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Hello, a little while ago I stumbled upon a concern regarding the loss of the ability to play SC2 after a relatively young age -- say, at around 25 years old. Unsurprisingly, this idea has popped up many, many times here at TL and in other forums as well, undoubtedly.
People have expressed concerns for their favorite progamers who are getting up there in age. Players like Nada, Boxer, and other longtime pros come to mind in particular. Is it true that perhaps they've lost some skill due to a "slowdown" of the brain?
I decided it might be useful to shed some light on this idea. Intuitively, it seems totally reasonable that as we age, we lose the ability to execute deft motor commands, perform accurate mental calculations, and draw rapid, dissociated comparisons in order to form intelligent, useful, meaningful, and innovative ideas -- things crucial to success in SC2. Indeed, we do undergo cognitive decline as we age. But to what extent, when, and does it actually noticeably affect SC2 performance? Probably not, but let's take a look.
So the big question -- what exactly is it about adults, or growing up, that gives us this intuition that as we age, we suck more at games? It turns out it's true that aging of the brain entails a natural process of cognitive decline, for reasons that are being explored now (question: what is it about age that induces cognitive decline?). It's been well documented:
+ Show Spoiler +Our brains gradually get smaller -- not due to loss of neurons, but by decay of supportive scaffolding, neural insulation, and inter-connectivity: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/07WEg.png) But what do these physical changes at the brain entail? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xV693.png) Specifically, what types of things or processes are affected, and how do they differ in severity? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nwiIA.png) What about things important to gaming, such as attention and rapid problem-solving? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZpLa9.png) (average results are similar to the above for both attention & problem solving!)
However, it's important to keep in mind that not everyone undergoes cognitive decline to the same degree of severity. In fact, you might not even experience much cognitive decline at all for a long, long time (into your 40s, 50s, and do on). The fact is, though, that decline does start to happen in the late 20s/early 30s on average. I don't think it has much bearing on SC2 ability, though.
Has this talk of cognitive decline worried you a little bit? Rest assured! There are 2 things you can do to help prevent this natural process of neuro-cognitive decline, both of which have been studied extensively in various animal models and to a lesser extent in human models:
+ Show Spoiler +Healthy eating & exercise! ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1M3y4.png) ^^^Notice how the young mouse neuro-muscular junction is more similar to the old mice NMJs that have had caloric restriction & exercise? Without caloric restriction/exercise, one could argue the brain literally 'rots', although that's stretching it quite a bit -- and a neuroscientist wouldn't be too happy to hear it phrased that way. Furthermore: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aS1u8.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zDXuC.png)
So TL;DR -- you're not going to automatically suck at games at 25 years old (or any arbitrary age). In fact, you might not experience any significant cognitive decline for quite a long time! That said, it's true that cognitive decline occurs -- often onsetting in the late 20s/early 30s. You can most likely **HELP** to avoid this process though by good diet and exercise -- but even then, maybe not. You can also increase your overall life expectancy adhering to those 2 things.
Just out of curiosity, I wanted to include a little poll to see what people feel about their own mental states as they age in relation to SC2:
Poll: [How do you feel about your own cognitive decline?I'm too young to notice it -- I think I'm okay! (under 25 years old) (361) 43% I'm getting old, but I'm still feeling as mentally amazing as I ever have! (over 25) (284) 34% I'm young, but I've actually noticed a 'slowdown' in my cognitive abilities (under 25) (94) 11% I'm getting old, and I've experienced cognitive decline (over 25; bad diet/no exercise) (69) 8% I'm getting old, and I've experienced cognitive decline (over 25; good diet/exercise) (38) 4% 846 total votes Your vote: [How do you feel about your own cognitive decline? (Vote): I'm too young to notice it -- I think I'm okay! (under 25 years old)
(Vote): I'm young, but I've actually noticed a 'slowdown' in my cognitive abilities (under 25)
(Vote): I'm getting old, but I'm still feeling as mentally amazing as I ever have! (over 25)
(Vote): I'm getting old, and I've experienced cognitive decline (over 25; bad diet/no exercise)
(Vote): I'm getting old, and I've experienced cognitive decline (over 25; good diet/exercise)
Note: By using 25 as a benchmark, I'm not suggesting 25 years old is OLD. Don't interpret it that way. If you must know my personal opinion on what is "old", how about 65.
So, it's pretty clear that although cognitive decline is a real phenomenon, it is unlikely that it is the primary thing to fear as age increases with regard to success in SC2. That said, let's come up with alternative reasons to why we might 'decline' in our abilities to play SC2 and other games as we get older, such as loss of motivation/interest, etc.
Elegant/insightful posts:
+ Show Spoiler +On January 03 2012 09:02 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
Interestingly, I'd say the enjoyment derived from gaming has remained very constant, however. This leads me to a surprising conclusion that being good at a game does not directly correlate with enjoying the gaming experience and, more importantly, being bad at a game does not equate to a less enjoyable experience. On January 03 2012 08:17 dearyuna wrote:
It has been shown that when comparing older adults to college-age students, information processing differs. Older adults are more likely to use predictability mechanisms, in which they use what they already know to make sense of novel stimuli. In contrast, college-age students are more likely to use a form of bottom-up processing, thus are less reliant on preexisting schemas to make sense of any given difficulty. Students are faster at reading, but only when there is high contrast lighting. In low contrast lighting, adults are more adept at comprehending a sentence due use of predictability of words in context.
On January 03 2012 10:58 KingofGods wrote:
The older you get, the more guilty you feel about playing. On January 04 2012 02:47 Cel.erity wrote:
I am 29 now and slower than when I was 18, sure, but I don't have a good way to measure how much slower. I haven't played competitive FPS in forever, and I'm sure the lack of practice also contributes to my slowness, but I don't have much trouble multitasking in SC2 or playing Osu! insane maps.
I'm pretty sure any difference in cognitive decline could only be seen at the very, very highest level of gameplay [fdm note: yes!], and maybe not even then. If Flash continues practicing as much as he does now for the next 10 years, I have a hard time believing he will be any worse of a player due to age. Note that in the case of a player like BoxeR, it's probably not old age holding him back, but the evolution of the game and the talent. Plus he's still crushing in Code S through all that. Cognitive decline is overrated.
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I've always said video games is really common to female gymnastics in this way. In both people seem to hit their prime at like age 16. I think in RTS people can go a little older because there's more emphasis on strategy and slow reaction times are less of a big deal. But man, I remember watching a youtube of a 16 year old kid playing counter strike 1.6 that had me completely floored. Blew away any other highlight reel I'd seen from the big teams.
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As a 19-year-old, the thought that I am already past my gaming prime has me pretty depressed.
As a 19-year-old bronze player, I suppose it doesn't matter.
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On January 03 2012 08:08 thirtythree wrote:
I've always said video games is really common to female gymnastics in this way. In both people seem to hit their prime at like age 16. I think in RTS people can go a little older because there's more emphasis on strategy and slow reaction times are less of a big deal. But man, I remember watching a youtube of a 16 year old kid playing counter strike 1.6 that had me completely floored. Blew away any other highlight reel I'd seen from the big teams.
But according to data, it seems there wouldn't be much of a difference between a 16 yr old gamer and a 25 yr old gamer, on average, assuming equal training regimens and mindsets. Gymnastics has more to do with physical attributes IMO, similar to the idea that female swimmers also lose their 'peak' after around 18 on average
On January 03 2012 08:11 Telemachos wrote:
As a 19-year-old, the thought that I am already past my gaming prime has me pretty depressed.
As a 19-year-old bronze player, I suppose it doesn't matter.
I'm saying you aren't though! You may very well not hit your 'prime' till around 30, or maybe 40, as evidence shows is the case in some individuals. My point is to say that just cuz you hit 19 years old does not necessitate a loss of cognition. Maybe a decrease in performance in your gaming can be attributed to mindset and practice, rather than natural brain decay
also, people should let me know if they can't see the images.. im realizing they aren't loading on my end :/
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I'm 26 and feel as good as if not better than ever in my ability to focus, multitask, micro, etc. All skills have been steadily improving as I go.
The one thing I notice that has declined noticeably is my stamina. I used to be able to crank out 6-8 hour gaming sessions without taking a break, but now tend to experience fatigue (mental not physical) if I go any longer than 3 hours or so, resulting in very noticeable decline in performance. I'm not sure if this is a result of generally being more tired due to having less down-time when not gaming, or if it is the beginning of the end for my brain and gaming lol. I certainly hope not.
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White-Ra. Your argument is invalid.
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I'm 33 and I feel great. I'm certainly in better physical condition than I was in my twenties, and I'm also, I think, smarter and more contemplative (I'm sure getting a PhD was part of that).
I feel a little clunky playing SC2 sometimes, but it's my first RTS. I think it's just experience, not age.
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I find this thread interesting for several reasons. In my cognitive psychology class we discussed a paper that was published, called "Reading in the dark: effects of age and contrast on reading speed and comprehension." article information (haha too lazy to APA cite).
It has been shown that when comparing older adults to college-age students, information processing differs. Older adults are more likely to use predictability mechanisms, in which they use what they already know to make sense of novel stimuli. In contrast, college-age students are more likely to use a form of bottom-up processing, thus are less reliant on preexisting schemas to make sense of any given difficulty. Students are faster at reading, but only when there is high contrast lighting. In low contrast lighting, adults are more adept at comprehending a sentence due use of predictability of words in context.
Having said that and applying this information to the world of gaming, a lot of people really overestimate neural decay. It's true that reaction times and alternative methods of thinking are delayed in general when people grow older, but many people fail to understand that these differences occur between significant age groups. In addition there's the whole "use it or lose it" mentality in the world of cognitive science, but that happens in early development, so as long as you keep the SC2 strategies well practiced, you should be fine.
I don't think anyone needs to worry about BoxeR or Nada need to worry unless they turn like 60 or 70. If anyone begins to question the credentials of any older person, we might as well start freaking out everytime we see a surgeon in his late 40s or 50s. This statements supports the thread starter I guess 
The pros to BoxeR and Nada's long career is that they've racked up experience. This compensates for any possible setback; they're more aware and analytical of what they need to due given a difficult situation because more likely than not, they've been in that situation before.
+ Show Spoiler +
SO DONT WORRY~ BE HAPPY~
Long live the pros 
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On January 03 2012 08:15 ClutchSC wrote:
White-Ra. Your argument is invalid.
I'm confused... How is what I said invalid? I'm saying you don't necessarily undergo cognitive decline no matter what, as some people seem to think. I even listed a couple ways you can avoid it. I especially noted that for some, it might be the case that cognitive decline simple never occurs!
On January 03 2012 08:17 OldManZerg wrote:
I'm 33 and I feel great. I'm certainly in better physical condition than I was in my twenties, and I'm also, I think, smarter and more contemplative (I'm sure getting a PhD was part of that).
I feel a little clunky playing SC2 sometimes, but it's my first RTS. I think it's just experience, not age.
Very cool I think i'm inclined to agree with you -- that at least in healthy cases, the clunkiness is more due to experience rather than age. Of course, some of us unfortunately undergo rapid premature decline, such as in cases of parkinsons/AD/brain injury
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I will be 29 next month. I'm getting older.. I feel like my reflexes / multi-tasking is getting worse 
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I'm incredibly young for this forum and I've still spent periods in what I'm pretty sure is the exact kind of slow-minded, inelastic mentality that people often ascribe to old people who are unable to play the game well anymore. I don't that could be any more false. Anyone can approach this game with the wrong or right mindset regardless of age; even the best and greatest progamers fall into traps of playing too statically and predictably who are much more young than Boxer, NaDa and the like.
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Look at whitera. He plays slow, he knows he does, hes even said so himself a few times. But if you know the game well enough and know what you're doing, make good decisions and what not, speed doesnt matter imo.
As long as youre not on like 20 apm then it shouldnt matter. I think its more of a mental game then physically playing, if you get me
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generally if you're mid-late 20's or older then you have other responsibilities in life and therefore can't apply enough time.
whitera and nestea are easily two of the best players in the world, and they're both around 30 years old.
i read about some scientific data that proved that when you get older your brain changes to be more efficient at solving puzzles. therefore what you may lose in reaction times you will more than regain through greater decision making.
starcraft is a game of decision making.
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Has nothing to do with them being slower due to age in my opinion, in all likelyhood it's probably...
More people are going to begin gaming in their teen years than their 20s, and very few players are going to be able to remain dedicated to a 12+ hour practice schedule at 25 when compared with the number of 16 year olds that would be more than willing to do it. Besides, most pro-gamers are usually exhausted after years of hard practice like that, it's really difficult to give up everything to be the best at something, let alone remain that way for years and years. Most players are going to hit their stride 2-4 years into their career and then eventually burn out, as the practice you have to put in is extremely mentally draining.
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England84 Posts
22 years old and my gaming is improving :D
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Calling out WhiteRa is not a counter argument. Everyone is different, if you wanted a scientific experiment you would need to go back in time and pull out 18 year old WhiteRa and watch how he plays SC2 compared to current WhiteRa. Just because current WhiteRa can play well doesn't mean anything. Stating it as evidence is bunk. Go back to school. NOW.
The question is whether or not he is in decline due to age. Maybe 31 year old WhiteRa is a top player, but if he were born ten years later, maybe 21 year old WhiteRa would be an SC2 bonjwa dominating all GSLs and MLGs. Then later as he declines, he becomes merely good.
That said, it's practically impossible to get any sort of reliable information about this so it's just fun conjecture. I personally don't think any cognitive decline would really account for any real differences in results. Obviously a person with Alzheimers would be struggling, but even at the top level the game is very much about muscle memory and mechanics and experience.
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It's not the speed that's declining -I'm 23 and I I've never been faster and better at RTS though I feel I kind of reached my limit at 80 APM- but the will to compete is completely gone because I've got more important things to do than playing video games.
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I'm still young, but I guess being only a year younger than you? I'm soon to be 24, and I always play high...and I feel the only thing I have going for me is my insanely fast thinking rate and reactionary ability. I'm mid-high masters on two accounts atm, with avg APM around 160-170.
I feel better at RTS than I did when I was 16-19 playing TFT, and younger playing BW. We didn't have all these insane resources to look at and use like I feel we do in SC2.
I honestly feel like I keep getting better the more I play. I'm in the boat of the players that play under 200 games a season on ladder, spread among 2-3 names. I do not watch replays, or pro replays, or GSL or the sorts. I don't study strategies, I don't even try to copy people. It's all really a matter of if you are good at RTS games and have the skill to put two and two together if you can keep getting better with age.
Aren't 'the best' players all over 25? Nestea and MVP I mean.
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If reaction times blah blah really slow down that much by 25 then every footballer, basketball player, tennis player and F1 driver would retire by 25..... in fact most don't come in to their prime until then.
I think most of the "older people can't game" stuff comes from the fact that until very recently older people hadn't grown up with gaming. My generation have been gaming since the age of 5, any generation before it probably didn't start until way way later. I think we will see more and more older gamers as it becomes both more accepted in society and as the younger guys simply grow up.
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You say it's "well-documented" yet fail to provide any proper documentation. It is true that ON AVERAGE, there is brain decline. On average, people stop using their brains once they establish a career, and they generally lose cognitive ability as a result. Diets and lifestyle deteriorate as well.
That has little to do with age outside a few minor cognitive deficits. Sure, the brain decreases in size, but mostly only useless neurons and supporting structures are lost (and there are cognitive benefits to this, with very few detriments). Conversely, white matter increases after age 25; shouldn't this make you smarter?
We're not here to theorycraft. There have been BILLIONS of dollars spent on researching aging and cognition. It doesn't matter if there "intuitively" "seems" to be a decline in X, Y and Z when the scientific literature has already reached its own conclusions by actually studying the issue.
I would spend more time trying to write something that's actually based on science, but almost everything in the OP is either a disgusting simplification, misinterpretation of results or just dishonest. You're suggesting CALORIE RESTRICTION as a means of increasing cognitive performance? Really? You want to put the health of a young player at risk because a small handful of studies have shown that calorie restriction increases the lifespan... of rodents? It's hardly even been tested on humans, and the research that we do have on its effect on cognitive performance are very, very inconclusive... Yet you're recommending that random, uneducated SC2 players try it? At best, as far as we can tell with limited data, calorie restriction has no effect on cognitive performance. However, there's plenty of evidence that it may prove to be substantially detrimental for certain types of task. Do you know why we have limited data on calorie restriction in humans, by the way? Because it's difficult to find enoguh subjects who are willing to potentially compromise their well-being for extended periods of time to test it.
Be careful guys, don't believe everything you read on the internet... If you are experience cognitive decline in age (after ensuring that you have proper diet, exercise (physical and mental) and outlook, there are plenty of safe, healthy and effective methods and drugs that allow almost anybody to operate at peak mental performance.
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EPT
