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On May 05 2012 23:28 Belial88 wrote:
Why not just go the standard fast third (which you really need roaches for to defend early to early-midgame pressure), and make a build from there?
This is the right thing to do, i think.
Some month ago, i was mid master (now i'm a just a low master  ), and i was using 2 bases lair then go to speedling + infestor in every ZvP (with a infested terran agression). Then speedling baneling infestor and then ultralisk (and broodlord later).
That's was pretty cool and fun. And my win rate in ZvP was good.
But 2 bases lair is too "all-in". On the ladder it's ok because every all-in can works on the ladder. But you win because protoss players don't scout, not because you are good. It's a bad thing (for me).
Last week, i watched Idra stream. He was player pure speedling/baneling for all the early and the mid game in ZvP. With baneling drop to kill colossi and sentries. That's was awesome. But even Idra can't hold a gateway all-in without a roach warren.
I think you can go on 3 bases, take 2 gases at 6:00, get the +1/+1 and stay on 3 gases to hold a gateway all-in (roach + many speedling). After that, you can go speedling baneling infestor (with baneling drop) to be safe until ultralisk and/or broodlords.
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On May 05 2012 08:00 SeinGalton wrote:
~ 15:40 Start +3/+3
~ 16:00 +3/+3 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
Probably want to adjust that 
Looks like something I might try if I get back into zerg!
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Nice post!
i've been trying this style for a while as 3 base roach every pvz is kinda boring, this is fun!. What i feel is that you have to keep on the timings to have the proper composition in case the protoss goes 2 base turtle allin. (ultras are required)
As OP said you really need to keep on top your scouting as there are a lot of timing pushes that can easily kill you. I would recommend building a roach warren to be safe but not producing roaches unless required, with a good amount of speedlings you can delay the toss push by run-by or forcing forcefields.In theory with banes you should be able to stop the toss as well but I think is risky and then you will have the hydra den to stop gateway or gateway/immortal pushes
I think the drop tech is a must as u need to have something to counter forcefields and also keeping the toss in base , but remember, once u kill the probes, the toss is going to go for the kill, so if you plan a banedrop you better have bank and larvae available (its very sad losing after killing all toss economy )
I would say the counter to this is fast High templar or builds such the "zealot dance party" (9 or 10 gates only zealot) and you should fear archons as well. Thats why you need the roach warren,
and here my questions:
why lair before +1 +1?,
I think this post is helpfull http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.phptopic_id=336304
Has anyone tested this in zvz?
I haven't tryied it too much but I've been successfull with ultra hydra composition, of course in maps whit a lot of rush distance so mass zerling early and mid game is viable.
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What is important about this style is you HAVE to catch the P army as he moves out. You CANNOT engage even near your expansions because you need to force a lot of forcefields before he reaches your base so your lings and banes can get to work. Notice it's virtually impossible to forcefield out banelings (contraty to lings), because they are either before the FFs, where you can retreat, or behind the FFs where they are bound to deal their damage anyway.
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How many hatcheries do you build ? One macro hatch / base ?
I'm asking this question especially early game...
But this looks like fucking fun. I'll try this against friends before trying this on the ladder btw :p
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I just somewhat feel your going so far out of your way to play non standard as to not really make much sense, I think a much more logical way to reach this lategame setup is going for your standard 3 base roach > muta. Then adding in banelings similar to how leenock adds them in and then add infestors and ultras for your lategame transition.
Also from previous games where similar compositions were reached, again mostly leenocks games to work with here, but protoss can get a composition of immortals archons etc which are so cost efficient vs things like this when they get on 4+ bases, the way I think it should be played is to constantly crash into the protoss keeping them on 3 bases until they basically mine out, first with the roaches, then mutas, then your ultra infestor comp. You can always add broodlords in eventually and transition to your standard lategame if you can find the money for it.
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This looks a lot like like Morrow's ZvP from last summer while allowing for an quick third base and better economy.
If the protoss is going to do a blind counter to roaches then they're going to die a horrible death. At the same time, if the toss has no clue how to respond then you're probably going to win. If the toss has more than 4 sentries and 2+ colossus then this style has a REALLY hard time. I still had a strong ZvP record until mutas became more popular. Suddenly canons by every base and early blink dealt with drop harass rather easily. I stopped using the style because I was losing almost every ZvP to mass colossus/blink stalker/sentry.
But hey, with good macro you can overcome a lot in lower leagues. As long as you inject well this seems like a fun build to pull out in a tournament or against friends. The layout of the "guide" was nice and it's fun to mess around with nonstandard play as a break from serious gaming.
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speedling / baneling / infestor can counter a sentries + colossus, but you need drop upgrades. So it's really hard to counter a "fast colossus".
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This reminds me of the style I did as zerg when I played zvp and zvt before the infestor nerfs. I went 2 base ling infestor and maxed on ultra/baneling/infestor. It rolled the void ray colossus build that was popular at the time.
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What do you do against a really fast FFE into 3gas, 6~7 gates, does Ling/Baneling only cut it? I think I might get a lot of wins with this style if I can defend against those very early 2 base all-ins...
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Im sorry to say but at the "core" this is a pure style, its been played most notably by DRG about half an year ago and its simply bad, no roach can make you much more vulnerable to some timings and your late game army is quite frankly worse than broodlord infestor by about 10 times, and even if its pretty mobile its still limited at 2.5 speed and can't siege.
It might be better against tosses hard countering roach play and that can be so even only cuz its much harder to split + ff against ling than it is to ff and a move vs roaches.
So i guess... yeah, it might be funnier to play for some people, have fun playing it i guess.
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i really like this style and try to play it since about a year, but here are my problems:
early game:
- attack upgraded zealots
- good forcefields
mid game:
- any attack with forcefields before my ultras pop (which is like most 2 base allins)
- air play (hydras are pretty bad even against air, and when he commits to air + colossi im kinda screwed without mass corruptors or mass infestor)
late game:
- storm shreds all lings + blings, leaving 4-10 ultras which die ridiculously fast to a couple upgraded immortals (+archons)
maybe you can give me some hints how to handle those crucial weaknesses of my play =)
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On May 12 2012 02:05 Cirqueenflex wrote:
i really like this style and try to play it since about a year, but here are my problems:
early game:
- attack upgraded zealots
- good forcefields
mid game:
- any attack with forcefields before my ultras pop (which is like most 2 base allins)
- air play (hydras are pretty bad even against air, and when he commits to air + colossi im kinda screwed without mass corruptors or mass infestor)
late game:
- storm shreds all lings + blings, leaving 4-10 ultras which die ridiculously fast to a couple upgraded immortals (+archons)
maybe you can give me some hints how to handle those crucial weaknesses of my play =)
You're fucking Sauron Zerg, fuck handling weaknesses, just swarm ALL THE THINGS
I have encountered some of the same problems, like 7 gate with upgraded zealots, air play, and any agression before the 10 min mark. Most of it is just me not macroing good enough I think, and I have only played this for 10 games or so, so I am lacking severely in experience, but these are the problems I've encountered so far.
Despite that, it is an EXTREMELY fun way to play, bar the silly losses against 2 warp ins of +1 zealots
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Master zerg here, putting my 2 cents:
Nice guide, Super fun style if you hate roaches (I even avoid them in zvz).
Notes on your build and upgrades: I would go for drops instead of insta hive, if you need to buy time just do some runbys to the third or to his main. Reason for getting drops: bane rain of course, and when not being attacked, the first bane rain with +2attack can just tear the toss economy appart with just 8 banes.
Extras that OP did not add: This build is not an "A+Click" build, it requires a lot of micro so your lings don´t just die to forcefields or your festor don´t get caught up in the middle of fungaling.
Difference with Stephano style: If you mess up your injects, you are dead, macro hatcheries are needed even more heavily, don´t waste so much larva o lings, if you have extra minerals, just put spines and redrone. This style is not a good deffensive style, you need to catch the protoss army BEFORE they reach a choke, even with ultras breaking ffs, things get pretty ugly in a choke point. 3/3 Crackling runbys are a must, just sent 30/40 to target a nexus, that is cost effective as hell. Don´t forget that +2 banes 1 shot probes, drops and burrow play is important if you want to make this work at high level-
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Hello guys.
I'll try to answer some questions as best I can! Sorry if I don't respond to everyone, there's a lot of things I'd like to touch on.
-Kira: Corrupters would make a good addition yes, especially vs Colossi and Voidrays. I'm trying to keep the style as lean as possible right now though (in favour of an earlier ideal army) but would absolutely recommend throwing down double spire in the very late game (> 23:00). The tech transition can (I feel) really throw Protoss off and allows for a powerful, aggressive and unpredictable Zerg lategame. Thanks for your input and keep promoting it!
Mahtasooma: I'm glad you're also having fun with this kind of play. I suffer the same lack of restraint and urge to blow up banelings. Fortunately, once you kill the Deathball outright, you have oftentimes already won. I think baneling control is something that will be critical for this style at higher levels.
Magus.421: You're right, this does not work on 2base Lair, economically you are too far behind. It has to be 3 bases to facilitate gas requirements and production. I think it needs 4 base before it can get aggressive. I also saw IdrA having a tough time with it, but it did look promising. I'm beginning to think it has legitimate potential. On the roaches: it makes a lot of sense, but I'm not yet convinced that un-upgraded roaches are better than upgraded banelings and tons of queens and spines. If you oversimplify the economy drastically: 20 Roaches (75/25 * 20 = 1500/ 500) = 20 Banelings + 3 Queens + 3 Spines + 2 Drones. What do you think? Still, a backup Roach Warren is probably a good idea, I fully agree.
Kasu: Well noted sir, a mistake that has been remedied. New timings are up, hope these make more sense.
Nakranoth: Yeah I don't have any clear answers as of yet to Zealot Dance Parties, Quick HT or Zealot Archon. I'll have to investigate exactly the timings and whether this style has reasonable responses. Banerain seems legitimate to the latter two. I will say early spines are crucial for the former, and the new Queens. As for the lair timing: I'm not sold on it yet, but it allows for earlier banerain and earlier hydralisk in case of scouting a worrisome timing/all-in. You add on extra gas as the lair morphs so your +1/+1 shouldn't arrive terribly late. Still not sure though. Thanks for linking that thread, it does tie in fairly well with this. I haven't tried it in ZvZ (and I think you'll definitely need a backup RW there) but it doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. Also, please feel free to send me your replays!
Mahtasooma: Absolutely, excellent point: it is actually critical to engage him as close to his base possible, you're relying on a focused, rallied, and offensive re-max to kill him, and you don't want to be defending with it. I'll be sure to add this to the OP, thanks for pointing it out. Excellent point on the banelings too.
Insoleet: Yes, I think one macro Hatch per base is a minimum, perhaps even 3MH/2base if your injects suck like mine do. I add my first MH not too long after my 3rd, usually 8:00 - 9:00 min mark. Awesome to hear, I hope you have fun and are able to win in style!
lksf: I partly disagree, sir. I think doing the roach and muta switches, whilst not unreasonable, is not the goal of this play. The crux for me here is getting to that ideal army as soon as possible and add in only the necessary tech. I think of it as a late-game timing attack. Also, the roaches and the muta they are at best peripheral to the style, and I'd rather keep this as lean as possible. But Mutas in particular are certainly not discouraged and seem to me a very reasonable avenue to investigate as a stepping stone.
Servius_Fulvius: Thank you sir. Yeah I'm not sold on aggressive dropping, it seems too easy to deal with and delays your tech a little. That whole period where bainrain would ordinarily kick in feels a little awkward to me still, whether I'm being aggressive or defensive. I think the drops will only work if Protoss is spread really thin and has made bad tech choices. In these cases I think it is better to feign aggression and tech to Ultras as quickly as possible behind it.
Magus.421: I think I'll add a "Beware of:" section and a 2-base colossus timing would certainly be atop that list. Absolutely right.
Alpino: The 2-base all-ins scare me a little, but with the new patch I'd recommend lots of spines and queens, tons of lings and as few banelings as possible, proportional to his Zealot and Sentry count. Also, try to get good positioning. If you can take out the pylon in the middle of the attack you should be able to beat the all-in without breaking a sweat. I hope you try it and I hope you like it!
Aterons_toss: I'm sorry that you think it is simply bad. Even if the composition is 10x worse than BL Infestor (and it isn't) the remax at least redeems that - which is what you're actually winning with. The composition is just to cripple the Deathball, and I can't think of a better composition to do so. This ensures maximum damage in minimum time. Also, this is more fun. And I play for fun. And this is Neo Sauron Zerg. And Fuck Yeah! :D
Cirqueenflex: Those are legitimate concerns! With the Zealots - I'm convinced that Queens, spines and a few blings are the only way to deal with this, and I think it's so potent that you have to "expect" it every game. For forcefields: bait as many as you can before retreating to you spines and setting up flanks. Air play: the normal way - lots of queens and spines, and run your zerglings to his front, maybe a runby or a bust is viable! Storm: if you see him teching to HT, immediately get drops, the overlords will get your lings and blings amongst the protoss and absorb storm pretty well. I hope that helps a little, I'm probably not the best person to ask!
Aocowns: Fuck yeah! That is exactly the mindset this style needs. I don't believe this style cannot solve some of those problems, I think it just needs figuring out. Please send me your replays, wins or losses, I'd absolutely love to examine them. I'm glad you are having fun playing this way. It's how real men play ZvP.
FuriousEgg: Beautiful, thank you. I'm going to put everything you said there into the OP, I just need to restructure it a bit. This is precisely the type of post I was hoping to see, a good player giving advice and helping to flesh it out. Thank you sir!
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I would really appreciate any replays, regardless of league or ranking. I aim to flesh out the guide more but I don't have time to play so many games. So I need your games to help me turn this discussion into a guide proper! And I hope everyone trying this out is having a ton of fun - it might be the only thing going for this>
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Feels like Zerg is able to play everything vs Toss and still win.
Greetings.
User was warned for this post
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On May 12 2012 01:43 Aterons_toss wrote:
Im sorry to say but at the "core" this is a pure style, its been played most notably by DRG about half an year ago and its simply bad, no roach can make you much more vulnerable to some timings and your late game army is quite frankly worse than broodlord infestor by about 10 times, and even if its pretty mobile its still limited at 2.5 speed and can't siege.
It might be better against tosses hard countering roach play and that can be so even only cuz its much harder to split + ff against ling than it is to ff and a move vs roaches.
So i guess... yeah, it might be funnier to play for some people, have fun playing it i guess.
I don't think you're looking at the bigger picture with this.
In a BO-X series using this in the first game would be a mind fuck, I've seen it plenty of times, I have 3 styles ZvP and utilise all of them when in tournament play and on ladder it could work one day and not the other but I've seen a lot of Ps not be able to handle this, they panic half the time and start throwing random compositions at you. It's a fun style that I think people need to try and perfect.
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Just my two cents:
It would seem to me as if there are 2 large concerns with this style: First, it's ability to hold/counter midgame aggression or all ins from toss, and secondly, whether or not a 2 base/3 base lair would be economically competitive against an FFE/fast third.
My suggestion to counter act this would be to adopt a more hydra/ling centric style of defense, while getting a lair up, and into the necessary tech that zerg would need.
Day[9] did a daily on this a while back:
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-412-p1-zvp-roach-free-zeniownage-5927675
Now, while in the Daily, Zenio goes for mutalisks, his defense of the early/midgame aggression remains the same:
1. An early gas -> ling speed is used to deny any proxies/probes from making their way across the map. (Potential chance for baneling bust here?)
These drones stay in gas to set up an early lair. (Another queen can be used for fast creep, this prevents proxies from the immediate area and helps the hydra defense/vision)
2. Once lair is done, an hydralisk den immediately goes down (and hydra range, thereafter). From here, Zenio begins to deviate into a mutalisking style of play, but him getting the lair out to prevent aggression is something easily applicable to this style as well.
3. Once this large, midgame aggression begins to move out across the map (already some-what delayed, because our fast zerglings held towers and stopped proxies), the idea is to get a substantial number of hydras out to hold the attack. This hydra-ling composition becomes sufficient to hold aggression because the hydra range is able to stay on equal range of stalkers/immortals. Forcefields not only lose effectiveness because the hydra is able to stay on par in range, but also because ling/hydras are much harder to box out the larger roach. This is not a mass hydra defense, or a mass ling defense, but together, you can hold off aggression (I personally play the Zenio style as seen in the Daily on ladder, this hydra/ling composition as worked out great for me). Zealot dance parties/fast archons/fast ht are nullified because the hydras rip so easily through them. Even if the protoss were to go for storm, that would only buy time for a more critical mass of these hydras, or for the infestors/lair/hive tech to come into effect.
To address the economic issues, I would say that because this build is so gas starved, and hydra/ling can defend well, it wouldn't be out of the zerg depth to be able to double expand, or at least stay ahead in expansions, to acquire the gas for T3 tech.
I personally agree with the idea that an ultralisk/infestor/baneling composition would do well to cripple a deathball, then easily remax on lings, and if needed, hydras.
Good post by the OP, and this looks like an interesting part of ZvP that I'd definitely be willing to try out.
If any greater zerg would like to disagree with me on the ling/hydra style of defense, please do, I play the style 100% of the time in my ZvPs, and interested on what you guys think/how that applies to this style.
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Andromedan: I tried that style for a long time. I think it has potential, and I still like it (you'll see I made such a provision in the OP under "Diversions") but right now I'm wondering if a Mass Queen defense is not the way to go. Quite beefy, zero gas multipurpose units. They benefit more from good mechanics and put them alongside lings, banes and spines and it sounds like a solid midgame defense to me. The only problem that I had with the hydra build was that it felt like a massive bump in my play everytime and very very conditional. I could have solved with more practice but right now I'm liking the elegance of something like the Queen defense. You can also get earlier +/1+1 and delay lair tech.
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I feel as if the hydras can provide a better dps and a better range when holding off the attacks. The queen, while gasless, still only has a 5 range, is slower, and is more easily boxed by forcefields. Not to mention, hydras are a big unit you can incorporate later on, if a roach/hydra, or a remax on it were necessary. I still think hydras can serve a large purpose in the defense, but at the very least i think the tech should be considered.
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EPT
