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On May 12 2012 07:50 zeeQue wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 01:43 Aterons_toss wrote:
Im sorry to say but at the "core" this is a pure style, its been played most notably by DRG about half an year ago and its simply bad, no roach can make you much more vulnerable to some timings and your late game army is quite frankly worse than broodlord infestor by about 10 times, and even if its pretty mobile its still limited at 2.5 speed and can't siege.
It might be better against tosses hard countering roach play and that can be so even only cuz its much harder to split + ff against ling than it is to ff and a move vs roaches.
So i guess... yeah, it might be funnier to play for some people, have fun playing it i guess. I don't think you're looking at the bigger picture with this. In a BO-X series using this in the first game would be a mind fuck, I've seen it plenty of times, I have 3 styles ZvP and utilise all of them when in tournament play and on ladder it could work one day and not the other but I've seen a lot of Ps not be able to handle this, they panic half the time and start throwing random compositions at you. It's a fun style that I think people need to try and perfect.
Well, that's pretty much what i said, good for diversity at a non pro level.
I never argued against it, i just said that it will never work at the highest level since pro tosses have know how to react to it.
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This style was popular like ~1year ago ..
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You'd be surprised at what a ling/infestor/bling/ultra composition can roll through.
I had a game I thought was easily lost... toss had just killed my 4th and 5th bases, and I was mining on 2 bases. I thought, "whelp, better max on what I can and try to kill his army." I had 4 ultras, 5 infestors, and the rest was ling/bling. I completely demolished his stalker/collosus/sentry/zealot/immortal army with just a basic flank.
Ultra/bane really packs a punch against toss.
This style is also super-fun. I actually will get slightly faster upgrades (start them before lair, and then start lair immediately afterwards).
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You should still make a roach warren even if you aren't planning on making roaches in case you need them. Ling/bling is mainly about the protoss fucking up, not about how well you do honestly. In order to hold alot of timings you are still going to want a few roaches just in case. The good thing about roaches is they produce faster and tend to do better in small number than banelings, especially against +1 zealot timings. Late game infestor, ultra, baneling is far easier to deal with than Broodlord, infestor, corruptor. Good sim city and micro tends to shut down this style pretty well.
The composition is great against standard blink stalker, sentry, colossus, but if toss realizes what is going on and switches to archon, immotral, HT, chargelot....you're gonna have a bad time.
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How do you hold 2 base all ins without roaches?
edit: most notably those scary +1 zealot timings with ~4 warp gates
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Wasn´t this style really popular last year?
With banedrops to deal with FFs?
I dunno why avoid Roaches, they are pretty useful to hold off some timmings and its not like you have to commit to Roaches. Although I guess Banes and Lings could hold some timmings if you have a good creep spread.
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not gonna lie, i kinda dont like when ppl name a build after themselves or something as if they were the sole creator of it, but u did make a thread on it so its cool and i wont complain about it.
ive been experimenting with a similiar ling, bane, ultra style with lots of success in ZvP for nearly a year now.
i loved it because i hated how immobile BL/infestors were. its a very flexible style and if u mix in bane rain with it it is devastating even to a death ball.
it requires micro, but the number of drops u can do with the build is great. u can even add in nydus play with the build which all goes back to how flexible the build is. u can do almost anything with it and the swarm factor is huge as was already noted.
but all that being said, this style is basically just something that spawns from a bane rain style. if u were a player that used bane drops alot then this style should be fairly easy for you as it is the same concept with the main difference being how aggressive ur lings are.
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Getting Overlord Drops is the only style available to all three races that allows you to throw pure minerals at your opponent trying to throw them off / do damage (Overlords + Zerglings).
I think this is a much underused tactic. So instead of saying "hey, I got a LOT of minerals, might as well build a ton of spines" you can likewise say "hey, I got a lot of minerals, might as well throw 5 OLs full of Zerglings in his base".
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^ Warp prism + zealot doesn't cost any minerals.
I tried to make overlord drop + ling work for a long time in all 3 match-ups. It just doesn't really work. Protoss and Terran tend to be defensive against Zerg, so trying to harass someone who's turtling isn't really a good idea (mutas are a little different, they are half decent as combat units due to dps, and are really really good at harass). They tend to have cannons/turrets up, not to mention their entire army isn't far. Against Toss, they can just warp in a zealot or two (if the cannons they had that they make in anticipation of mutas isn't enough), and terran usually has a stream of rax by that point of the game.
Just running by with lings tends to work more often, and does more damage.
Ultra/bane/infestor can tear through any toss army (except maybe mass carrier), but the problem is that it's extreme cost inefficient, while P can basically make zealots for free to deal with both banes and ultras very cost efficiently. The problem in ZvP isn't getting bases as zerg, it's getting tech to deal with what they have, in time (mutas/infestors vs stalker/immortals/sentry deathball, bl vs colossi, speed roach vs sentry/immortal or blink).
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On May 14 2012 19:51 Belial88 wrote:
^ Warp prism + zealot doesn't cost any minerals.
I tried to make overlord drop + ling work for a long time in all 3 match-ups. It just doesn't really work. Protoss and Terran tend to be defensive against Zerg, so trying to harass someone who's turtling isn't really a good idea (mutas are a little different, they are half decent as combat units due to dps, and are really really good at harass). They tend to have cannons/turrets up, not to mention their entire army isn't far. Against Toss, they can just warp in a zealot or two (if the cannons they had that they make in anticipation of mutas isn't enough), and terran usually has a stream of rax by that point of the game.
Just running by with lings tends to work more often, and does more damage.
Ultra/bane/infestor can tear through any toss army (except maybe mass carrier), but the problem is that it's extreme cost inefficient, while P can basically make zealots for free to deal with both banes and ultras very cost efficiently. The problem in ZvP isn't getting bases as zerg, it's getting tech to deal with what they have, in time (mutas/infestors vs stalker/immortals/sentry deathball, bl vs colossi, speed roach vs sentry/immortal or blink).
That couldn't be farther from the truth
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Warp prism does cost gas and the probability of losing a warp prism (and, more importantly, robo build time) is pretty high.
OL drops is not to do harrassment when he's sitting in his base, obviously. It's harrassing midfight, when he's moving out or when you are poking at the front.
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This looks fucking fun as shit. I'm so excited, I can't believe I haven't seen this before. Thanks!
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Alright, so I just saw this thread and let me just say...WELCOME MY BROTHER! This is the unit composition that will replace infestor/blord in zvt and zvp, I'm sure of it. It's so easy to max out and take a new base with every push. Even if they don't just roll over and die right away you'll still kill their army and remax immediately. I don't think drops are worth it unless you're on 5+ bases worth of gas(this is theorycraft, because I haven't used this in zvp, I do use that in zvt though) My question is this. A typical protoss 2 base timing is about 9 minutes now. Do you just defend that with ling/bane? Do you have baneling speed?
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reminds me of dimaga who uses baneling rainbomb just in case of sentries heavy gateway push
then goes for a ultra ling baneling infestor push.
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Hi, I'm a master Zerg player myself who strives for this sorta build, but with my own additions.
A few comments/questions on the build(s):
- Is the early bane nest for just doing something against +1 zeals 4gate timing or is it to play a mindgame if he scouts it?
- How well do you do against a FFE double robo colo production? I think that will hit before your ultra's for sure
- Same questions but then with Stoms and some 2base allin variation of it?
- How do you feel about adding Blords in the endgame mix? They're great for supporting and sieges. 
- Since you're sort of rushing for Ultra's you can, if your injects are perfect, don't even make a macro hatch. Just a faster 4th.
- Why do most tosses go gate expo in your replays? The FFE game i think he could've killed you but then backed off to secure his 3rd
- And what do the tosses in your replays have against a FFE +1 zealot 4 gate timing? xD
- Seems you really like your 3 macro hatches 
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i play this style alot and i do an early evo to keep up with toss upgrades. i take drones off gas @ 100 (for ling speed), for that extra income for expo, then put back on gas asap -> plop evo at 80 gas and it will finish by the time 150gas comes around for armor upgrade.
also, depending on the aggressiveness of my opponent, sometimes i will start 2base roach, but do melee ups, and transition into ultra ling at hive.
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Hi again
I've been working around this build lately,
what I found:
I do not know yet if the bane nest is enough for holding pushes between 7:00- 8:00 min mark (the build is very weak at this point), you could always scout absence of gas in the natural and build a 6:30 roach warren if you think pressure is coming.
There is the chance to bane bust allin the toss if you see he is being very gas greedy (no sentries), usually when trying to go stargate + zealots.
what is cool: lately toss try to go fast robo instead of 2 base with a lot of gates allin (at least in my league (diamond) in EU).
You really need the drops to delay the toss until ultralisks or at least deal with forcefields befor ultras.
and here, my contribution:
if you go double gas you can afford upgrades before lair so they go smoother, check the 16 min mark:
here is my build in sc2planner (not refined yet) if you can improve it I would be very glad:
this is ideal of course and any pressure should make you react and delay everything.
sc2planner build
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omg how did I never notice this thread before? I hate both roaches and brood lords SO much and would cut off my left nut to be able to play all ZvX matchups without making either of those units. I am going to be trying this out tonight on ladder, can't wait to see how it goes!
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You are only a platinum player? This sounds awesome and the theory is there. Time for execution. <3 Sauron Zerg.
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On May 14 2012 20:08 Moosegills wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 19:51 Belial88 wrote:
^ Warp prism + zealot doesn't cost any minerals.
I tried to make overlord drop + ling work for a long time in all 3 match-ups. It just doesn't really work. Protoss and Terran tend to be defensive against Zerg, so trying to harass someone who's turtling isn't really a good idea (mutas are a little different, they are half decent as combat units due to dps, and are really really good at harass). They tend to have cannons/turrets up, not to mention their entire army isn't far. Against Toss, they can just warp in a zealot or two (if the cannons they had that they make in anticipation of mutas isn't enough), and terran usually has a stream of rax by that point of the game.
Just running by with lings tends to work more often, and does more damage.
Ultra/bane/infestor can tear through any toss army (except maybe mass carrier), but the problem is that it's extreme cost inefficient, while P can basically make zealots for free to deal with both banes and ultras very cost efficiently. The problem in ZvP isn't getting bases as zerg, it's getting tech to deal with what they have, in time (mutas/infestors vs stalker/immortals/sentry deathball, bl vs colossi, speed roach vs sentry/immortal or blink). That couldn't be farther from the truth
Thanks for the quality post. Care to explain why you think a mineral only unit on 3+ base toss isn't free or how 5 (or 6? i think 5) zealots killing ultras isn't cost efficient?
Warp prism does cost gas and the probability of losing a warp prism (and, more importantly, robo build time) is pretty high.
warp prism is 200 minerals o_o
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EPT
