EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JtBkL.jpg)
aka “Fuck Yeah ZvP”
Hello TL.
I am here to present to you, for your comments, criticisms, opinions and considerations, a ZvP style that I have been working on casually. I'd like to preface everything by saying I don't actually know what I'm talking about (hence [D] rather than [G]), but I will also say that I've been having a lot of fun with this and I think there is at least some legitimacy to it. One more thing: I'm calling it Neo-Sauron even though the term is far more general and encompassing – the popular Stephano style is technically more Neo-Sauron than this. But this seems far more insidious. I wanted to go with “Fuck Yeah ZvP” but feared rebuke for such a distasteful thread title. I'm open to suggestions!
Introduction
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The Zerg versus Protoss matchup has become one of the more stagnant matchups as of late: Zergs rush for three bases whilst Protoss takes an expansion themselves, usually off of a forge. Quickly teching to roaches and an infestion pit shortly afterwards have allowed Zergs to play in a comfort zone: if Protoss is being greedy, punish him with never-ending swarms of roaches. If Protoss is playing conservative, tech to Broodlords and avoid the vortex.
And it seems to work. But it's boring. I myself harbour a distaste for roaches: they're not very zergy, and they are poor units without all their upgrades. I have also come to dislike Broodlords – despite their effectiveness, they are slow and often boring to play.
So I've been working on another way of playing ZvP: roachless and spireless. I won't say it's a new style, because others have had similar ideas (notably Coca and Morrow). But I haven't seen anyone do it as I am attempting. I am sure they're out there though. In fact, this style of ZvP was initially inspired not by anything in the StarCraft 2 scene, but rather BroodWar ZvP. In particular, one of my personal favourite BroodWar games: Zero vs Bisu on Neo Aztec. Of course, Zero starts off with a spire in that game but by the end of it, he has a massive, unstoppable ground army.
In brief, this style of ZvP is creating a powerful ground army consisting of highly upgraded lings, infestors, ultras and banelings that can engage the Protoss deathball in a straight up fight. Once the deathball has been destroyed or crippled, the aggression switch gets flipped and Zerg starts flooding the map with never-ending streams of units.
And it seems to work. But it's boring. I myself harbour a distaste for roaches: they're not very zergy, and they are poor units without all their upgrades. I have also come to dislike Broodlords – despite their effectiveness, they are slow and often boring to play.
So I've been working on another way of playing ZvP: roachless and spireless. I won't say it's a new style, because others have had similar ideas (notably Coca and Morrow). But I haven't seen anyone do it as I am attempting. I am sure they're out there though. In fact, this style of ZvP was initially inspired not by anything in the StarCraft 2 scene, but rather BroodWar ZvP. In particular, one of my personal favourite BroodWar games: Zero vs Bisu on Neo Aztec. Of course, Zero starts off with a spire in that game but by the end of it, he has a massive, unstoppable ground army.
In brief, this style of ZvP is creating a powerful ground army consisting of highly upgraded lings, infestors, ultras and banelings that can engage the Protoss deathball in a straight up fight. Once the deathball has been destroyed or crippled, the aggression switch gets flipped and Zerg starts flooding the map with never-ending streams of units.
The Style
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This style is characterized by building up a powerful and mobile ground army that can dictate the game, engage the Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight and trade well enough for Zerg to flood the map with units to take the game.
The end-goal of this style is different from the Broodlord/infestor and mass roach styles. For this style, your ideal position is:
4 – 5 bases (8-10 gas)
+3/+3 upgrades, as well as all the other relevant upgrades
A ton of Hatches
A massive ground army consisting of Zerglings, Banelings, Infestors, Ultralisks and, if necessary, Hydralisks.
From here you try to find a good engagement with the Protoss deathball. You will always be able to force an engagement since you will have the faster army, you just need to force a good one. Lead with the ultralisks, not only to tank damage but also to stomp forcefields. Here, it is critical to keep your infestors alive. If the battle goes awry, you'll need them to delay the deathball as you are remaxing again.
Remaxing is the crux here – before you engage, it is essential that you have not only a good bank but also tons of larvae. The goal with the first engagement is not to win the game, it is to cripple his deathball. Often times, you'll find that you can't completely kill it, but because you have the macro advantage you can remax faster and keep battering the Protoss down with infinite streams of units. This is the Neo Sauron Zerg, a style truly worthy of The Swarm.
Avoid this style if:
+ Show Spoiler +
Try this style if:
+ Show Spoiler +
The end-goal of this style is different from the Broodlord/infestor and mass roach styles. For this style, your ideal position is:
4 – 5 bases (8-10 gas)
+3/+3 upgrades, as well as all the other relevant upgrades
A ton of Hatches
A massive ground army consisting of Zerglings, Banelings, Infestors, Ultralisks and, if necessary, Hydralisks.
From here you try to find a good engagement with the Protoss deathball. You will always be able to force an engagement since you will have the faster army, you just need to force a good one. Lead with the ultralisks, not only to tank damage but also to stomp forcefields. Here, it is critical to keep your infestors alive. If the battle goes awry, you'll need them to delay the deathball as you are remaxing again.
Remaxing is the crux here – before you engage, it is essential that you have not only a good bank but also tons of larvae. The goal with the first engagement is not to win the game, it is to cripple his deathball. Often times, you'll find that you can't completely kill it, but because you have the macro advantage you can remax faster and keep battering the Protoss down with infinite streams of units. This is the Neo Sauron Zerg, a style truly worthy of The Swarm.
Avoid this style if:
+ Show Spoiler +
- you are interested mostly in winning ZvP. It is largely untested, probably has a number of holes and you will probably rack up a ton of losses before getting anywhere.
- you need to be cost efficient. This is Neo Sauron Zerg, fuck efficiency.
- you are in one of the lower leagues. Compared to the Stephano style, this seems far more complex and tougher to execute. I think more so than other styles, this one requires a very solid mechanical foundation to execute at all.
- you are fundamentally opposed to taking four or more bases. You won't have enough gas on three bases.
- you need to be cost efficient. This is Neo Sauron Zerg, fuck efficiency.
- you are in one of the lower leagues. Compared to the Stephano style, this seems far more complex and tougher to execute. I think more so than other styles, this one requires a very solid mechanical foundation to execute at all.
- you are fundamentally opposed to taking four or more bases. You won't have enough gas on three bases.
Try this style if:
+ Show Spoiler +
- you too hate roaches. They're not even real units, just a way of getting maxed without an awesome army. Yuck. Fuck roaches
- you too hate the spire. The Swarm does not cower in the skies, out of range and out of sight.
- you prioritize fun over winning. This style is infinitely more fun and can lead to some crazy games, but you will probably lose a good many games before you start winning.
- you like taking bases. One thing is guaranteed, you will be gas-starved all game, every game. Luckily, you have the mobile army and you can take expansions all over.
- you have mixed feelings on the Archon Toilet. Now, just roll your banelings and ultras into it and watch his army disappear in his own toilet!
- you are a hipster nerd. I counter Colossi with Hydras and Zealots with Drones. I did it before it even became popular. Honestly, I think this style will become even better with HoTS, so jump on the bandwagon now!
- you are a Sauron Zerg. “Whatever, I have infinity units, fuck you!”
- you too hate the spire. The Swarm does not cower in the skies, out of range and out of sight.
- you prioritize fun over winning. This style is infinitely more fun and can lead to some crazy games, but you will probably lose a good many games before you start winning.
- you like taking bases. One thing is guaranteed, you will be gas-starved all game, every game. Luckily, you have the mobile army and you can take expansions all over.
- you have mixed feelings on the Archon Toilet. Now, just roll your banelings and ultras into it and watch his army disappear in his own toilet!
- you are a hipster nerd. I counter Colossi with Hydras and Zealots with Drones. I did it before it even became popular. Honestly, I think this style will become even better with HoTS, so jump on the bandwagon now!
- you are a Sauron Zerg. “Whatever, I have infinity units, fuck you!”
Composition Explanation:
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YfJLN.jpg)
Lings, being the fastest units in the game, give us the mobility we need through the early and midgame to keep Protoss a little pinned back. We are able to threaten backstabs and counter attacks to buy time, and in the late game lings will remain our primary unit for sowing destruction in the Protoss ranks. The other units are all fancier, but the lings are really the crux of the composition.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tDwYE.jpg)
Banelings, by virtue of incredible amounts of damage in a short time-frame, will help us deal with the Protoss deathball in head-on engagements. Banelings will also make the Protoss wary of baneling drops and force him to be more cautious and really babysit his army.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WADUF.jpg)
Infestors are not only our utility units, allowing us to deal with various threats, they also allow us to control the pace of the game. We can slow pushes down with them, or become aggressive with timing attacks. In massive engagements, Fungal Growth locks the Protoss army in place, ensuring no escape from the Banelings and Ultralisks.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L7aJO.jpg)
Ultralisks will be primarily useful in massive, maxed army engagements, absorbing damage and stomping forcefield. Instead of viewing them as a substitute for Broodlords, think of them rather as enablers: without them, we'd have a hard time getting aggressive against a maxed Protoss.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wDHav.jpg)
Hydralisks, our trap card, will be activated in certain scenarios where mass anti-air is vital or where our Hatch- and Lair-tech units don't cut it, such as Immortal-Zealot-Sentry attacks. We gain the opportunity to exploit certain timings or other diversions, such as Hydra drops. They also form a lethal synergy with Ultras in the late game.
Build Breakdown
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Instead of providing a food list, I will instead give a general outline of the build as I am currently playing it. I can do this because I'm actually pretending to do a discussion thread, not a guide thread.
I have toyed around with various openings and have come to the conclusion that the 3 hatch before gas is the best template on which to base this build. It has one significant modification: instead of double-gassing at a later stage, we add in one geyser earlier. This is to get both zergling speed and a baneling nest up in lieu of a Warren. Instead of relying on roaches, a la Stephano, we will rely on lings banelings, spines and Queens. So, in its simplest form, the parts of the build in rough chronology:
Phase 1:
15/18 – Spawning pool
Double Expand
Phase 2:
28/28 – Extractor
Baneling Nest (~ 6:25)
Lair, gradually add on gas as lair is morphing
Double Evo for +1/+1
Phase 3:
Hydra Den (entirely circumstantial)
Infestation Pit
Hive
Ultralisk Cavern
Here are, in rough chronology, a list of the upgrades you'll want to get.
Metabolic Boost.
+1/+1 Upgrades for melee
+2/+2 Upgrades for melee
Pathogen Glands
Centrifugal Hooks
Burrow
+3/+3 Upgrades for melee
Adrenal Glands
Chitinous Plating
Pneumatized Carapace (optional)
Ventral Sacks (optional)
Neural Parasite (optional)
Grooved Spines
I have toyed around with various openings and have come to the conclusion that the 3 hatch before gas is the best template on which to base this build. It has one significant modification: instead of double-gassing at a later stage, we add in one geyser earlier. This is to get both zergling speed and a baneling nest up in lieu of a Warren. Instead of relying on roaches, a la Stephano, we will rely on lings banelings, spines and Queens. So, in its simplest form, the parts of the build in rough chronology:
Phase 1:
15/18 – Spawning pool
Double Expand
Phase 2:
28/28 – Extractor
Baneling Nest (~ 6:25)
Lair, gradually add on gas as lair is morphing
Double Evo for +1/+1
Phase 3:
Hydra Den (entirely circumstantial)
Infestation Pit
Hive
Ultralisk Cavern
Here are, in rough chronology, a list of the upgrades you'll want to get.
Metabolic Boost.
+1/+1 Upgrades for melee
+2/+2 Upgrades for melee
Pathogen Glands
Centrifugal Hooks
Burrow
+3/+3 Upgrades for melee
Adrenal Glands
Chitinous Plating
Pneumatized Carapace (optional)
Ventral Sacks (optional)
Neural Parasite (optional)
Grooved Spines
Benchmarks & Timings:
+ Show Spoiler +
Instead of giving a food list I'll once again simplify things a little. Here are the benchmarks you'll want to hit in given absolutely no aggression or interference from the Protoss:
~ 5:00 Already double expanded, first expansion already up.
~ 6:30 Baneling Nest, followed by speed
~ 7:10 Metabolic Boost
~ 8:00 Lair, 65-70 Food
~ 9:00 First Macro Hatch
~ 9:30 Start +1/+1, Infestation Pit
~ 10:00 Second Macro Hatch, 105-110 Food
~ 10:20 Pathogen Glands
~ 11:00 Fourth Base, Hive, Centrifugal Hooks
~ 12:15 +2/+2
~ 12:45 Ultralisk Cavern, Adrenal Glands
~ 13:50 Chitinous Plating, Max out with Ultras 200/200 Food soon after.
~ 15:40 Start +3/+3
> 16:00 Take as many additional bases as is reasonable. You'll need them.
Again, these are super ideal timings and benchmarks are unrealistic in almost all echelons of play. I merely post this as a benchmark against which to measure your execution. That said, myself being a Platinum-level player, I'm usually able to max out at 16:00, usually just waiting on the ultralisk cavern.
~ 5:00 Already double expanded, first expansion already up.
~ 6:30 Baneling Nest, followed by speed
~ 7:10 Metabolic Boost
~ 8:00 Lair, 65-70 Food
~ 9:00 First Macro Hatch
~ 9:30 Start +1/+1, Infestation Pit
~ 10:00 Second Macro Hatch, 105-110 Food
~ 10:20 Pathogen Glands
~ 11:00 Fourth Base, Hive, Centrifugal Hooks
~ 12:15 +2/+2
~ 12:45 Ultralisk Cavern, Adrenal Glands
~ 13:50 Chitinous Plating, Max out with Ultras 200/200 Food soon after.
~ 15:40 Start +3/+3
> 16:00 Take as many additional bases as is reasonable. You'll need them.
Again, these are super ideal timings and benchmarks are unrealistic in almost all echelons of play. I merely post this as a benchmark against which to measure your execution. That said, myself being a Platinum-level player, I'm usually able to max out at 16:00, usually just waiting on the ultralisk cavern.
Diversions:
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The reason the Stephano style is such a pain for the Protoss is not purely the huge roach army. It's the fact that Zerg can either go apeshit with roaches or just tech up to Broodlords. This makes it tough for Protoss because they don't know when the Zerg will get aggressive.
Similarly, this build offers ways to rearrange the parts in order to become aggressive at different times in the game:
~ 7:00 Baneling bust. This build does set itself up for a baneling bust, but I think it comes late and I wouldn't recommend it.
~ 11:00 If you start Overlord Drop tech as the lair finished, you can do a banerain strategy.
~ 12:30 Ling/Bling/Infestor +1/+1 timing attack. Haven't tried this yet, seems good vs Stargate + Quick third.
~ 14:00 Ultralisk timing
~ 16:00 +2/+2 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
~ 18:00 +3/+3 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
There is also a hydralisk diversion, which is a little tricky but can work out well. Should you scout a 7-gate +2 Blink All-in, Double Stargate, Immortal timings or anything similar, peppering in a handful of hydralisks will not only put you in a strong defensive position, you also open up a rare lategame composition: Ling/Ultra/Hydra. It uses the same logic as roach/hydra, with Ultras absorbing damage and hydralisks firing from behind. The also have a good synergy on creep since the movement speeds are much closer. Just something worth considering.
Similarly, this build offers ways to rearrange the parts in order to become aggressive at different times in the game:
~ 7:00 Baneling bust. This build does set itself up for a baneling bust, but I think it comes late and I wouldn't recommend it.
~ 11:00 If you start Overlord Drop tech as the lair finished, you can do a banerain strategy.
~ 12:30 Ling/Bling/Infestor +1/+1 timing attack. Haven't tried this yet, seems good vs Stargate + Quick third.
~ 14:00 Ultralisk timing
~ 16:00 +2/+2 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
~ 18:00 +3/+3 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
There is also a hydralisk diversion, which is a little tricky but can work out well. Should you scout a 7-gate +2 Blink All-in, Double Stargate, Immortal timings or anything similar, peppering in a handful of hydralisks will not only put you in a strong defensive position, you also open up a rare lategame composition: Ling/Ultra/Hydra. It uses the same logic as roach/hydra, with Ultras absorbing damage and hydralisks firing from behind. The also have a good synergy on creep since the movement speeds are much closer. Just something worth considering.
Replays
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I don't find the time to play very often, and certainly not against ultra-high level opponents, but then this section will not be confined to my own replays. Anyone may submit replays to me of them playing this style and, should I deem them worthy, I will gladly add them to this section. However, currently I only have replays of my own. I ask that you excuse the mistakes, blunders and low-level play in general. As I have said before, I'm not a very good player.
In chronological order (the last three being the best examples, and the prior ones being early highly unrefined versions. I lose two games I should not have lost, but so we learn!
http://drop.sc/163244
http://drop.sc/163243
http://drop.sc/163241
http://drop.sc/171972
http://drop.sc/171974
http://drop.sc/171973
Apologies for the lack of good replays, I will try to play some more games and update this thread accordingly!
In chronological order (the last three being the best examples, and the prior ones being early highly unrefined versions. I lose two games I should not have lost, but so we learn!
http://drop.sc/163244
http://drop.sc/163243
http://drop.sc/163241
http://drop.sc/171972
http://drop.sc/171974
http://drop.sc/171973
Apologies for the lack of good replays, I will try to play some more games and update this thread accordingly!
Conclusion
I hope that my discussion here has sparked some more interest in this style, or at least entertained you. I realize that I am a far less accomplished player than most forum-goers on here, and would gladly stand corrected on any erroneous/misleading information. I hope to be able to update this thread, from time to time, with additional replays and information. In the meantime, good luck and, more importantly, have fun.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ivOkk.jpg)
