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On May 18 2012 23:10 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 20:08 Moosegills wrote:On May 14 2012 19:51 Belial88 wrote:
^ Warp prism + zealot doesn't cost any minerals.
I tried to make overlord drop + ling work for a long time in all 3 match-ups. It just doesn't really work. Protoss and Terran tend to be defensive against Zerg, so trying to harass someone who's turtling isn't really a good idea (mutas are a little different, they are half decent as combat units due to dps, and are really really good at harass). They tend to have cannons/turrets up, not to mention their entire army isn't far. Against Toss, they can just warp in a zealot or two (if the cannons they had that they make in anticipation of mutas isn't enough), and terran usually has a stream of rax by that point of the game.
Just running by with lings tends to work more often, and does more damage.
Ultra/bane/infestor can tear through any toss army (except maybe mass carrier), but the problem is that it's extreme cost inefficient, while P can basically make zealots for free to deal with both banes and ultras very cost efficiently. The problem in ZvP isn't getting bases as zerg, it's getting tech to deal with what they have, in time (mutas/infestors vs stalker/immortals/sentry deathball, bl vs colossi, speed roach vs sentry/immortal or blink). That couldn't be farther from the truth Thanks for the quality post. Care to explain why you think a mineral only unit on 3+ base toss isn't free or how 5 (or 6? i think 5) zealots killing ultras isn't cost efficient? Show nested quote +Warp prism does cost gas and the probability of losing a warp prism (and, more importantly, robo build time) is pretty high. warp prism is 200 minerals o_o
Quality of the post lol. You said that zealots deal with banelings cost effectively. What more can I say then you are flat out wrong.
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Can you be a little more specific? People tend to agree that zealots handle banelings pretty well, unless you are going by blizzards unit X counters unit Y sheet, or in odd situations. In a real game, zealots tend to deal with banelings very well. It takes what, 5 banelings to kill a zealot i believe? If you have them all clumped up, you may have a problem, but in general zealots are very cost efficient against banelings. Considering they only cost minerals, and in lategame, toss can basically get zealots for 'free' in the sense that minerals is not a limiting factor for them at all, much like for zerg, trading zealots for gas is a great trade, especially when it's extremely cost inefficient trade at that.
I mean I wrote a guide very, very much like this one about a year ago. Zealots countering both my banelings and ultras were my biggest problem, especially after a big battle I won, toss would warp in a ton of zealots at home and that would be all it takes to end my counterattack, and thent he game would go on for another 5-10 minutes when it should have just been ended if i just went roaches or something else.
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ultralisks should stun block units that are in its splash.
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I'm not really sure what you mean when you say "people tend to agree". From my personal experience at top master/gm level on NA, there has almost never been a time where i didn't think my banelings traded cost inefficiently.
I go ling bane drop infestor nearly every game vs protoss (with it being my best match up) and i literally smile at my desk when i see someone make a significant amount of zealots vs me (excluding a 4 gate zealot pressure).
Unless a person has the micro capability to zealot split vs banes, i really don't see how they couldn't be cost effective. It doesn't matter that the zealots are minerals and you consider them "free" they still take up a supply portion of their army and are utterly useless when banelings are in the equation.
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im talking about lategame. Toss don't really need to split them as much like T does. If you attack, he just warps them in warp out. With sentries and storms in their army as well, they can make the zealots efficiently deal with the zealots. Unless its mass zealot vs mass banelings, its hard to trade better. Toss with a couple spread out zealots will definiltely take more than 2 banelings per zealot.
free as in zerglings are 'free' in lategame for zerg.
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I've been doing a build like this in zvp and I love it too, I don't know if you said this in there but I didn't see it, is that to counter the ultralisks and zerglings the protoss is going to go HT into Archon, get a lot of infestors and neural parasite them, if my infesters are able to get in there and neural, his army just gets stomped on completely. The macro advantage just adds insult to injury. Although I don't really think banelings are necessary, the gas can go towards more ultras/infestors. Of course I'm only in platinum right now so higher level players may be able to kill all the infestors before they can get in range.
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Were you able to get some more replays against decent opponents?
Your practice toss partner has like 33 probes at 10:00 or something... but that's where toss gets you I guess. These also were 3gate expands without pressure while letting you do your thing, which is of course ridiculous, the sole reason for a 3gate expo IS to put up pressure.
Looking for thoughts about this as I love lings and hate roaches, too.
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I can back this style up entirely. I've used similar styles to this for a long time. The hydras even play a big role in the late game. With hydras thrown in it kinda becomes like a roach hydra ball with a much better tank (ultras). The only thing i think might be wrong with this build is I think you can delay the bane nest. If you're getting an early lair regardless, you can get a hydra den early and do something similar to the old zenio build. Only build hydras if you need them to defend and hydra ling is pretty good against almost all all-ins zvp
edit: (only 1k masters NA)
edit #2: So i just looked throught the reps and leagues and all that fun stuff (should have done that earlier T_T) but if you want more replays of a pretty similar style i would be happy to get a pack together for you [1k Masters zerg NA.] just pm me if you'd like
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So, in a game I played with a high Diamond Toss (who has beaten Masters Terrans, so he's no scrub like me), I rushed for +2 Baneling Drops before Infestor Tech on Cloud Kingdom. I made this decision after I saw his 8+ Sentries sitting at his base, deciding that with Spines and decent Creep spread, he could only hope to deny my third/fourth. Basically, upgraded Drops raped his mass Sentry/2 Colossus timing push when he FF'd his army into a clump to ward away my Slings. This BO rushes for Hive, but I wonder if there is any bearing to hold on Mass ugraded Slings with Baneling Drops and how it can screw up a push. Of course I go for Infestor tech, but if the push hits before then I at least force him to make good engagements instead of a-moving with FF.
Edit: I'm glad this actually sets up for a 'Bain-rain' strat (my fav!) when defending your 3rd or 4th, as that tends to screw up any Protoss under Masters.
Edit #2: I may consider getting a Hydra Den to help with timing pushes that hit before Drop tech
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Is there any specific time you take your 2-6 gases? Or do you just use a feel for it. I've been trying to go roachless ZvP but don't know when to take my gases if I open with an early 1 gas.
And also is there any time where you would opt for mutas before infestors? Like when you take an early lead or they're going robo? Or just stragiht ling infestor midgame.
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On May 30 2012 00:47 KangaRuthless wrote:
So, in a game I played with a high Diamond Toss (who has beaten Masters Terrans, so he's no scrub like me), I rushed for +2 Baneling Drops before Infestor Tech on Cloud Kingdom. I made this decision after I saw his 8+ Sentries sitting at his base, deciding that with Spines and decent Creep spread, he could only hope to deny my third/fourth. Basically, upgraded Drops raped his mass Sentry/2 Colossus timing push when he FF'd his army into a clump to ward away my Slings. This BO rushes for Hive, but I wonder if there is any bearing to hold on Mass ugraded Slings with Baneling Drops and how it can screw up a push. Of course I go for Infestor tech, but if the push hits before then I at least force him to make good engagements instead of a-moving with FF.
Edit: I'm glad this actually sets up for a 'Bain-rain' strat (my fav!) when defending your 3rd or 4th, as that tends to screw up any Protoss under Masters.
Edit #2: I may consider getting a Hydra Den to help with timing pushes that hit before Drop tech
The only problem with going for ling bane drops with this build is it will definately delay your hive tech. for example, you make just 30 banes (25 gas per) thats already 750 gas (not even considering how much minerals are gone [50 per bling]. Thats almost 4 ultras. What would i propose to fix this? while aiming for the late game you just keep a bunch of lings ready to be turned into banes in case of a big collosus push.
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On May 30 2012 00:49 PieTaster wrote:
Is there any specific time you take your 2-6 gases? Or do you just use a feel for it. I've been trying to go roachless ZvP but don't know when to take my gases if I open with an early 1 gas.
And also is there any time where you would opt for mutas before infestors? Like when you take an early lead or they're going robo? Or just stragiht ling infestor midgame.
when i do this build i'll sometimes go right into mutas instead of going for late game if i see a big collosus type push or any other heavy robo. when you do this, though, you may find yourself having to base trade a lot since ling muta is extremely mobile but it lacks that power. So if you do opt for spire, just spine up and don't ever take a fight that you don't think you can win
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Is anyone still using this style ? I'd really like to try it, seems very fun :D
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I'm playing it from time to time, but I suck. (diamond at best in WoL) Holding immortal pushes on my level is not that hard, but it's really difficult to find a safe transition into a lategame army. I prefer broodlords over ultras, because with ultras you just get steamrolled by normal three-base pushes, unless you manage to get a perfect surround with the cheap stuff. the style is very fun to play, but too vulnerable to certain protoss builds. (at least that's my feeling)
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I feel like a ling heavy style in general is something that has not been explored that much yet, and sounds very fun.
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I used it for awhile back but the problem with it is you can't really engage a protoss deathball with it... whether the toss goes collosi or storm, lings just die so quickly.
However, in HOTS I have found it to be working again because of a lot of recent toss air strategies which can't stop mass ling/bling. It's hard to tell in HOTS right now because so many people are just trying crazy stuff and noone knows what works yet.
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EPT
