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Introduction:
Hi, iam dNa, a Diamond EU and NA Terran, and i wanted to share my ladder build for TvP with you guys, seeing as many Terrans on my level have a problem with TvP.
This build is designed to be safe against almost anything, while giving you the opportunity to do a great deal of damage with a Timingattack and give you an economic lead.
I know it can be used in the range from high platinum to master league, not sure about lower leagues, since there is a bluff involved, which relies on your opponent knowing the metagame (knowing what a 1-1-1 is).
Buildorder (Disclaimer: this buildorder is not supply-centric, but instead gives you other timings):
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10 - supplydepot (at your ramp)
12 - rax (at your ramp)
14 - gas (put 2 scvs in gas if unscouted, 3 if scouted, take one out again as soon as the probe dies)
16 - orbital
18 - supplydepot
lift rax after 2 marines, build a bunker to recomplete the walloff, build a reactor with the rax
as the reactor is building, start a CC as soon as you have money and 2 additional rax outside of the vision from the ramp
add another supplydepot as soon as you have minerals
put the scv that built your first additional rax into the gas, start a techlab immediately upon the first rax finishing
use the scv that built the last supplydepot to build an engineering bay
the techlab and the engineering bay should finish roughly at the same time, you still build only marines from the rax, start stimpack and +1 Attack. after that start building supplydepots as you need them
as soon as you hit ~65 gas again, build a techlab at the 2nd rax, start combatshield as soon as it finishes, after that you can start building marauders
when you did everything correctly, Stim, +1 Attack and Combat shield should finish almost at the same point arround 10 minutes, at which point you start to move out and start concussive shells.
this attack should at least kill a good portion of his army, if everything works out good you can even kill the expansion of the Protoss.
while the attack is on the way, start a CC and 4 additional rax, take the 3 gasses and start a factory as well as +1 armor.
Start the armory and the starport as soon as the factory finishes, build a factory on the reactor at the same time.
Scouting:
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rally your 13th scv to scout arround.
You want to scout the gases in the base of the protoss, then leave immediately and try to hide the scv near your opponent's natural. if he finds it, try again with the scv that built the bunker. (with this SCV avoid the watchtower, as his stalker should be on the way to your base to scout arround that timing)
If that doesn't work either, you will have 2 scans available to you as soon as your 2nd orbital finishes. Use one scan on your opponent's natural, and if he has not expanded yet, use the 2nd one in his main.
As soon as you see the expansion (with either your scv or the scan) you are fine, and can use the energy for mules instead, which will greatly reduce the danger of supplyblocks, since this build is very tight mineralwise.
The expansion timing:
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you float your orbital down as soon as you see his expansion, seeing as the small ramp leading into your main is almost always better to defend than the entrance to your natural against one base play, also you will be ahead due to the 2 mules incomewise.
If you feel particularly sneaky you can float it down after you see his observer, which should be a bit later than his expo with the most standard builds protoss throws at you, which means less time for him to react what you really are doing.
Using the Scouted information correctly:
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if you see an expansion your attack will most likely work.
The only exception are certain colossus-before-expansion builds that may crush your army, so scan before stimming into his natural.
If he has one Colossus and enough sentries to cut your army in half, don't rush in, instead set up your army in a concave arround his natural entrance and use that as the way to set up your 3rd.
Make sure you start the factory and get the gasses before the 3rd, if you feel particularly unsave about mass colossi you should maybe build 2 starports after the factory finishes up.
if you do not see an expansion, you scan his main.
Also you should send 3-4 scvs to your bunker and put on autorepair, don't worry, this will not put you far behind income wise, since you still have more scvs than he has probes.
A robo and one gas, with 3 or more gates might be a warpprism timing, be sure you have vision arround your base, focus down the warpprism before anything else.
a stargate: voidrays! urgh! scout arround the edges of your base for pylons, make sure a pylon does not get up! make sure to not lose too many marines.
a twilight council might be either a blink rush (will most likely have a robo as well), or maybe a darktemplar build.
Blink : if you had your scv at his natural you should have 1 scan available to you, save it and use it to kill the obs as soon as you see it, scout arround the edges of your main for pylons as well.
dark templar: get a turret at your front (duh).
Why this works:
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the bunker at your ramp and the early gas tell your opponent that a 1-1-1 might be coming, so there will likely not many sentries to forcefield you like with a normal stim timing.
Also he will start a robo because he needs to know what's up, furthermore the bunker keeps you save against the most 1base all ins (see "using scouted information correctly" above).
The timing hits arround 10 minutes, at which point most protosses don't have a really large army, most likely nothing that can kill off your push easily without the help of many forcefields, which he won't have.
Also it gets rid of some supply of yours, so you won't have to build supplydepots at that point, which helps you getting up the 3 base production in a very short time.
This build is not tech heavy, but will most likely give you a great economical- and upgrade advantage, designed to win TvPs without the hassle of trying to hit perfect EMPs, you can of course add ghost tech if you feel like it, but as you can see in the replays, you are not relying on EMPs to win the game.
Replays:
http://drop.sc/163329
http://drop.sc/163333
http://drop.sc/163607
edits:
revamped scouttiming
added more recent replays (build still works like a charm! <3)
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also he will start a robo because he needs to know what's up, Furthermore the Bunker keeps you save against the most 1base all ins (see "using scouted information correctly" above).
The Timing hits arround 10 minutes
Surely he'll know what you're up to by then because of observers, and he'll just make sentries?
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On February 03 2012 23:33 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +also he will start a robo because he needs to know what's up, Furthermore the Bunker keeps you save against the most 1base all ins (see "using scouted information correctly" above).
The Timing hits arround 10 minutes Surely he'll know what you're up to by then because of observers, and he'll just make sentries?
when he makes sentries at the point where he scouts what iam up to, he cannot be sure to have enough energy to use forcefields efficiently, also I found that most people will go down the tech route once their expansion is up, instead of "wasting" (in quotation marks since it would be a good response to what iam doing) their gas on more sentries.
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yes, yes that could have been me, I played a protoss in a playhem on that map recently ^.^
btw does anyone know how to change the topic name? i forgot to put the [G] in front T.T
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Italy12246 Posts
You have to ask the mods, send a pm.
That said, im not a big fan of the build because it kinda relies on your opponent screwing up, but i guess it's nice to have in a BoX series. When do you float your cc to the low ground?
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On February 04 2012 00:09 Teoita wrote:
That said, im not a big fan of the build because it kinda relies on your opponent screwing up, but i guess it's nice to have in a BoX series. When do you float your cc to the low ground?
well it's not really an all-innish build in any way, if the opponent doesn't fall for it and calls the bluff or simply doesn't read the signs for a 1-1-1 i throw him correctly, it's not like he autowins, it's just that my attack doesn't work as well, maybe it won't happen at all, in any case you will have enough army supply to protect a 3rd you start at the 11 minute mark, which not many builds can grant you.
also thanks for the Question, i meant to put it in there, but i guess i forgot:
you float your orbital down as soon as you see his expansion, seeing as the small ramp leading into your main is almost always better to defend than the entrance to your natural against one base play, also you will be ahead due to the 2 mules incomewise. If you feel particularly sneaky you can float it down after you see his observer, which should be a bit later than his expo with the most standard builds protoss throws at you, which means less time for him to react what you really are doing.
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okay, so i kinda changed the scouting timing a bit, in order to accomidate for the bigger maps.
also added new replays...
btw as i hear alot of terrans do still have problems in TvP ^.^ just give this build a try, should work from gold-masters
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I am one of those Terrans that has been struggling TvP and have been looking for a nice 2Base timing attack that if done correctly has a high percentage chance of putting you well ahead. I will watch the replays and then test the build on the ladder, hope it works!!
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More terrans should abuse the protoss inability to scouting without just guessing from looking at your 3 structures at the ramp and if you have an expo. I really like what you did there.
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I've just started using this today (as compared to my lame variety of 1/1/1's beforehand). while my mechanics aren't up to par, I can definitely tell this f's with their heads :D
need to do this build up to 3 bases sp a couple more times then learn how/when to scout and I think tvp might be my strongest matchup now. thanks for typign this up, its a great strat
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On February 03 2012 23:58 Sated wrote:
Basically, your "Why This Works" section is spot on: Because of what I scouted I started gearing up for a 111 all-in, which meant that I rushed out my Robo and other infrastructure. This in turn meant that I'd cut a couple of units, with the aim being to have 5 Gateways and a Robo churning out units around the 8-9 minute mark (which would normally be in time to get enough stuff to crush a 111). This push obviously hits earlier than a 111, so although my first Observer spotted that it was coming, I didn't have enough units out to defend long enough to get any advantage out of my infrastructure. It also didn't help that two of my Stalkers were hanging out in my main mineral line...
In any case, a good build if the opponent falls for it.
If you read his post, he says he moves out around 10 minute, 1/1/1 hits moves out between 7.30 and 8.10 depending if you add a raven or not. So in fact his opening is later, and though i like the idea, i don´t like its being so late. At 10.00 tvp i´ve usually already made a double stimdrop, 1+1+ finished and 3rd building or finished.
@OP I like the idea of faking a 1/1/1, but your push is way too late and your tech is too slow - at 10 minute you should run into either colossi or templars with storm done on 2 bases with observer having scouted your base for 4 minutes already.
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On April 20 2012 02:42 Belial154 wrote:
I am one of those Terrans that has been struggling TvP and have been looking for a nice 2Base timing attack that if done correctly has a high percentage chance of putting you well ahead.
Try Grobyc's 3Rax (2 reactor 1 TL) or even Thorzain's famous TvT build. I almost completely ditched Marauders in the early and midgame vs. Toss and am DEMOLISHING at my level (Dia EU).
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After watching the replay vs sweethydra, I just don't see it supporting your claims. Also, the level at which you're playin is a bit off - nowhere near high-diamond to master, but rather high plat, on average (based on opponents met).
Questions / facts:
- for the three replays that you provided the level is gold to low diamond; why claim it's good vs master?
- you say it gives you an economic lead but at the timing you aim for (~10min) you have equal army supply and equal worker supply.
- great deal of damage done to opponent-> no, you killed just a few units. No damage to production / economy.
- he has no army to kill you with -> actually, had he focused on making units more, your alreadystimmed marine-marauder with no medivac support would've melted to sentry/zealot/immortal with guardian shield.
- he has no map awareness, he does nothing vs drops (he had templar tech / charge).
- in the fight at his third he has a terribad position. No FF, zealots caught in the middle, no gshield, random storms. Army sizes were roughly equal and he had the tech advantage. You had some useless vikings taking up supply.
- he stopped probe production after ~50 (even tho he had a third up);
Overall, you won because you were just better at pretty much everything. I would assume you would've won regardless of the build used, based on his performance, especially after taking his third.
Theorycrafting: preparing for a 111 assumes scouting and figuring out what type of 111 you're doing. And pumping units out of 3 gates 1 robo / 2 base. If I can hold 1rax/1fact/1starport at 7:30-8:00, with siege tanks / banshee / raven, why on earth would it be HARDER to hold a push off 1rax/1rax/1rax at 10:00, with no medivac support, with perfect scouting due to observer?
I think the push comes too late and does no economic damage. After that you end up 2base vs 2 base, but behind in tech. Most likely behind in army, too.
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On April 20 2012 18:11 Plague1503 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 02:42 Belial154 wrote:
I am one of those Terrans that has been struggling TvP and have been looking for a nice 2Base timing attack that if done correctly has a high percentage chance of putting you well ahead. Try Grobyc's 3Rax (2 reactor 1 TL) or even Thorzain's famous TvT build. I almost completely ditched Marauders in the early and midgame vs. Toss and am DEMOLISHING at my level (Dia EU).
I've been doing ThorZain's TvT build against terran and protoss for months now, and it got me into masters.
It grants you:
an early expansion
Early upgrades
An early third
A ton of marines
At 10 minutes you'll have around 90 supply, 32 marines, four medivacs, +1 attack, stim and combat shield
The push at 10 minutes often just straight out wins you the game, unless collosus tech is out, in which case you just have to pull back and start a starport more.
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On April 20 2012 19:26 moQbara wrote:
After watching the replay vs sweethydra, I just don't see it supporting your claims. Also, the level at which you're playin is a bit off - nowhere near high-diamond to master, but rather high plat, on average (based on opponents met).
have you even watched the other 2 games or just the one? because the game against sweethydra is kind of a special case with shakuras, cannot really stim up there and do the damage at the timing if he has a sufficient amount of forcefields, which leads to a contain
- for the three replays that you provided the level is gold to low diamond; why claim it's good vs master?
i played with it against higher opponents in tournaments (namely TL open, got 2 wins vs 1 loss against master players overall, + some training games against a master protoss which i too won about 50% even though he saw it coming,) so yes, it works against master players as well, at least in the sense that i can compete with them
- you say it gives you an economic lead but at the timing you aim for (~10min) you have equal army supply and equal worker supply.
The economic lead kicks in after the timing, because i expand behind it, and he would have to cut units to expand himself at that point, which means i should be able to deny it.
- great deal of damage done to opponent-> no, you killed just a few units. No damage to production / economy.
yes, in this replay i am not able to do the damage that build normally promisses because he did a pretty good counter build. Also on Shakuras i really cannot just stim into his natural like i do on other maps because the ramp is forcefielded so easily, which means i went for a contain which worked great.
- he has no army to kill you with -> actually, had he focused on making units more, your alreadystimmed marine-marauder with no medivac support would've melted to sentry/zealot/immortal with guardian shield.
a valid point. If you look at the other replays you should see though, that this replay is a special case, since i don't trade armies, but go for a contain instead because of the earlier mentioned ramp above.
- he has no map awareness, he does nothing vs drops (he had templar tech / charge).
right, but has not much to do with the opening ^.^
Theorycrafting: preparing for a 111 assumes scouting and figuring out what type of 111 you're doing. And pumping units out of 3 gates 1 robo / 2 base. If I can hold 1rax/1fact/1starport at 7:30-8:00, with siege tanks / banshee / raven, why on earth would it be HARDER to hold a push off 1rax/1rax/1rax at 10:00, with no medivac support, with perfect scouting due to observer?
I think the push comes too late and does no economic damage. After that you end up 2base vs 2 base, but behind in tech. Most likely behind in army, too.
actually i end up in 2base vs 3base, i end up with upgrades that are way faster than his, a ton of production and great economy
and the reason why it's harder to hold off, is because the raw damage output of my push is MUCH higher, the army itself more mobile and less scared of midmap interceptions.
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Thanks for your reply.
I only watched that one replay due to time constraints. I shall look into the other two but I think it would be helpful to better understand your build if you would add those training replays too  .
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EPT
