupid and he accuses me for not calling tali scum b/c of his plan, when I was actually saying how I did exactly that in a previous game and tali was town. ##vote: keirathi (for now). - voting keirathi cause I can't tell yet whether austin is scum or just kinda flipping-out townie. austin i know you were in pyp or poison or something but was that your first game? - i can't read talismania yet, and I don't trust myself to read talismania at all. - I think mattchew is probably town but it's mostly just based on the fact that he's sort of trying to contribute. He's capable of playing a number of different ways as scum so I'm not sold one way or the other yet. See yall tomorrow! | ||
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On July 13 2012 16:52 Keirathi wrote: Show nested quote + On July 13 2012 16:46 DropBear wrote: I want to firmly stand by Keirathi, he is one of my strongest town reads right now. Err, what? How do you have a town read on me when literally everyone else has a scum read? This post makes me doubt my scum read on keirathi a little bit. It came out quickly after drop bear's post, and I don't think that a scummy player's first reaction would be to cast doubt on someone defending him. Of course, it could be a clever gambit. It's not conclusive. | ||
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On July 13 2012 22:47 gonzaw wrote: Show nested quote + On July 13 2012 22:33 marvellosity wrote: mafia means mafia, scum means anti-town, but ok gonzaw. I could squabble with you for hours Okay, Vivax may be the SK, happy now? >_> (actually, is there a SK this game?) Show nested quote + On July 13 2012 22:36 marvellosity wrote: gonzaw: what do you make of this? On July 13 2012 10:21 s0Lstice wrote: Miltonkram: I found to my sorrow that making a case on a town Talis is an easy thing to do. This also means that he is an attractive target for scum to harp on. I found Milton's reasoning strange. His filter is small, but there are several references to the use of meta. He uses meta to inform his reads on Keirathi, Sciberbia, and austin...but not his top scum read? I know for certain that the information he would find would be useful to him here. His case reads as phony, and I think there is a good chance he rolled scum again. Risen: I've spent a ton of time in his past games. The two biggest things he did when he was scum that he didn't do when he was town were: stressing repeatedly that it's too early to have reads, and being forthcoming/defending his 'town reads.' So far this game he has hit both of those marks. He defended Mattchew, and concluded that Dropbear being town is likely. He has said twice that it's too early to post reads. I feel better about lynching Miltonkram today, and as such: ##vote: Miltonkram This game his [austin's] effort matches, and I feel he has made some good points on Risen. Him matching his town meta is only one piece of my view on him, and it's largely unnecessary. His actions thus far seem pretty pro-town to me. On July 13 2012 11:33 Keirathi wrote: On July 13 2012 10:58 s0Lstice wrote: what do you think of Miltonkram, Marv? As an aside: your case against Risen feels stronger than your case against Milton anyways. I'm kind of suprised you voted the way you did. Mentioned elsewhere in my filter, but that was my gut reaction to s0lstice's post as well. What do you think? Yeah I noticed it. I'd like him to explain himself though (I don't know if he did), since I don't think it's something "scummy" in itself but rather could be more of a misunderstanding. I didn't really pay much attention to it since the rest of his posts make me think he's town (I've already said why I think). "How many scum are there? Four?" "There are PMs this game right guys? PM me!" "is there an SK this game?" ... making me think you're scum here man | ||
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On July 13 2012 23:00 gonzaw wrote: the more flips there are we can determine how many scum there are ......... man seriously. what are you doing. and I know what you were trying to say ("we can reverse engineer wbg's setup randomizer or something and know how many scum there are") but since we don't know the setup randomizer that's also totally pointless. | ||
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On July 13 2012 23:03 marvellosity wrote: As far as I can tell, the kinda "average" setup is something along the lines of 3 mafia, 1 SK, 3 blues. That's what both Emergency and Movie had. wof had 3 mafia, no sk (i think) and 2 blues. let's stop trying to reverse engineer the setup, at least until we have more info. | ||
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On July 14 2012 00:31 gonzaw wrote: Show nested quote + On July 13 2012 23:05 strongandbig wrote: On July 13 2012 23:00 gonzaw wrote: the more flips there are we can determine how many scum there are ......... man seriously. what are you doing. and I know what you were trying to say ("we can reverse engineer wbg's setup randomizer or something and know how many scum there are") but since we don't know the setup randomizer that's also totally pointless. WBG said this setup follows C9++ but the only thing that changed was the chance of the roles and he added a Framer (and changed Medics->JK and IC->Miller). There's no need to shit things up I'll just do it on my own (other people could do it on their own) and if I find something interesting I'll state it (for instance I checked the C9++ wiki and apparently there is a SK only when there is an odd amount of VTs, I guess it may be similar here). It may help in a LYLO massclaim for instance. Also, I think WBG said he was posting his "determiner" once its balanced. WBG: WIll you post the "randomizer" you used to determine the setup? Also apparently no Miller nor Masons claimed, so we don't have any of those Therefore I'll consider any Miller or Mason claim from now on as confirmed scum (well...it doesn't seem likely scum would fake-claim Mason together but whatever). So Cops....check away, any Red check you get will be legit (no Miller claimed and you are guaranteed to be sane). S&B, what do you think of Dropbear and Risen? Dude just stop - WBG will not post the randomizer, he's said, so as to preserve its integrity. There is a 50% chance of there being an SK, it doesn't matter how many VTs there are. PEOPLE, WILL YOU PLEASE STOP TRYING TO GAIN INFORMATION FROM THE MAFIASCUM C9++ SETUP. THIS SETUP IS DIFFERENT AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HAS BEEN CHANGED. WE CANNOT GAIN ANY USEFUL INFORMATION FROM THE MAFIASCUM C9++ SETUP! As for your question I'm at work still so no deep thoughts yet - I'm inclined to give Risen the benefit of the doubt for a few days at least, since he has a good motivation to try to change his town play. Nothing on dropbear right now I'll try and reread his filter later. | ||
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On July 14 2012 01:33 gonzaw wrote: In mind with S&B's recent posting I wouldn't mind his lynch either, I don't like how he sporadically comes into the thread to shit well i wouldnt have to shit on you if you weren't posting like a toilet i'm at work i only can come in sporadically i'd consolidate on austin, maybe keirathi, maybe tali or derpbear, but i'd prefer to think about it a bit more first should be home in a few hours, deadline is midnight euro time so it'll be fine | ||
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