• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:40
CEST 11:40
KST 18:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four0BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3
StarCraft 2
General
herO joins T1 Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four The New Patch Killed Mech! TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada
Tourneys
INu's Battles #13 - ByuN vs Zoun Tenacious Turtle Tussle SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
BSL Season 21 BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW caster Sayle BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B Azhi's Colosseum - Anonymous Tournament [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Relatively freeroll strategies Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1642 users

[M] (2) Redstone Bluffs

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-06 22:37:17
March 29 2012 08:27 GMT
#1
New Version
[image loading]
No longer published

Old Version
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



I would like to get some feedback on this map. There is still work to be done. I am trying something that is not the usual. The goal for this map was to have more dynamic expansion paths. I didn't want the order in which you take the bases to be cut and dry. I wanted it to be strategy dependent (i.e. aggressive vs. passive) and dependent on the expansion path of your opponent.

I would also like to respond to the post immediately after the OP that the main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke being a problem. My intention for this map was to make so that the main choke, backdoor, natural, and third were not as clearly defined. The goal was to create more factors you need to pay attention to when expanding and defending. If there are commandments of starcraft map design that I am breaking then I would like to know. I can then pull it back a little to make it a worthy map. But to say the main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke, therefore BROKEN, is not seeing the map for what it is trying to be.

If players expand as shown here.
[image loading]

and they push up the lane depicted there. I am trying to look at it as a player pushing from their natural to their opponents natural. In that case then the distance is about the same as pushing from natural to natural on close-air positions on metalopolis. (From the analyzer the distance is 112. Metalopolis is 110 or 116 depending on whether it is top or bottom) But here there are rocks to slow them down in the early game and a defensible high ground. There is some sentiment around that gameplay is stale and FRB is the way to go. That may be true but I am trying introduce some interesting dynamics while still working under the current paradigm? Are there any thoughts on this?

If you see any issues and have ideas about how to address them while maintaining my goal for this map I would like to hear them.

Analyzer stuff
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]


Screenshots
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

[image loading]

Sea_Food
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Finland1612 Posts
March 29 2012 09:22 GMT
#2
First off
Poll: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke.

Maps with this are basicly unplayable. (27)
 
44%

Okay, but in special circumstances. (14)
 
23%

A bad feature that makes the map worse by default. (9)
 
15%

A compleatly fine map feature. (8)
 
13%

Fine map feature, but only if backdoor is blocked by rocks or other (3)
 
5%

61 total votes

Your vote: Main choke to main backdoor is shorter than main choke to main choke.

(Vote): A compleatly fine map feature.
(Vote): Fine map feature, but only if backdoor is blocked by rocks or other
(Vote): Okay, but in special circumstances.
(Vote): A bad feature that makes the map worse by default.
(Vote): Maps with this are basicly unplayable.


You should make the path to backdoor much longer from enemy main choke.

Also the area in front of the third base seems way too open to me.
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
March 29 2012 12:51 GMT
#3
That poll lacks participation. Maps are not per se unplayable. The backdoor just needs to be easy to defend. Place a watchtower overlooking the attack routes to the backdoor which is easy to take for the defender. Put the whole backdoor on a highground connected to the main.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-30 22:15:39
March 29 2012 13:45 GMT
#4
On March 29 2012 18:22 Sea_Food wrote:

You should make the path to backdoor much longer from enemy main choke.

Also the area in front of the third base seems way too open to me.


Although your first point may be true, I'm not certain that it is necessarily the case. It seems as though you are basing this on a very general principle that I am not sure is true. Sure the backdoor on Blistering Sands didn't work but there are several features about this one that make this backdoor different from that map. If you can give some specific reasons why it doesn't work on this map and how it can be addressed I would like to hear them.

As to your second point it is 12 squares wide. I didn't want to make it possible to FFE wall off that front and take an easy three bases. Perhaps 10 wide would be better. That is an easy fix if it is an issue. EDIT (Changed in new version. It is now a triple wide ramp.)
Aunvilgod
Profile Joined December 2011
2653 Posts
March 29 2012 19:41 GMT
#5
The third is fine in my opinion. You could move the mineral line to make a Xel-Naga caverns style FFE possible if it is not already.
ilovegroov | Blizzards mapmaker(s?) suck ass | #1 Protoss hater
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
March 30 2012 17:12 GMT
#6
I can tell you enlarged the destructible rocks into the backdoor expansion. This doesn't affect anything. If you test it, I'm willing to bet units can still go through them.
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
March 30 2012 21:26 GMT
#7
On March 31 2012 02:12 IronManSC wrote:
I can tell you enlarged the destructible rocks into the backdoor expansion. This doesn't affect anything. If you test it, I'm willing to bet units can still go through them.


You are correct about them being enlarged. You are almost right about it not affecting anything. It affects the visuals. It blocked the ramp before it was enlarged, it just looked like it wasn't big enough like there was space to get through. I enlarged it so it looked like it filled the space. As it is now there is no way through besides destroying them
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
March 31 2012 00:48 GMT
#8
Very interesting. How would you defend 4 bases? When your opponent has 4 bases, he can push through your backdoor and attack your 4th at the same time and you wouldn't be able to anything about it if you took the corner base, and if you took the center base, you'd be exposed to a lot of runbys if you didn't protect your 4th.
And the destructible rocks are fine ^_^
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-31 02:54:12
March 31 2012 02:43 GMT
#9
On March 31 2012 09:48 TehTemplar wrote:
Very interesting. How would you defend 4 bases? When your opponent has 4 bases, he can push through your backdoor and attack your 4th at the same time and you wouldn't be able to anything about it if you took the corner base, and if you took the center base, you'd be exposed to a lot of runbys if you didn't protect your 4th.
And the destructible rocks are fine ^_^


I didn't quite follow what you were saying. Let me try to exhibit some 4 base vs. 4 base scenarios and see if that answers your question. Open the spoiler to see the visual exposition.

I am assuming you are the player at 4 o'clock and the opponent is at 10. Hence the U and and O. I think in most scenarios you should be able to position your army near the orange dot and take an appropiate 4th depending on the 4th your oppoenent takes. If your opponent has the blue base as his 4th then take your corresponding blue base. If he takes the purple base then I would suggest taking your green base. Finally if he takes the green base then take your purple base. Knowledge of your opponent's army movements is critical and creating walls to hinder run-bys is also probably necessary

This is how I drew it up in my head. There most likely are necessary tweaks.

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-06 22:38:04
March 31 2012 23:45 GMT
#10
I take the lack of responses means no one likes the map. Re-work in progress.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 21m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
OGKoka 226
SortOf 142
Reynor 127
StarCraft: Brood War
Zeus 1284
firebathero 871
Bisu 714
Killer 501
Larva 408
TY 373
actioN 280
PianO 162
hero 126
Soma 116
[ Show more ]
Rush 65
EffOrt 55
Aegong 49
Stork 48
Pusan 47
yabsab 38
Sharp 29
soO 27
Shine 27
Mong 20
Bale 19
Sacsri 19
ggaemo 17
Noble 16
sorry 13
Dota 2
XaKoH 416
XcaliburYe243
League of Legends
JimRising 517
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1749
shoxiejesuss980
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King96
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor159
Other Games
summit1g12227
ceh9596
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 36
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• HappyZerGling128
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
21m
INu's Battles
1h 21m
ByuN vs Zoun
Monday Night Weeklies
6h 21m
Replay Cast
13h 21m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 1h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 4h
PiGosaur Monday
1d 14h
Replay Cast
2 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Online Event
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.