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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JtBkL.jpg)
aka “Fuck Yeah ZvP”
Hello TL.
I am here to present to you, for your comments, criticisms, opinions and considerations, a ZvP style that I have been working on casually. I'd like to preface everything by saying I don't actually know what I'm talking about (hence [D] rather than [G]), but I will also say that I've been having a lot of fun with this and I think there is at least some legitimacy to it. One more thing: I'm calling it Neo-Sauron even though the term is far more general and encompassing – the popular Stephano style is technically more Neo-Sauron than this. But this seems far more insidious. I wanted to go with “Fuck Yeah ZvP” but feared rebuke for such a distasteful thread title. I'm open to suggestions!
Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +The Zerg versus Protoss matchup has become one of the more stagnant matchups as of late: Zergs rush for three bases whilst Protoss takes an expansion themselves, usually off of a forge. Quickly teching to roaches and an infestion pit shortly afterwards have allowed Zergs to play in a comfort zone: if Protoss is being greedy, punish him with never-ending swarms of roaches. If Protoss is playing conservative, tech to Broodlords and avoid the vortex.
And it seems to work. But it's boring. I myself harbour a distaste for roaches: they're not very zergy, and they are poor units without all their upgrades. I have also come to dislike Broodlords – despite their effectiveness, they are slow and often boring to play.
So I've been working on another way of playing ZvP: roachless and spireless. I won't say it's a new style, because others have had similar ideas (notably Coca and Morrow). But I haven't seen anyone do it as I am attempting. I am sure they're out there though. In fact, this style of ZvP was initially inspired not by anything in the StarCraft 2 scene, but rather BroodWar ZvP. In particular, one of my personal favourite BroodWar games: Zero vs Bisu on Neo Aztec. Of course, Zero starts off with a spire in that game but by the end of it, he has a massive, unstoppable ground army.
In brief, this style of ZvP is creating a powerful ground army consisting of highly upgraded lings, infestors, ultras and banelings that can engage the Protoss deathball in a straight up fight. Once the deathball has been destroyed or crippled, the aggression switch gets flipped and Zerg starts flooding the map with never-ending streams of units.
The Style
+ Show Spoiler +This style is characterized by building up a powerful and mobile ground army that can dictate the game, engage the Protoss deathball in a straight-up fight and trade well enough for Zerg to flood the map with units to take the game. The end-goal of this style is different from the Broodlord/infestor and mass roach styles. For this style, your ideal position is: 4 – 5 bases (8-10 gas) +3/+3 upgrades, as well as all the other relevant upgrades A ton of Hatches A massive ground army consisting of Zerglings, Banelings, Infestors, Ultralisks and, if necessary, Hydralisks. From here you try to find a good engagement with the Protoss deathball. You will always be able to force an engagement since you will have the faster army, you just need to force a good one. Lead with the ultralisks, not only to tank damage but also to stomp forcefields. Here, it is critical to keep your infestors alive. If the battle goes awry, you'll need them to delay the deathball as you are remaxing again. Remaxing is the crux here – before you engage, it is essential that you have not only a good bank but also tons of larvae. The goal with the first engagement is not to win the game, it is to cripple his deathball. Often times, you'll find that you can't completely kill it, but because you have the macro advantage you can remax faster and keep battering the Protoss down with infinite streams of units. This is the Neo Sauron Zerg, a style truly worthy of The Swarm. Avoid this style if: + Show Spoiler + - you are interested mostly in winning ZvP. It is largely untested, probably has a number of holes and you will probably rack up a ton of losses before getting anywhere.
- you need to be cost efficient. This is Neo Sauron Zerg, fuck efficiency.
- you are in one of the lower leagues. Compared to the Stephano style, this seems far more complex and tougher to execute. I think more so than other styles, this one requires a very solid mechanical foundation to execute at all.
- you are fundamentally opposed to taking four or more bases. You won't have enough gas on three bases. Try this style if: + Show Spoiler + - you too hate roaches. They're not even real units, just a way of getting maxed without an awesome army. Yuck. Fuck roaches
- you too hate the spire. The Swarm does not cower in the skies, out of range and out of sight.
- you prioritize fun over winning. This style is infinitely more fun and can lead to some crazy games, but you will probably lose a good many games before you start winning.
- you like taking bases. One thing is guaranteed, you will be gas-starved all game, every game. Luckily, you have the mobile army and you can take expansions all over.
- you have mixed feelings on the Archon Toilet. Now, just roll your banelings and ultras into it and watch his army disappear in his own toilet!
- you are a hipster nerd. I counter Colossi with Hydras and Zealots with Drones. I did it before it even became popular. Honestly, I think this style will become even better with HoTS, so jump on the bandwagon now!
- you are a Sauron Zerg. “Whatever, I have infinity units, fuck you!”
Composition Explanation:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YfJLN.jpg) Lings, being the fastest units in the game, give us the mobility we need through the early and midgame to keep Protoss a little pinned back. We are able to threaten backstabs and counter attacks to buy time, and in the late game lings will remain our primary unit for sowing destruction in the Protoss ranks. The other units are all fancier, but the lings are really the crux of the composition. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tDwYE.jpg) Banelings, by virtue of incredible amounts of damage in a short time-frame, will help us deal with the Protoss deathball in head-on engagements. Banelings will also make the Protoss wary of baneling drops and force him to be more cautious and really babysit his army. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WADUF.jpg) Infestors are not only our utility units, allowing us to deal with various threats, they also allow us to control the pace of the game. We can slow pushes down with them, or become aggressive with timing attacks. In massive engagements, Fungal Growth locks the Protoss army in place, ensuring no escape from the Banelings and Ultralisks. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/L7aJO.jpg) Ultralisks will be primarily useful in massive, maxed army engagements, absorbing damage and stomping forcefield. Instead of viewing them as a substitute for Broodlords, think of them rather as enablers: without them, we'd have a hard time getting aggressive against a maxed Protoss. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wDHav.jpg) Hydralisks, our trap card, will be activated in certain scenarios where mass anti-air is vital or where our Hatch- and Lair-tech units don't cut it, such as Immortal-Zealot-Sentry attacks. We gain the opportunity to exploit certain timings or other diversions, such as Hydra drops. They also form a lethal synergy with Ultras in the late game.
Build Breakdown
+ Show Spoiler +Instead of providing a food list, I will instead give a general outline of the build as I am currently playing it. I can do this because I'm actually pretending to do a discussion thread, not a guide thread.
I have toyed around with various openings and have come to the conclusion that the 3 hatch before gas is the best template on which to base this build. It has one significant modification: instead of double-gassing at a later stage, we add in one geyser earlier. This is to get both zergling speed and a baneling nest up in lieu of a Warren. Instead of relying on roaches, a la Stephano, we will rely on lings banelings, spines and Queens. So, in its simplest form, the parts of the build in rough chronology:
Phase 1:
15/18 – Spawning pool
Double Expand
Phase 2:
28/28 – Extractor
Baneling Nest (~ 6:25)
Lair, gradually add on gas as lair is morphing
Double Evo for +1/+1
Phase 3:
Hydra Den (entirely circumstantial)
Infestation Pit
Hive
Ultralisk Cavern
Here are, in rough chronology, a list of the upgrades you'll want to get.
Metabolic Boost.
+1/+1 Upgrades for melee
+2/+2 Upgrades for melee
Pathogen Glands
Centrifugal Hooks
Burrow
+3/+3 Upgrades for melee
Adrenal Glands
Chitinous Plating
Pneumatized Carapace (optional)
Ventral Sacks (optional)
Neural Parasite (optional)
Grooved Spines
Benchmarks & Timings:
+ Show Spoiler +Instead of giving a food list I'll once again simplify things a little. Here are the benchmarks you'll want to hit in given absolutely no aggression or interference from the Protoss:
~ 5:00 Already double expanded, first expansion already up.
~ 6:30 Baneling Nest, followed by speed
~ 7:10 Metabolic Boost
~ 8:00 Lair, 65-70 Food
~ 9:00 First Macro Hatch
~ 9:30 Start +1/+1, Infestation Pit
~ 10:00 Second Macro Hatch, 105-110 Food
~ 10:20 Pathogen Glands
~ 11:00 Fourth Base, Hive, Centrifugal Hooks
~ 12:15 +2/+2
~ 12:45 Ultralisk Cavern, Adrenal Glands
~ 13:50 Chitinous Plating, Max out with Ultras 200/200 Food soon after.
~ 15:40 Start +3/+3
> 16:00 Take as many additional bases as is reasonable. You'll need them.
Again, these are super ideal timings and benchmarks are unrealistic in almost all echelons of play. I merely post this as a benchmark against which to measure your execution. That said, myself being a Platinum-level player, I'm usually able to max out at 16:00, usually just waiting on the ultralisk cavern.
Diversions:
+ Show Spoiler +The reason the Stephano style is such a pain for the Protoss is not purely the huge roach army. It's the fact that Zerg can either go apeshit with roaches or just tech up to Broodlords. This makes it tough for Protoss because they don't know when the Zerg will get aggressive.
Similarly, this build offers ways to rearrange the parts in order to become aggressive at different times in the game:
~ 7:00 Baneling bust. This build does set itself up for a baneling bust, but I think it comes late and I wouldn't recommend it.
~ 11:00 If you start Overlord Drop tech as the lair finished, you can do a banerain strategy.
~ 12:30 Ling/Bling/Infestor +1/+1 timing attack. Haven't tried this yet, seems good vs Stargate + Quick third.
~ 14:00 Ultralisk timing
~ 16:00 +2/+2 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
~ 18:00 +3/+3 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
There is also a hydralisk diversion, which is a little tricky but can work out well. Should you scout a 7-gate +2 Blink All-in, Double Stargate, Immortal timings or anything similar, peppering in a handful of hydralisks will not only put you in a strong defensive position, you also open up a rare lategame composition: Ling/Ultra/Hydra. It uses the same logic as roach/hydra, with Ultras absorbing damage and hydralisks firing from behind. The also have a good synergy on creep since the movement speeds are much closer. Just something worth considering.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +I don't find the time to play very often, and certainly not against ultra-high level opponents, but then this section will not be confined to my own replays. Anyone may submit replays to me of them playing this style and, should I deem them worthy, I will gladly add them to this section. However, currently I only have replays of my own. I ask that you excuse the mistakes, blunders and low-level play in general. As I have said before, I'm not a very good player. In chronological order (the last three being the best examples, and the prior ones being early highly unrefined versions. I lose two games I should not have lost, but so we learn! http://drop.sc/163244http://drop.sc/163243http://drop.sc/163241http://drop.sc/171972http://drop.sc/171974http://drop.sc/171973Apologies for the lack of good replays, I will try to play some more games and update this thread accordingly!
Conclusion
I hope that my discussion here has sparked some more interest in this style, or at least entertained you. I realize that I am a far less accomplished player than most forum-goers on here, and would gladly stand corrected on any erroneous/misleading information. I hope to be able to update this thread, from time to time, with additional replays and information. In the meantime, good luck and, more importantly, have fun.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ivOkk.jpg)
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On May 05 2012 08:00 SeinGalton wrote:aka as “Fuck Yeah ZvP”
I think the "as" is redundant and can be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence.
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I don't think I'm qualified to discuss the details of this style, but it looks like a very fun way to approach zvp and I am looking forward to the discussion in this thread. Also your write up is very well done and entertaining, thanks for putting so much time into this!
Edit: As a toss player I can sympathize with your hate for roaches : p
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Weirdly this is something I like to do in BO3s to throw people off, a lot of Protoss players don't expect it, although the route I take is mass upgraded ling/bling with Festors into Broods, I use ultra on certain maps.
But I like the idea behind it, obviously mass Cols with Storms can destroy this pretty quickly but I find the way to stop that is to deny the third for too long and force them to two base all in it the timings you have though seem pretty solid, but you've gotta remember to expand like a mad man, lack of Larvae cost you so much when trading if it goes late game -_-
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u die to any reasonable 6-8 gate attack, to any immortal/sentry push, you are vulnearble to warpprisms.
still a cool style, but your build isnt rly safe^^
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On May 05 2012 08:37 KalWarkov wrote:
u die to any reasonable 6-8 gate attack, to any immortal/sentry push, you are vulnearble to warpprisms.
still a cool style, but your build isnt rly safe^^
You'd be surprised at how effective ling/bling with spines is at holding those, and warpprims aren't a problem when you've got creep spread + fast lings, that's the whole point behind this style, you keep map control and if you're quick enough harrasments don't do a thing
This style involves heavy scouting as well, because you obviously need to be more prepared than if you went stephano roach
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Mass colossus with storms DIES so hard to this, because they won't actually have an army if they tech up to that so quickly on 2 base. And ultras basically walk through storm with no damage. Banes are a bit weak but I'm sure there are ways to avoid that. Maybe with burrow or baneling drops?
Basically this style is awesome to play and way more fun to watch. I hope more people start doing it :D
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On May 05 2012 08:37 KalWarkov wrote:
u die to any reasonable 6-8 gate attack, to any immortal/sentry push, you are vulnearble to warpprisms.
still a cool style, but your build isnt rly safe^^
If you go the banerain route you can do a very good job vs sentry/immortal pushes because they have little to no AA and the FFs are negated.
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Very cool. Will follow this with interest. Hope to see this get refined nicely. 
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In a firm believer in roaches in every match-up, this style definitely looks interesting and worth while to try. Gave me a whole new perspective for ZvP. Great guide all together.
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It's an interesting idea, but it assumes the Protoss, y'know, doesn't really do anything the first 16 minutes of the game.
Basically, you play uber greedy third and then try to do a infestor ling or double ling composition. Those comps are usually done off of two bases, because you're stretched too thin for three. It ends with you being too gas starved b/c all you can do is morph banelings to defend, and/or losing your third. Meanwhile, Protoss takes his third b/c you can't attack it, and gets the AoE that counters ling compositions so well.
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Thanks for the comments everyone, I'm very happy to have such a positive response to this topic! I hope to continue this discussion and eventually tweak and alter the style and the build until they are really really refined. Everyone should also feel free to send me replays: if they're good I'll add them to the OP>
superbarnie: How embarrassing, thank you sir!
zeeQue: Awesome, I'm not the only one! If you are so inclined, please feel free to send me replays sir!
ticklishmusic: Not at all: the timings I have posted, as mentioned, are really idealized and you will always find yourself behind them. You're doing ling/infestor, but you're adding in banelings and tons of spines. You'll also find yourself in scenarios that demand lots of queens or even hydralisks. Just because you're not using roaches doesn't mean you automatically die to any attack before the 16 minute mark. Also, AoE effectiveness is drastically diminished once the ultras arrive. The lings have a tough time, but banes seem to do okay and ultras soak up so much damage at 5/3. If you watch the replays you'll see how these fights can turn out. It's definitely a tough style to play though, and I think you'd need really good practice vs all of the timings.
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I can't access my SC2 atm cos it's bugged out and my lack of internet half the times means I can't sort it... But I'm sure I have some good replays hidden away, will send them on, don't expect sensational play though, Only a diamond!! xD
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I don't think it's possible to hold off certain gateway timings without roaches, unless you're banking on your opponent screwing up FFs.
Still, interesting style, but way too many holes. I think roach-less zvp comes down to either muta ling or ling bane rain, FFs are just too good for drop-less banelings, and ling infestor with NP nerf just gets hurt so hard by dedicated 2 base colossi/sentry immortal pushes. 3+ colossi just make lings look completely worthless.
edit: I'll give it a shot as I play right now, I'm high diamond.
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I don't think you need roaches if you are going 2 base lair.
That said, I really don't like 2 base lair for anything but some sort of pressure or semi-all-innish timing (hydra drop nydus, infestor timing, 2 base muta, roach/ling). I just don't see why you would go 2 base lair when you could go 3 base lair. I don't like roaches either, but 3 base > 2 base, and if you aren't hitting a timing to damage Toss, I really don't think you can compete with 2 base.
Why not just go the standard fast third (which you really need roaches for to defend early to early-midgame pressure), and make a build from there?
That said... I wrote a guide about a very similar playstyle in ZvP a while back (ling/banerain into ling/banerain/infestor into ultra/baneling with infestor as AA).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223676
I know this will sound kind of mean, but I couldnt help but notice you were in diamond but... I was in diamond league when I wrote that guide. I really don't think my guide is viable at all except in lower level play, but I thought it was the shit because it worked great for me in diamond. Simlarly, I don't think what you are proposing, as it stands as 2 base lair macro play and ultras, would work either ;/
Id love to be proven wrong, but the infestor nerf made ultras not really good anymore, and banerain is awesome for the mid-game if you like to play aggresion, but you have to go roach/banerain/infestor - 3+ colossi just own infinite lings, so without NP anymore to neuter colossi, you can't go banerain without roaches as the meat. I also kind of feel that roach/banerain/infestor is not really a good playstyle.
On a side note, kind of funny about the infestor nerf. They nerfed infestor, but right before they nerfed it zergs were discovering fast third before lair play, and that mutas/infestor+spine is much, much better. I think if NP came back, zergs wouldnt use it. Kind of sad, they just remove a cool option in the game, but oh well.
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On May 05 2012 23:28 Belial88 wrote:I don't think you need roaches if you are going 2 base lair. That said, I really don't like 2 base lair for anything but some sort of pressure or semi-all-innish timing (hydra drop nydus, infestor timing, 2 base muta, roach/ling). I just don't see why you would go 2 base lair when you could go 3 base lair. I don't like roaches either, but 3 base > 2 base, and if you aren't hitting a timing to damage Toss, I really don't think you can compete with 2 base. Why not just go the standard fast third (which you really need roaches for to defend early to early-midgame pressure), and make a build from there? That said... I wrote a guide about a very similar playstyle in ZvP a while back (ling/banerain into ling/banerain/infestor into ultra/baneling with infestor as AA). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223676I know this will sound kind of mean, but I couldnt help but notice you were in diamond but... I was in diamond league when I wrote that guide. I really don't think my guide is viable at all except in lower level play, but I thought it was the shit because it worked great for me in diamond. Simlarly, I don't think what you are proposing, as it stands as 2 base lair macro play and ultras, would work either ;/ Id love to be proven wrong, but the infestor nerf made ultras not really good anymore, and banerain is awesome for the mid-game if you like to play aggresion, but you have to go roach/banerain/infestor - 3+ colossi just own infinite lings, so without NP anymore to neuter colossi, you can't go banerain without roaches as the meat. I also kind of feel that roach/banerain/infestor is not really a good playstyle. On a side note, kind of funny about the infestor nerf. They nerfed infestor, but right before they nerfed it zergs were discovering fast third before lair play, and that mutas/infestor+spine is much, much better. I think if NP came back, zergs wouldnt use it. Kind of sad, they just remove a cool option in the game, but oh well.
Hello Belial, glad to see you here .
I was actually just looking at your old guide again (I'll edit the link into the OP as well, just as a point of reference). What I'm proposing here is in fact a 3 hatch before gas opening, taking your third before your first extractor a la Stephano style and not a 2base lair play. I tried 2base lair for a long while, but you fall to far behind - I don't think it can work. I'll admit, as it stands now it's a lot tougher than the Stephano style, and there are a ton of timing's I'm really scared of (+1 Zealot 4gate, +2 Blink Allin, and 2 base Colossus timings in particular). I don't see pros using this anytime soon because everything about it seems really fragile.
But that's sort of why I started the thread - it's unlikely that I will, on my own, develop solutions to all these problems so I've turned this into a discussion rather than a guide. Hopefully some Masters level players will become interested and help find the necessary solutions to turn this into a viable strategy.
Yeah it's a shame about the NP nerf, I only ever see it being used on Motherships. Even a less severe nerf would have been a great addition to this and solved a lot of problems I feel.
And I'm officially diamond but I don't rate myself that good - I really am a low-level player just looking to grow a fun, if suicidal, style of play. Thank you for your input, sir, I'm going to do more investigation and hopefully, with time, this will turn into something legitimate!
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On May 05 2012 23:13 Flonomenalz wrote:
I don't think it's possible to hold off certain gateway timings without roaches, unless you're banking on your opponent screwing up FFs.
Still, interesting style, but way too many holes. I think roach-less zvp comes down to either muta ling or ling bane rain, FFs are just too good for drop-less banelings, and ling infestor with NP nerf just gets hurt so hard by dedicated 2 base colossi/sentry immortal pushes. 3+ colossi just make lings look completely worthless.
edit: I'll give it a shot as I play right now, I'm high diamond.
Yeah there are some timings that seem really tough without roaches, but hopefully there are alternative solutions available.
With sentries I feel like this style will need to approach the problem differently. One thing that would help is to get a decent swell of lings and force a lot of FF from P as he moves out. Lings and banelings will murder most gateway compositions once you take FF out of the equation and you make sure to engage on creep (micro advantage).
Please send me the replays, would love to see!
On May 05 2012 22:38 zeeQue wrote:
I can't access my SC2 atm cos it's bugged out and my lack of internet half the times means I can't sort it... But I'm sure I have some good replays hidden away, will send them on, don't expect sensational play though, Only a diamond!! xD
That would be much appreciated! Skill level is not a concern, I don't expect any GMs to go on loosing streaks for the sake of fun.
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With the new balance changes, I wonder whether going mass queen early in the game (like 6-8) would be a good idea.
They're no longer outranged by Stalkers and the increased creep spread is really going to aid this heavily ground-based style. Transfusing spine crawlers is really effective, especially when you get him to commit a bunch of zealots to killing it. It should also shut down Stargate play cold and a hydralisk den might become entirely peripheral to the style. I'll have to play some games to find out but it seems very much worth it.
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Switch optional hydras for corruptors and add queens to your composition and you have ultimate ZvP composition that is unbeatable by standard Protoss armies. I've been recommending this over a year ago already.
And yes, it has much higher skill cap than most styles, but with it, it's also MUCH more potent.
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This style is a fuckton of fun.
In essence, it's "if I have more stuff than you, dear P, you WILL die, no matter your ground composition".
I killed allin 2base Immortal / Sentry / Stalker / Zealot pushes with this, which would be 100% instawin against Stephano Roaches. Killing whole deathballs with pure ling / bane is a ton of fun.
Only problem with this style is I just can't resist blowing all my banes up in the ball when I see I clearly wipe out everything, but I could retreat the banes and let the lings do the rest of the work...
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On May 05 2012 23:28 Belial88 wrote:
Why not just go the standard fast third (which you really need roaches for to defend early to early-midgame pressure), and make a build from there?
This is the right thing to do, i think.
Some month ago, i was mid master (now i'm a just a low master  ), and i was using 2 bases lair then go to speedling + infestor in every ZvP (with a infested terran agression). Then speedling baneling infestor and then ultralisk (and broodlord later).
That's was pretty cool and fun. And my win rate in ZvP was good.
But 2 bases lair is too "all-in". On the ladder it's ok because every all-in can works on the ladder. But you win because protoss players don't scout, not because you are good. It's a bad thing (for me).
Last week, i watched Idra stream. He was player pure speedling/baneling for all the early and the mid game in ZvP. With baneling drop to kill colossi and sentries. That's was awesome. But even Idra can't hold a gateway all-in without a roach warren.
I think you can go on 3 bases, take 2 gases at 6:00, get the +1/+1 and stay on 3 gases to hold a gateway all-in (roach + many speedling). After that, you can go speedling baneling infestor (with baneling drop) to be safe until ultralisk and/or broodlords.
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On May 05 2012 08:00 SeinGalton wrote:
~ 15:40 Start +3/+3
~ 16:00 +3/+3 Neo Sauron Zerg Invasion.
Probably want to adjust that 
Looks like something I might try if I get back into zerg!
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Nice post!
i've been trying this style for a while as 3 base roach every pvz is kinda boring, this is fun!. What i feel is that you have to keep on the timings to have the proper composition in case the protoss goes 2 base turtle allin. (ultras are required)
As OP said you really need to keep on top your scouting as there are a lot of timing pushes that can easily kill you. I would recommend building a roach warren to be safe but not producing roaches unless required, with a good amount of speedlings you can delay the toss push by run-by or forcing forcefields.In theory with banes you should be able to stop the toss as well but I think is risky and then you will have the hydra den to stop gateway or gateway/immortal pushes
I think the drop tech is a must as u need to have something to counter forcefields and also keeping the toss in base , but remember, once u kill the probes, the toss is going to go for the kill, so if you plan a banedrop you better have bank and larvae available (its very sad losing after killing all toss economy )
I would say the counter to this is fast High templar or builds such the "zealot dance party" (9 or 10 gates only zealot) and you should fear archons as well. Thats why you need the roach warren,
and here my questions:
why lair before +1 +1?,
I think this post is helpfull http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.phptopic_id=336304
Has anyone tested this in zvz?
I haven't tryied it too much but I've been successfull with ultra hydra composition, of course in maps whit a lot of rush distance so mass zerling early and mid game is viable.
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What is important about this style is you HAVE to catch the P army as he moves out. You CANNOT engage even near your expansions because you need to force a lot of forcefields before he reaches your base so your lings and banes can get to work. Notice it's virtually impossible to forcefield out banelings (contraty to lings), because they are either before the FFs, where you can retreat, or behind the FFs where they are bound to deal their damage anyway.
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How many hatcheries do you build ? One macro hatch / base ?
I'm asking this question especially early game...
But this looks like fucking fun. I'll try this against friends before trying this on the ladder btw :p
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I just somewhat feel your going so far out of your way to play non standard as to not really make much sense, I think a much more logical way to reach this lategame setup is going for your standard 3 base roach > muta. Then adding in banelings similar to how leenock adds them in and then add infestors and ultras for your lategame transition.
Also from previous games where similar compositions were reached, again mostly leenocks games to work with here, but protoss can get a composition of immortals archons etc which are so cost efficient vs things like this when they get on 4+ bases, the way I think it should be played is to constantly crash into the protoss keeping them on 3 bases until they basically mine out, first with the roaches, then mutas, then your ultra infestor comp. You can always add broodlords in eventually and transition to your standard lategame if you can find the money for it.
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This looks a lot like like Morrow's ZvP from last summer while allowing for an quick third base and better economy.
If the protoss is going to do a blind counter to roaches then they're going to die a horrible death. At the same time, if the toss has no clue how to respond then you're probably going to win. If the toss has more than 4 sentries and 2+ colossus then this style has a REALLY hard time. I still had a strong ZvP record until mutas became more popular. Suddenly canons by every base and early blink dealt with drop harass rather easily. I stopped using the style because I was losing almost every ZvP to mass colossus/blink stalker/sentry.
But hey, with good macro you can overcome a lot in lower leagues. As long as you inject well this seems like a fun build to pull out in a tournament or against friends. The layout of the "guide" was nice and it's fun to mess around with nonstandard play as a break from serious gaming.
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speedling / baneling / infestor can counter a sentries + colossus, but you need drop upgrades. So it's really hard to counter a "fast colossus".
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This reminds me of the style I did as zerg when I played zvp and zvt before the infestor nerfs. I went 2 base ling infestor and maxed on ultra/baneling/infestor. It rolled the void ray colossus build that was popular at the time.
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What do you do against a really fast FFE into 3gas, 6~7 gates, does Ling/Baneling only cut it? I think I might get a lot of wins with this style if I can defend against those very early 2 base all-ins...
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Im sorry to say but at the "core" this is a pure style, its been played most notably by DRG about half an year ago and its simply bad, no roach can make you much more vulnerable to some timings and your late game army is quite frankly worse than broodlord infestor by about 10 times, and even if its pretty mobile its still limited at 2.5 speed and can't siege.
It might be better against tosses hard countering roach play and that can be so even only cuz its much harder to split + ff against ling than it is to ff and a move vs roaches.
So i guess... yeah, it might be funnier to play for some people, have fun playing it i guess.
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i really like this style and try to play it since about a year, but here are my problems:
early game:
- attack upgraded zealots
- good forcefields
mid game:
- any attack with forcefields before my ultras pop (which is like most 2 base allins)
- air play (hydras are pretty bad even against air, and when he commits to air + colossi im kinda screwed without mass corruptors or mass infestor)
late game:
- storm shreds all lings + blings, leaving 4-10 ultras which die ridiculously fast to a couple upgraded immortals (+archons)
maybe you can give me some hints how to handle those crucial weaknesses of my play =)
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On May 12 2012 02:05 Cirqueenflex wrote:
i really like this style and try to play it since about a year, but here are my problems:
early game:
- attack upgraded zealots
- good forcefields
mid game:
- any attack with forcefields before my ultras pop (which is like most 2 base allins)
- air play (hydras are pretty bad even against air, and when he commits to air + colossi im kinda screwed without mass corruptors or mass infestor)
late game:
- storm shreds all lings + blings, leaving 4-10 ultras which die ridiculously fast to a couple upgraded immortals (+archons)
maybe you can give me some hints how to handle those crucial weaknesses of my play =)
You're fucking Sauron Zerg, fuck handling weaknesses, just swarm ALL THE THINGS
I have encountered some of the same problems, like 7 gate with upgraded zealots, air play, and any agression before the 10 min mark. Most of it is just me not macroing good enough I think, and I have only played this for 10 games or so, so I am lacking severely in experience, but these are the problems I've encountered so far.
Despite that, it is an EXTREMELY fun way to play, bar the silly losses against 2 warp ins of +1 zealots
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Master zerg here, putting my 2 cents:
Nice guide, Super fun style if you hate roaches (I even avoid them in zvz).
Notes on your build and upgrades: I would go for drops instead of insta hive, if you need to buy time just do some runbys to the third or to his main. Reason for getting drops: bane rain of course, and when not being attacked, the first bane rain with +2attack can just tear the toss economy appart with just 8 banes.
Extras that OP did not add: This build is not an "A+Click" build, it requires a lot of micro so your lings don´t just die to forcefields or your festor don´t get caught up in the middle of fungaling.
Difference with Stephano style: If you mess up your injects, you are dead, macro hatcheries are needed even more heavily, don´t waste so much larva o lings, if you have extra minerals, just put spines and redrone. This style is not a good deffensive style, you need to catch the protoss army BEFORE they reach a choke, even with ultras breaking ffs, things get pretty ugly in a choke point. 3/3 Crackling runbys are a must, just sent 30/40 to target a nexus, that is cost effective as hell. Don´t forget that +2 banes 1 shot probes, drops and burrow play is important if you want to make this work at high level-
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Hello guys.
I'll try to answer some questions as best I can! Sorry if I don't respond to everyone, there's a lot of things I'd like to touch on.
-Kira: Corrupters would make a good addition yes, especially vs Colossi and Voidrays. I'm trying to keep the style as lean as possible right now though (in favour of an earlier ideal army) but would absolutely recommend throwing down double spire in the very late game (> 23:00). The tech transition can (I feel) really throw Protoss off and allows for a powerful, aggressive and unpredictable Zerg lategame. Thanks for your input and keep promoting it!
Mahtasooma: I'm glad you're also having fun with this kind of play. I suffer the same lack of restraint and urge to blow up banelings. Fortunately, once you kill the Deathball outright, you have oftentimes already won. I think baneling control is something that will be critical for this style at higher levels.
Magus.421: You're right, this does not work on 2base Lair, economically you are too far behind. It has to be 3 bases to facilitate gas requirements and production. I think it needs 4 base before it can get aggressive. I also saw IdrA having a tough time with it, but it did look promising. I'm beginning to think it has legitimate potential. On the roaches: it makes a lot of sense, but I'm not yet convinced that un-upgraded roaches are better than upgraded banelings and tons of queens and spines. If you oversimplify the economy drastically: 20 Roaches (75/25 * 20 = 1500/ 500) = 20 Banelings + 3 Queens + 3 Spines + 2 Drones. What do you think? Still, a backup Roach Warren is probably a good idea, I fully agree.
Kasu: Well noted sir, a mistake that has been remedied. New timings are up, hope these make more sense.
Nakranoth: Yeah I don't have any clear answers as of yet to Zealot Dance Parties, Quick HT or Zealot Archon. I'll have to investigate exactly the timings and whether this style has reasonable responses. Banerain seems legitimate to the latter two. I will say early spines are crucial for the former, and the new Queens. As for the lair timing: I'm not sold on it yet, but it allows for earlier banerain and earlier hydralisk in case of scouting a worrisome timing/all-in. You add on extra gas as the lair morphs so your +1/+1 shouldn't arrive terribly late. Still not sure though. Thanks for linking that thread, it does tie in fairly well with this. I haven't tried it in ZvZ (and I think you'll definitely need a backup RW there) but it doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. Also, please feel free to send me your replays!
Mahtasooma: Absolutely, excellent point: it is actually critical to engage him as close to his base possible, you're relying on a focused, rallied, and offensive re-max to kill him, and you don't want to be defending with it. I'll be sure to add this to the OP, thanks for pointing it out. Excellent point on the banelings too.
Insoleet: Yes, I think one macro Hatch per base is a minimum, perhaps even 3MH/2base if your injects suck like mine do. I add my first MH not too long after my 3rd, usually 8:00 - 9:00 min mark. Awesome to hear, I hope you have fun and are able to win in style!
lksf: I partly disagree, sir. I think doing the roach and muta switches, whilst not unreasonable, is not the goal of this play. The crux for me here is getting to that ideal army as soon as possible and add in only the necessary tech. I think of it as a late-game timing attack. Also, the roaches and the muta they are at best peripheral to the style, and I'd rather keep this as lean as possible. But Mutas in particular are certainly not discouraged and seem to me a very reasonable avenue to investigate as a stepping stone.
Servius_Fulvius: Thank you sir. Yeah I'm not sold on aggressive dropping, it seems too easy to deal with and delays your tech a little. That whole period where bainrain would ordinarily kick in feels a little awkward to me still, whether I'm being aggressive or defensive. I think the drops will only work if Protoss is spread really thin and has made bad tech choices. In these cases I think it is better to feign aggression and tech to Ultras as quickly as possible behind it.
Magus.421: I think I'll add a "Beware of:" section and a 2-base colossus timing would certainly be atop that list. Absolutely right.
Alpino: The 2-base all-ins scare me a little, but with the new patch I'd recommend lots of spines and queens, tons of lings and as few banelings as possible, proportional to his Zealot and Sentry count. Also, try to get good positioning. If you can take out the pylon in the middle of the attack you should be able to beat the all-in without breaking a sweat. I hope you try it and I hope you like it!
Aterons_toss: I'm sorry that you think it is simply bad. Even if the composition is 10x worse than BL Infestor (and it isn't) the remax at least redeems that - which is what you're actually winning with. The composition is just to cripple the Deathball, and I can't think of a better composition to do so. This ensures maximum damage in minimum time. Also, this is more fun. And I play for fun. And this is Neo Sauron Zerg. And Fuck Yeah! :D
Cirqueenflex: Those are legitimate concerns! With the Zealots - I'm convinced that Queens, spines and a few blings are the only way to deal with this, and I think it's so potent that you have to "expect" it every game. For forcefields: bait as many as you can before retreating to you spines and setting up flanks. Air play: the normal way - lots of queens and spines, and run your zerglings to his front, maybe a runby or a bust is viable! Storm: if you see him teching to HT, immediately get drops, the overlords will get your lings and blings amongst the protoss and absorb storm pretty well. I hope that helps a little, I'm probably not the best person to ask!
Aocowns: Fuck yeah! That is exactly the mindset this style needs. I don't believe this style cannot solve some of those problems, I think it just needs figuring out. Please send me your replays, wins or losses, I'd absolutely love to examine them. I'm glad you are having fun playing this way. It's how real men play ZvP.
FuriousEgg: Beautiful, thank you. I'm going to put everything you said there into the OP, I just need to restructure it a bit. This is precisely the type of post I was hoping to see, a good player giving advice and helping to flesh it out. Thank you sir!
Thanks for all the feedback everyone! I would really appreciate any replays, regardless of league or ranking. I aim to flesh out the guide more but I don't have time to play so many games. So I need your games to help me turn this discussion into a guide proper! And I hope everyone trying this out is having a ton of fun - it might be the only thing going for this>
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Feels like Zerg is able to play everything vs Toss and still win.
Greetings.
User was warned for this post
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On May 12 2012 01:43 Aterons_toss wrote:
Im sorry to say but at the "core" this is a pure style, its been played most notably by DRG about half an year ago and its simply bad, no roach can make you much more vulnerable to some timings and your late game army is quite frankly worse than broodlord infestor by about 10 times, and even if its pretty mobile its still limited at 2.5 speed and can't siege.
It might be better against tosses hard countering roach play and that can be so even only cuz its much harder to split + ff against ling than it is to ff and a move vs roaches.
So i guess... yeah, it might be funnier to play for some people, have fun playing it i guess.
I don't think you're looking at the bigger picture with this.
In a BO-X series using this in the first game would be a mind fuck, I've seen it plenty of times, I have 3 styles ZvP and utilise all of them when in tournament play and on ladder it could work one day and not the other but I've seen a lot of Ps not be able to handle this, they panic half the time and start throwing random compositions at you. It's a fun style that I think people need to try and perfect.
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Just my two cents:
It would seem to me as if there are 2 large concerns with this style: First, it's ability to hold/counter midgame aggression or all ins from toss, and secondly, whether or not a 2 base/3 base lair would be economically competitive against an FFE/fast third.
My suggestion to counter act this would be to adopt a more hydra/ling centric style of defense, while getting a lair up, and into the necessary tech that zerg would need.
Day[9] did a daily on this a while back:
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-412-p1-zvp-roach-free-zeniownage-5927675
Now, while in the Daily, Zenio goes for mutalisks, his defense of the early/midgame aggression remains the same:
1. An early gas -> ling speed is used to deny any proxies/probes from making their way across the map. (Potential chance for baneling bust here?)
These drones stay in gas to set up an early lair. (Another queen can be used for fast creep, this prevents proxies from the immediate area and helps the hydra defense/vision)
2. Once lair is done, an hydralisk den immediately goes down (and hydra range, thereafter). From here, Zenio begins to deviate into a mutalisking style of play, but him getting the lair out to prevent aggression is something easily applicable to this style as well.
3. Once this large, midgame aggression begins to move out across the map (already some-what delayed, because our fast zerglings held towers and stopped proxies), the idea is to get a substantial number of hydras out to hold the attack. This hydra-ling composition becomes sufficient to hold aggression because the hydra range is able to stay on equal range of stalkers/immortals. Forcefields not only lose effectiveness because the hydra is able to stay on par in range, but also because ling/hydras are much harder to box out the larger roach. This is not a mass hydra defense, or a mass ling defense, but together, you can hold off aggression (I personally play the Zenio style as seen in the Daily on ladder, this hydra/ling composition as worked out great for me). Zealot dance parties/fast archons/fast ht are nullified because the hydras rip so easily through them. Even if the protoss were to go for storm, that would only buy time for a more critical mass of these hydras, or for the infestors/lair/hive tech to come into effect.
To address the economic issues, I would say that because this build is so gas starved, and hydra/ling can defend well, it wouldn't be out of the zerg depth to be able to double expand, or at least stay ahead in expansions, to acquire the gas for T3 tech.
I personally agree with the idea that an ultralisk/infestor/baneling composition would do well to cripple a deathball, then easily remax on lings, and if needed, hydras.
Good post by the OP, and this looks like an interesting part of ZvP that I'd definitely be willing to try out.
If any greater zerg would like to disagree with me on the ling/hydra style of defense, please do, I play the style 100% of the time in my ZvPs, and interested on what you guys think/how that applies to this style.
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Andromedan: I tried that style for a long time. I think it has potential, and I still like it (you'll see I made such a provision in the OP under "Diversions") but right now I'm wondering if a Mass Queen defense is not the way to go. Quite beefy, zero gas multipurpose units. They benefit more from good mechanics and put them alongside lings, banes and spines and it sounds like a solid midgame defense to me. The only problem that I had with the hydra build was that it felt like a massive bump in my play everytime and very very conditional. I could have solved with more practice but right now I'm liking the elegance of something like the Queen defense. You can also get earlier +/1+1 and delay lair tech.
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I feel as if the hydras can provide a better dps and a better range when holding off the attacks. The queen, while gasless, still only has a 5 range, is slower, and is more easily boxed by forcefields. Not to mention, hydras are a big unit you can incorporate later on, if a roach/hydra, or a remax on it were necessary. I still think hydras can serve a large purpose in the defense, but at the very least i think the tech should be considered.
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On May 12 2012 07:50 zeeQue wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:43 Aterons_toss wrote:
Im sorry to say but at the "core" this is a pure style, its been played most notably by DRG about half an year ago and its simply bad, no roach can make you much more vulnerable to some timings and your late game army is quite frankly worse than broodlord infestor by about 10 times, and even if its pretty mobile its still limited at 2.5 speed and can't siege.
It might be better against tosses hard countering roach play and that can be so even only cuz its much harder to split + ff against ling than it is to ff and a move vs roaches.
So i guess... yeah, it might be funnier to play for some people, have fun playing it i guess. I don't think you're looking at the bigger picture with this. In a BO-X series using this in the first game would be a mind fuck, I've seen it plenty of times, I have 3 styles ZvP and utilise all of them when in tournament play and on ladder it could work one day and not the other but I've seen a lot of Ps not be able to handle this, they panic half the time and start throwing random compositions at you. It's a fun style that I think people need to try and perfect.
Well, that's pretty much what i said, good for diversity at a non pro level.
I never argued against it, i just said that it will never work at the highest level since pro tosses have know how to react to it.
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This style was popular like ~1year ago ..
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You'd be surprised at what a ling/infestor/bling/ultra composition can roll through.
I had a game I thought was easily lost... toss had just killed my 4th and 5th bases, and I was mining on 2 bases. I thought, "whelp, better max on what I can and try to kill his army." I had 4 ultras, 5 infestors, and the rest was ling/bling. I completely demolished his stalker/collosus/sentry/zealot/immortal army with just a basic flank.
Ultra/bane really packs a punch against toss.
This style is also super-fun. I actually will get slightly faster upgrades (start them before lair, and then start lair immediately afterwards).
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You should still make a roach warren even if you aren't planning on making roaches in case you need them. Ling/bling is mainly about the protoss fucking up, not about how well you do honestly. In order to hold alot of timings you are still going to want a few roaches just in case. The good thing about roaches is they produce faster and tend to do better in small number than banelings, especially against +1 zealot timings. Late game infestor, ultra, baneling is far easier to deal with than Broodlord, infestor, corruptor. Good sim city and micro tends to shut down this style pretty well.
The composition is great against standard blink stalker, sentry, colossus, but if toss realizes what is going on and switches to archon, immotral, HT, chargelot....you're gonna have a bad time.
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How do you hold 2 base all ins without roaches?
edit: most notably those scary +1 zealot timings with ~4 warp gates
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Wasn´t this style really popular last year?
With banedrops to deal with FFs?
I dunno why avoid Roaches, they are pretty useful to hold off some timmings and its not like you have to commit to Roaches. Although I guess Banes and Lings could hold some timmings if you have a good creep spread.
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not gonna lie, i kinda dont like when ppl name a build after themselves or something as if they were the sole creator of it, but u did make a thread on it so its cool and i wont complain about it.
ive been experimenting with a similiar ling, bane, ultra style with lots of success in ZvP for nearly a year now.
i loved it because i hated how immobile BL/infestors were. its a very flexible style and if u mix in bane rain with it it is devastating even to a death ball.
it requires micro, but the number of drops u can do with the build is great. u can even add in nydus play with the build which all goes back to how flexible the build is. u can do almost anything with it and the swarm factor is huge as was already noted.
but all that being said, this style is basically just something that spawns from a bane rain style. if u were a player that used bane drops alot then this style should be fairly easy for you as it is the same concept with the main difference being how aggressive ur lings are.
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Getting Overlord Drops is the only style available to all three races that allows you to throw pure minerals at your opponent trying to throw them off / do damage (Overlords + Zerglings).
I think this is a much underused tactic. So instead of saying "hey, I got a LOT of minerals, might as well build a ton of spines" you can likewise say "hey, I got a lot of minerals, might as well throw 5 OLs full of Zerglings in his base".
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^ Warp prism + zealot doesn't cost any minerals.
I tried to make overlord drop + ling work for a long time in all 3 match-ups. It just doesn't really work. Protoss and Terran tend to be defensive against Zerg, so trying to harass someone who's turtling isn't really a good idea (mutas are a little different, they are half decent as combat units due to dps, and are really really good at harass). They tend to have cannons/turrets up, not to mention their entire army isn't far. Against Toss, they can just warp in a zealot or two (if the cannons they had that they make in anticipation of mutas isn't enough), and terran usually has a stream of rax by that point of the game.
Just running by with lings tends to work more often, and does more damage.
Ultra/bane/infestor can tear through any toss army (except maybe mass carrier), but the problem is that it's extreme cost inefficient, while P can basically make zealots for free to deal with both banes and ultras very cost efficiently. The problem in ZvP isn't getting bases as zerg, it's getting tech to deal with what they have, in time (mutas/infestors vs stalker/immortals/sentry deathball, bl vs colossi, speed roach vs sentry/immortal or blink).
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On May 14 2012 19:51 Belial88 wrote:
^ Warp prism + zealot doesn't cost any minerals.
I tried to make overlord drop + ling work for a long time in all 3 match-ups. It just doesn't really work. Protoss and Terran tend to be defensive against Zerg, so trying to harass someone who's turtling isn't really a good idea (mutas are a little different, they are half decent as combat units due to dps, and are really really good at harass). They tend to have cannons/turrets up, not to mention their entire army isn't far. Against Toss, they can just warp in a zealot or two (if the cannons they had that they make in anticipation of mutas isn't enough), and terran usually has a stream of rax by that point of the game.
Just running by with lings tends to work more often, and does more damage.
Ultra/bane/infestor can tear through any toss army (except maybe mass carrier), but the problem is that it's extreme cost inefficient, while P can basically make zealots for free to deal with both banes and ultras very cost efficiently. The problem in ZvP isn't getting bases as zerg, it's getting tech to deal with what they have, in time (mutas/infestors vs stalker/immortals/sentry deathball, bl vs colossi, speed roach vs sentry/immortal or blink).
That couldn't be farther from the truth
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Warp prism does cost gas and the probability of losing a warp prism (and, more importantly, robo build time) is pretty high.
OL drops is not to do harrassment when he's sitting in his base, obviously. It's harrassing midfight, when he's moving out or when you are poking at the front.
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This looks fucking fun as shit. I'm so excited, I can't believe I haven't seen this before. Thanks!
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Alright, so I just saw this thread and let me just say...WELCOME MY BROTHER! This is the unit composition that will replace infestor/blord in zvt and zvp, I'm sure of it. It's so easy to max out and take a new base with every push. Even if they don't just roll over and die right away you'll still kill their army and remax immediately. I don't think drops are worth it unless you're on 5+ bases worth of gas(this is theorycraft, because I haven't used this in zvp, I do use that in zvt though) My question is this. A typical protoss 2 base timing is about 9 minutes now. Do you just defend that with ling/bane? Do you have baneling speed?
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reminds me of dimaga who uses baneling rainbomb just in case of sentries heavy gateway push
then goes for a ultra ling baneling infestor push.
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Hi, I'm a master Zerg player myself who strives for this sorta build, but with my own additions.
A few comments/questions on the build(s):
- Is the early bane nest for just doing something against +1 zeals 4gate timing or is it to play a mindgame if he scouts it?
- How well do you do against a FFE double robo colo production? I think that will hit before your ultra's for sure
- Same questions but then with Stoms and some 2base allin variation of it?
- How do you feel about adding Blords in the endgame mix? They're great for supporting and sieges.
- Since you're sort of rushing for Ultra's you can, if your injects are perfect, don't even make a macro hatch. Just a faster 4th.
- Why do most tosses go gate expo in your replays? The FFE game i think he could've killed you but then backed off to secure his 3rd
- And what do the tosses in your replays have against a FFE +1 zealot 4 gate timing? xD
- Seems you really like your 3 macro hatches
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i play this style alot and i do an early evo to keep up with toss upgrades. i take drones off gas @ 100 (for ling speed), for that extra income for expo, then put back on gas asap -> plop evo at 80 gas and it will finish by the time 150gas comes around for armor upgrade.
also, depending on the aggressiveness of my opponent, sometimes i will start 2base roach, but do melee ups, and transition into ultra ling at hive.
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Hi again
I've been working around this build lately,
what I found:
I do not know yet if the bane nest is enough for holding pushes between 7:00- 8:00 min mark (the build is very weak at this point), you could always scout absence of gas in the natural and build a 6:30 roach warren if you think pressure is coming.
There is the chance to bane bust allin the toss if you see he is being very gas greedy (no sentries), usually when trying to go stargate + zealots.
what is cool: lately toss try to go fast robo instead of 2 base with a lot of gates allin (at least in my league (diamond) in EU).
You really need the drops to delay the toss until ultralisks or at least deal with forcefields befor ultras.
and here, my contribution:
if you go double gas you can afford upgrades before lair so they go smoother, check the 16 min mark:
here is my build in sc2planner (not refined yet) if you can improve it I would be very glad:
this is ideal of course and any pressure should make you react and delay everything.
sc2planner build
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omg how did I never notice this thread before? I hate both roaches and brood lords SO much and would cut off my left nut to be able to play all ZvX matchups without making either of those units. I am going to be trying this out tonight on ladder, can't wait to see how it goes!
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You are only a platinum player? This sounds awesome and the theory is there. Time for execution. <3 Sauron Zerg.
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On May 14 2012 20:08 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 19:51 Belial88 wrote:
^ Warp prism + zealot doesn't cost any minerals.
I tried to make overlord drop + ling work for a long time in all 3 match-ups. It just doesn't really work. Protoss and Terran tend to be defensive against Zerg, so trying to harass someone who's turtling isn't really a good idea (mutas are a little different, they are half decent as combat units due to dps, and are really really good at harass). They tend to have cannons/turrets up, not to mention their entire army isn't far. Against Toss, they can just warp in a zealot or two (if the cannons they had that they make in anticipation of mutas isn't enough), and terran usually has a stream of rax by that point of the game.
Just running by with lings tends to work more often, and does more damage.
Ultra/bane/infestor can tear through any toss army (except maybe mass carrier), but the problem is that it's extreme cost inefficient, while P can basically make zealots for free to deal with both banes and ultras very cost efficiently. The problem in ZvP isn't getting bases as zerg, it's getting tech to deal with what they have, in time (mutas/infestors vs stalker/immortals/sentry deathball, bl vs colossi, speed roach vs sentry/immortal or blink). That couldn't be farther from the truth
Thanks for the quality post. Care to explain why you think a mineral only unit on 3+ base toss isn't free or how 5 (or 6? i think 5) zealots killing ultras isn't cost efficient?
Warp prism does cost gas and the probability of losing a warp prism (and, more importantly, robo build time) is pretty high.
warp prism is 200 minerals o_o
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On May 18 2012 23:10 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:08 Moosegills wrote:On May 14 2012 19:51 Belial88 wrote:
^ Warp prism + zealot doesn't cost any minerals.
I tried to make overlord drop + ling work for a long time in all 3 match-ups. It just doesn't really work. Protoss and Terran tend to be defensive against Zerg, so trying to harass someone who's turtling isn't really a good idea (mutas are a little different, they are half decent as combat units due to dps, and are really really good at harass). They tend to have cannons/turrets up, not to mention their entire army isn't far. Against Toss, they can just warp in a zealot or two (if the cannons they had that they make in anticipation of mutas isn't enough), and terran usually has a stream of rax by that point of the game.
Just running by with lings tends to work more often, and does more damage.
Ultra/bane/infestor can tear through any toss army (except maybe mass carrier), but the problem is that it's extreme cost inefficient, while P can basically make zealots for free to deal with both banes and ultras very cost efficiently. The problem in ZvP isn't getting bases as zerg, it's getting tech to deal with what they have, in time (mutas/infestors vs stalker/immortals/sentry deathball, bl vs colossi, speed roach vs sentry/immortal or blink). That couldn't be farther from the truth Thanks for the quality post. Care to explain why you think a mineral only unit on 3+ base toss isn't free or how 5 (or 6? i think 5) zealots killing ultras isn't cost efficient? Show nested quote +Warp prism does cost gas and the probability of losing a warp prism (and, more importantly, robo build time) is pretty high. warp prism is 200 minerals o_o
Quality of the post lol. You said that zealots deal with banelings cost effectively. What more can I say then you are flat out wrong.
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Can you be a little more specific? People tend to agree that zealots handle banelings pretty well, unless you are going by blizzards unit X counters unit Y sheet, or in odd situations. In a real game, zealots tend to deal with banelings very well. It takes what, 5 banelings to kill a zealot i believe? If you have them all clumped up, you may have a problem, but in general zealots are very cost efficient against banelings. Considering they only cost minerals, and in lategame, toss can basically get zealots for 'free' in the sense that minerals is not a limiting factor for them at all, much like for zerg, trading zealots for gas is a great trade, especially when it's extremely cost inefficient trade at that.
I mean I wrote a guide very, very much like this one about a year ago. Zealots countering both my banelings and ultras were my biggest problem, especially after a big battle I won, toss would warp in a ton of zealots at home and that would be all it takes to end my counterattack, and thent he game would go on for another 5-10 minutes when it should have just been ended if i just went roaches or something else.
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ultralisks should stun block units that are in its splash.
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I'm not really sure what you mean when you say "people tend to agree". From my personal experience at top master/gm level on NA, there has almost never been a time where i didn't think my banelings traded cost inefficiently.
I go ling bane drop infestor nearly every game vs protoss (with it being my best match up) and i literally smile at my desk when i see someone make a significant amount of zealots vs me (excluding a 4 gate zealot pressure).
Unless a person has the micro capability to zealot split vs banes, i really don't see how they couldn't be cost effective. It doesn't matter that the zealots are minerals and you consider them "free" they still take up a supply portion of their army and are utterly useless when banelings are in the equation.
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im talking about lategame. Toss don't really need to split them as much like T does. If you attack, he just warps them in warp out. With sentries and storms in their army as well, they can make the zealots efficiently deal with the zealots. Unless its mass zealot vs mass banelings, its hard to trade better. Toss with a couple spread out zealots will definiltely take more than 2 banelings per zealot.
free as in zerglings are 'free' in lategame for zerg.
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I've been doing a build like this in zvp and I love it too, I don't know if you said this in there but I didn't see it, is that to counter the ultralisks and zerglings the protoss is going to go HT into Archon, get a lot of infestors and neural parasite them, if my infesters are able to get in there and neural, his army just gets stomped on completely. The macro advantage just adds insult to injury. Although I don't really think banelings are necessary, the gas can go towards more ultras/infestors. Of course I'm only in platinum right now so higher level players may be able to kill all the infestors before they can get in range.
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Were you able to get some more replays against decent opponents?
Your practice toss partner has like 33 probes at 10:00 or something... but that's where toss gets you I guess. These also were 3gate expands without pressure while letting you do your thing, which is of course ridiculous, the sole reason for a 3gate expo IS to put up pressure.
Looking for thoughts about this as I love lings and hate roaches, too.
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I can back this style up entirely. I've used similar styles to this for a long time. The hydras even play a big role in the late game. With hydras thrown in it kinda becomes like a roach hydra ball with a much better tank (ultras). The only thing i think might be wrong with this build is I think you can delay the bane nest. If you're getting an early lair regardless, you can get a hydra den early and do something similar to the old zenio build. Only build hydras if you need them to defend and hydra ling is pretty good against almost all all-ins zvp
edit: (only 1k masters NA)
edit #2: So i just looked throught the reps and leagues and all that fun stuff (should have done that earlier T_T) but if you want more replays of a pretty similar style i would be happy to get a pack together for you [1k Masters zerg NA.] just pm me if you'd like
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So, in a game I played with a high Diamond Toss (who has beaten Masters Terrans, so he's no scrub like me), I rushed for +2 Baneling Drops before Infestor Tech on Cloud Kingdom. I made this decision after I saw his 8+ Sentries sitting at his base, deciding that with Spines and decent Creep spread, he could only hope to deny my third/fourth. Basically, upgraded Drops raped his mass Sentry/2 Colossus timing push when he FF'd his army into a clump to ward away my Slings. This BO rushes for Hive, but I wonder if there is any bearing to hold on Mass ugraded Slings with Baneling Drops and how it can screw up a push. Of course I go for Infestor tech, but if the push hits before then I at least force him to make good engagements instead of a-moving with FF.
Edit: I'm glad this actually sets up for a 'Bain-rain' strat (my fav!) when defending your 3rd or 4th, as that tends to screw up any Protoss under Masters.
Edit #2: I may consider getting a Hydra Den to help with timing pushes that hit before Drop tech
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Is there any specific time you take your 2-6 gases? Or do you just use a feel for it. I've been trying to go roachless ZvP but don't know when to take my gases if I open with an early 1 gas.
And also is there any time where you would opt for mutas before infestors? Like when you take an early lead or they're going robo? Or just stragiht ling infestor midgame.
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On May 30 2012 00:47 KangaRuthless wrote:
So, in a game I played with a high Diamond Toss (who has beaten Masters Terrans, so he's no scrub like me), I rushed for +2 Baneling Drops before Infestor Tech on Cloud Kingdom. I made this decision after I saw his 8+ Sentries sitting at his base, deciding that with Spines and decent Creep spread, he could only hope to deny my third/fourth. Basically, upgraded Drops raped his mass Sentry/2 Colossus timing push when he FF'd his army into a clump to ward away my Slings. This BO rushes for Hive, but I wonder if there is any bearing to hold on Mass ugraded Slings with Baneling Drops and how it can screw up a push. Of course I go for Infestor tech, but if the push hits before then I at least force him to make good engagements instead of a-moving with FF.
Edit: I'm glad this actually sets up for a 'Bain-rain' strat (my fav!) when defending your 3rd or 4th, as that tends to screw up any Protoss under Masters.
Edit #2: I may consider getting a Hydra Den to help with timing pushes that hit before Drop tech
The only problem with going for ling bane drops with this build is it will definately delay your hive tech. for example, you make just 30 banes (25 gas per) thats already 750 gas (not even considering how much minerals are gone [50 per bling]. Thats almost 4 ultras. What would i propose to fix this? while aiming for the late game you just keep a bunch of lings ready to be turned into banes in case of a big collosus push.
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On May 30 2012 00:49 PieTaster wrote:
Is there any specific time you take your 2-6 gases? Or do you just use a feel for it. I've been trying to go roachless ZvP but don't know when to take my gases if I open with an early 1 gas.
And also is there any time where you would opt for mutas before infestors? Like when you take an early lead or they're going robo? Or just stragiht ling infestor midgame.
when i do this build i'll sometimes go right into mutas instead of going for late game if i see a big collosus type push or any other heavy robo. when you do this, though, you may find yourself having to base trade a lot since ling muta is extremely mobile but it lacks that power. So if you do opt for spire, just spine up and don't ever take a fight that you don't think you can win
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Is anyone still using this style ? I'd really like to try it, seems very fun :D
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I'm playing it from time to time, but I suck. (diamond at best in WoL) Holding immortal pushes on my level is not that hard, but it's really difficult to find a safe transition into a lategame army. I prefer broodlords over ultras, because with ultras you just get steamrolled by normal three-base pushes, unless you manage to get a perfect surround with the cheap stuff. the style is very fun to play, but too vulnerable to certain protoss builds. (at least that's my feeling)
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I feel like a ling heavy style in general is something that has not been explored that much yet, and sounds very fun.
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I used it for awhile back but the problem with it is you can't really engage a protoss deathball with it... whether the toss goes collosi or storm, lings just die so quickly.
However, in HOTS I have found it to be working again because of a lot of recent toss air strategies which can't stop mass ling/bling. It's hard to tell in HOTS right now because so many people are just trying crazy stuff and noone knows what works yet.
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EPT
