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Hey y'all,
We have all watched Protoss player after Protoss player struggle to create a wall that both covers his Nexus, his buildings, AND his mineral line in some cases. Trying to estimate whether or not a Cannon can quite hit a given spot is a bit of trial by fire and we all have lost ladder points experimenting.
WARNING: These walls are the walls I have found solid and useful and met the criteria I am looking for. I do NOT believe in solid wall-offs. I played BW. When you wanted a wall, you blocked with Probes like a man, by God, you made it work. If people suggest good wall-ins to add, I will HAPPILY add them.
Abyssal Caverns
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EDIT: Added build grid. Proof of Zealot block and Forge spacing.
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Believe it or not, this is a solid wall between the Forge and ramp. This pattern works at all locations basically identically. The pylon placement is not critical, but it is completely flush with the Cannon, and is most optimal to prevent getting the Cannon targetted down. The Zealot fully blocks the space, it does take a little getting used to how to position him so practice and it gets easy. Probes can fill the gap just as easily. The Cannon could be placed anywhere except with it placed as is, you can fully wall in with an Emergency Pylon if they early pool.
FFE Rating: 5/5
Shakuras Plateau
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Most people default to the full wall-in and break something down to escape. I think this is quite sufficient with appropriately applied micro. Importantly, your placement order should be the Pylon far from the ramp FIRST!! This lets you fully wall in with a 3rd big structure if you see an early pool. After you scout your immediate safety, this wall in is more than sufficient. Again, you have a LOT of cannon space this way and you can get out if necessary to take the fight to fast Hydras.
FFE Rating: 5/5
Nezarim Crypts
EDIT: Added grid. Shows my 2nd pylon placement further back to goad attempts and Zealot marks where a Cannon can be dropped to reinforce full wall in.
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This is obviously post-rocks. Note my probe is unsuccessfully trying to force his way past the Zealot. Now, what you don't see but can easily be expected is that your 2nd pylon needs to cover your Gate and where the Core will eventually go. If you aren't going to be using your Forge early, it's not completely necessary to make sure the Pylon gets it (in case you reverse the Forge and Gateway from the picture). Why use the pylon? Because the solid wall in is safe, and once you throwdown your Gateway, you can build a 2nd cannon or Pylon immediately to the right of the current pylon and finish the wall. If you open 14 Forge, 16 Nexus, 17 Gate, Cannon, Pylon, you will have enough money to pile on stuff in the way. It also is cute because it goads Zergs into trying to take down the Pylon if they don't spy the backup. And finally, there are a lot of good spots for Cannons against scouted all-ins.
FFE Rating: 4/5
Antiga Shipyards
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What a sexy little wall, eh? Importantly, this wall-in works ONLY in bottom right and top left because Blizzard deems it unnecessary to actually generate identical spawns and naturals :-(. This one is great for its absolute lack of an immediate 2nd big structure and walling at the big ramp is worse than even on TDA. I illustrated the 2nd cannon spot because the two cover every mineral patch though they miss a single Zergling space between the 3rd and 4th patches from the left, but they can't hit your probes if you just don't let probes path between those two. Furthermore, the first cannon safely covers laying down the 2nd, no thought required!
FFE Rating: 4/5
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On the top right spot, you have 7 hexes of space to fill, meaning you need to go Forge, Gate, and a miserably awkward pylon to block it in. Luckily, this cannon covers the entire mining area, Nexus, and Forge, so you just need the 2nd Pylon. Here is where I place it, you could always put it in front if you so desired, I guess, but I wouldn't recommend it.
FFE Rating: 4/5
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So the bottom left spot is more traditional in the Forge-Gateway wall with a safely placed pylon. The Cannon placement is actually pretty crucial here because otherwise you can't cover most of the mineral line! I cropped the image so you can see the safe places for your Probes to mine, hang out, eat apps (that's slang for appetizers), etc.
FFE Rating: 4/5
Tal'Darim Altar
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Another classic in FFE'ing, but, funnily enough, one of the more subtle ones! Because its size, I recommend not trying the full wall-in and going for boss mode as depicted. Note: PLEASE do not put the gap in your wall closer to your ramp than the Cannon or you increase the risk of early Roach pressure. You definitely can fully wall this in using pylons and such, but honestly, if you open Pylon, Forge, Nexus, Gate/Cannon, you can throw down at least 1 pylon and stuff the remaining space with probes as needed. No fear, brethren.
FFE Rating: 4/5
Backwater Gulch
BL:
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Ooooooof. None of the glamour of many of the other neat wall-ins. Note the odd angles and stupid planning needed. Furthermore, this position, bottom left, is the only one that you can easily get a Cannon to cover your 2nd one while it's going up that protects your Nexus AND your mineral line. You definitely need a 2nd Pylon behind the Gate-Forge-Cannon portion, and that means you can block the remaining areas with probes as needed in case of attempted runbys.
EDIT: Added other Backwater positions so you can see the problems.
*IMPORTANT* If you try to put a cannon flush to the Nexus but with half of it offset, so "straddling the edge", as seen below, it is NOT a solid wall between the Cannon and Nexus. Stuff CAN slip thru and you NEED the Pylon filling the Gateway & Nexus to stop Ling pwnage.
TL:
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BR:
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TR: Note this does not protect top left of Nexus. If you move it 1 hex up, it doesn't cover the Forge.
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The other positions follow this setup *roughly* but I honestly don't know whether or not it is worth it to try. None of them can wall neatly like this AND have a first Cannon cover both the Forge and Nexus AND safely toss down a 2nd cannon based on the first pylon that covers the Nexus and mineral lines. Top right CANNOT put down a cannon AND wall AND cover all the buildings; Zerglings will always be able to hit either Forge or Nexus. Top left and bottom use the same setup, but suffer from the 2nd cannon issue and barely cover the minerals. My recommendation: Open up lots of Chrono'd Zealots and give yourself breathing room to drop a 2nd Cannon. Look at the cannon ranges to see what I am talking about.
Bottom Left FFE Rating: 3/5
Top Left and Bottom right FFE Rating: 2/5
Top right FFE Rating: 0/5. You will lose to a player who notices that Cannons are not Colossi and thus don't have 13 range.
Xel'Naga Caverns
Uhhhh. Don't do it. I know people have done it. But off a standard FFE, you cannot cover most fo the mineral line with 1 cannon, and the 2nd cannon can ONLY cover the mineral line and the Nexus is vulnerable to any number of Roaches, meaning you need at least 2 more Pylons and cannons after your first Nex, Forge, Gate, Core, and Cannon, while praying their Roaches come after 6 minutes...
FFE Rating: 1/5. It's possible they don't build 3 Roaches in the first 7 minutes. Otherwise... who needs 2 Nexus anyways? It's rough. Nuff said.
EDIT: Since people don't believe me, allow me to illustrate why this is a terrible map to FE on.
#1- This illustrates the ONLY location a Cannon can cover your entire Nexus and entire Forge from Lings using a Wall-in suggested by Geiko. Try to find other spots for a Cannon to cover everything... Won't work.
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#2- How could I have missed such an elegant solution? Wait for it...
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#3- So here is a Zealot+Pylon wall-in that is actually tight.
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#4- Here is an alternate only Pylon wall (which is super weak) that also shows your 2nd Cannon only being able to cover 3/4ths of your mineral line.
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It takes Forge, Gate, 2xCannon, 2xPylon, and your Nexus to cover 3/4ths of the mineral line, the Nexus, and wall JUST FROM LINGS. Not one of these Cannons protects Forge or Nexus from Roaches and wait for it... The GATEWAY can even be ranged for 2-3 Roaches at an angle.
Searing Crater
Lol.
FFE Rating: -5/5. Stop thinking about it, you are getting dumber.
Typhon Peaks
You can't get a Cannon to both cover all your builds needed to block ramp AND have it cover the Nexus, except on Top Right. And guess what? Your 2nd Cannon, if covered by the first Cannon, can't even defend the whole mineral line. Uhhh. Who needs all the mineral patches anyways, amirite?
FFE Rating: 1/5 MAYBE opening 2 gate into Forge MIGHT work if they refuse to build Roaches or attack with them.
Shattered Temple
This suffers degrees of problems between Typhon and Backwater Gulch. It's super icky to try and make it work and you are praying they don't all-in you. It's a map where you can get the Nexus down and maybe start mining, but it is a long arduous process full of rectal discomfort and anal leakage. Any number of Gates into an expansion + Forge is muuuuuch safer. Due to the wideness of the choke, some number of FFs are almost needed.
FFE Rating: 1/5. 2 gate used to work on LT because of narrower choke... I haven't gotten to work and walling off sucks. So a real FFE is mostly out of the question.
Conclusions
The current map pool only has 2 auto-FFE's, and the rest take a little bit of effort to pull off against aggressive Zergs, but even so... It's pretty EZPZ to do it on the "real" maps. Real maps are ones that don't have absurd positional imbalances (Backwater), aren't stupid (Searing Crater), and weren't specifically altered to make it harder on Protoss FE's(Shattered Temple). And we all are sick of XNC anyways, right? So 4gate that shit and move on to a real man's map. Or 5gate with Nexus-Cancel. Or pick your own faovrite all-in to make a Zerg QQ and grow stronger from their rage. Let it fill you until you need the energy to man up and Nexus first.
For newer players:
Nexus first vs. Forge first is based on scouting. A Nexus-Forge-Gate-Cannon is safe vs 14g14p or later. Forge-Nexus-(Gate)-Cannon is better for the middle pool builds (10 overpool or later), and Forge-Cannon-Nexus is for silliness like <10 pools. Please remember that a 14 Forge will not hold a 6 pool if they can run straight at you, even if you full wall in, so on Shakuras, consider 12 or 13 Forge.
Cheers y'all!
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I can't see your pictures!
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Maybe it's just me but none of the pictures are showing up. Can you please check them just to make sure they work? I would LOVE to do FFE vs. Zerg on everyday all day on as many maps as possible.
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AHHH PICS NOT WORKING EMERGENCY RE-UPLOADING.
Don't Panic. I got this.
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On October 04 2011 12:17 Sleight wrote:
AHHH PICS NOT WORKING EMERGENCY RE-UPLOADING.
Don't Panic. I got this.
I hope so
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Fixed! Normality has been restored. Cheers
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I don't agree with your antiga shipyards walloff, I found it's better to walloff by the ramp outside your nat which makes roachling allins easier to defend
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On October 04 2011 12:30 HenryZ wrote:
I don't agree with your antiga shipyards walloff, I found it's better to walloff by the ramp outside your nat which makes roachling allins easier to defend
It takes at least 4 buildings to wall ramp, 3 of which need to be 3x3 hexes. You literally HAVE to sacrifice your wall to a fast pool. With the walls I suggest on Antiga, you only have to sac the wall to the earliest, most aggro of pool builds, but even 11 Overpool can bust a big ramp wall easily. As soon as they scout it they can send 8 drones and rallying in constant Lings will take down the wall just before you can actually complete it.
These sort of Ling/Drone all-ins aren't viable vs. smaller tighter walls. Once more Zergs realize how easy the drone-pull timing is to make, I expect it to become a standard response to big walls. It even can work on Nezarim if they don't use Pylon in wall.
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Awful post. Your walls are terrible. You do not want pylons in the wall at all, i know from experience you can wall every map of these with buildings that aren't pylons. ALso on antiga you want to wall the huge ramp, which does require one pylon contrary to my previous statement
User was warned for this post
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On October 04 2011 14:35 eidol wrote:
Awful post. Your walls are terrible. You do not want pylons in the wall at all, i know from experience you can wall every map of these with buildings that aren't pylons. ALso on antiga you want to wall the huge ramp, which does require one pylon contrary to my previous statement
Immediately above your post he clearly and accurately explains why walling the ramp can be a bad idea
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So as a master zerg player who loves to get easy wins off of bad FFEs, I think you always need a full wall-off or at the very least a zealot wall off.
Here's my evaluation of your pictures(from the enemy):
The abyssal caverns one doesn't look solid from the picture, I think the zealot is too small to cover that gap, but if you move the cannon one square to the left, he definitely holds that choke.
There are much much better walloffs for shakuras, that map is extremely standard FFE, wall off with big buildings more.
I don't play on nerazim, but obviously 'post-rocks' isn't what you want to plan for. Be careful of the artosis pylon on that one.
The ones on Antiga are particularly vulnerable to speedling runby, most master that I play go for a 1, 2, or 3 gate sentry expand on Antiga.
The Tal'darim FFE is solid, most players prefer walloff instead of zealot, but this one is very good.
And finally, Backwater Gulch... This is just not a good idea. The better wall is gateway forge across the pathway closest to the ramp then other stuff out further, but sentry expand is a lot lot safer as speedling runby can be brutal on this map as well.
Also, note that I open up speedling expand, so some FFEs might be safer against gasless expands, but you can't scout that until after you've committed to the FFE with your pylon placement.
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On October 04 2011 14:35 eidol wrote:
Awful post. Your walls are terrible. You do not want pylons in the wall at all, i know from experience you can wall every map of these with buildings that aren't pylons. ALso on antiga you want to wall the huge ramp, which does require one pylon contrary to my previous statement
I get that you are new here, so I will pretend you gave a post with some quality.
1)The walls with Pylons involved are all out of necessity to stop wins vs early Pools. You cannot hold Nezarim without a full wall in vs 11overpool or earlier, even if you go Forge-Cannon before Nexus, unless they scout you last. On Shakuras, IF YOU READ, I pointed out you do the Zealot-Pylon wall if you don't have to do the standard panic 3x3 hex in their place. I clearly explain that. If you are walling in on Antiga's big ramp, you are not beating any pool before 11overpool. Furthermore, you are playing to stop Lings and deter Roaches. Your walls don't need to be impenetrable forces of nature like some may believe. Leaner is better.
2) You can't wall in Antiga's big ramp without a pylon in the wall if you are going to do it without severely delaying Nexus. You can definitely do a Gate-Forge-Core-Zealot/Probe wall but that is NOT useful against early pool builds. You cannot-panic fill-in that wall.
3) If you disagree, offer counter evidence more than "I know better, cause I do." I said I would gladly add in other walls and start a compendium.
4) Don't be needlessly inflammatory or aggressive. Manner up.
On October 04 2011 14:44 bopoznpvt wrote:
So as a master zerg player who loves to get easy wins off of bad FFEs, I think you always need a full wall-off or at the very least a zealot wall off.
Here's my evaluation of your pictures(from the enemy):
The abyssal caverns one doesn't look solid from the picture, I think the zealot is too small to cover that gap, but if you move the cannon one square to the left, he definitely holds that choke.
There are much much better walloffs for shakuras, that map is extremely standard FFE, wall off with big buildings more.
I don't play on nerazim, but obviously 'post-rocks' isn't what you want to plan for. Be careful of the artosis pylon on that one.
The ones on Antiga are particularly vulnerable to speedling runby, most master that I play go for a 1, 2, or 3 gate sentry expand on Antiga.
The Tal'darim FFE is solid, most players prefer walloff instead of zealot, but this one is very good.
And finally, Backwater Gulch... This is just not a good idea. The better wall is gateway forge across the pathway closest to the ramp then other stuff out further, but sentry expand is a lot lot safer as speedling runby can be brutal on this map as well.
Also, note that I open up speedling expand, so some FFEs might be safer against gasless expands, but you can't scout that until after you've committed to the FFE with your pylon placement.
Okay well:
1) The Zealot DOES fill the gap. Actually test before mindlessly disagreeing.
2) Read my POST and I explain that I am offering an alternative to just placing a Core which I describe clearly.
3) I DISCUSS THE PYLON IF YOU READ POST.
4) Antiga is not vulnerable to speedlings for the reasons I describe. You have to go along way around and I will have Zealots+ probes to block my small area.
5) Incorrect friend. What you are describing does not work against the Speedlings you describe from Antiga. This is the only method to truly FFE. I also DISCUSS WHY YOU SHOULDN"T DO IT in my post.
TL:DR Read post, don't just look at pictures and make assumptions.
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Love this thread already. I had at one point started drawing walls on some graph paper I printed out, but gave up. I like the walls, and I like the explanations as well.
Thanks a ton Sleight!
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You sir, are a boss at simcity
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On October 04 2011 14:48 Sleight wrote:
Okay well:
1) The Zealot DOES fill the gap. Actually test before mindlessly disagreeing.
2) Read my POST and I explain that I am offering an alternative to just placing a Core which I describe clearly.
3) I DISCUSS THE PYLON IF YOU READ POST.
4) Antiga is not vulnerable to speedlings for the reasons I describe. You have to go along way around and I will have Zealots+ probes to block my small area.
5) Incorrect friend. What you are describing does not work against the Speedlings you describe from Antiga. This is the only method to truly FFE. I also DISCUSS WHY YOU SHOULDN"T DO IT in my post.
TL:DR Read post, don't just look at pictures and make assumptions.
Hm, excuse me for giving constructive criticism if it wasn't wanted, but I will respond to your arguments.
1) The zealot MIGHT fill the gap if placed *perfectly*, I assure you he would get poked by my speedlings to make sure, but there is also the issue that that zealot can be attacked by 2, maybe even 3 zerglings because of his placement, which means he dies faster than usual. I know you might say 'Oh well I'm going to be a man and pull probes to block', but probes die faster than zealots do in that position, and a stream of speedlings towards that wall ends the game quickly.
2) Surprisingly enough I did read your post, but I think the bigger buildings walling off is better, if you want a way out, leave a gap on the side of the ramp and wall off with the zealot there. Roaches poking can take down that pylon faster than they would a core, which leaves you vulnerable.
3) Once again, I read your post the first time and my warning was simply that. If you want to bait me into breaking your wall, I play aggressive and I will and many probes will die.
4) When I say speedling runby I don't mean 6 zerglings running around that can be easily dispatched by a zealot and some probes. When I run in with zerglings, I want to kill probes, so when you block with probes, I am happy. Also, pulling probes for that purpose takes gosu reaction time since speedlings are the fastest unit in the game. It's not like I am making this stuff up, I beat high masters on ladder because of these simple mistakes the make.
5) If you don't seriously consider FFE on this map as an option (which it shouldn't be), then don't list it. I honestly think that FFE on shattered might be safer than on backwater gulch.
I know you may think that since I play zerg I don't know how to FFE and maybe I don't, but I do know what a bad FFE looks like and when I see one, I take the free win.
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Very good post I must say, I will be reading this again in depth when I get the chance.
I hate to be a bother...but the same pics with the building grid enabled and uncropped would be a little more helpful, it can be a little confusing without it when you are trying to figure out where there are gaps, and in the first one it is confusing as to where your forge is in relation to your ramp, especially since you cut the ramps mostly out of your pics.
Great post though!
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I don't play 'toss, but this is awesome stuff. Thanks for the writeup.
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On October 05 2011 05:32 attwell wrote:
Very good post I must say, I will be reading this again in depth when I get the chance.
I hate to be a bother...but the same pics with the building grid enabled and uncropped would be a little more helpful, it can be a little confusing without it when you are trying to figure out where there are gaps, and in the first one it is confusing as to where your forge is in relation to your ramp, especially since you cut the ramps mostly out of your pics.
Great post though!
On it, doing Abyssal Caverns, just request others if they aren't intuitive.
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Thanks for the post, but you use pylons in most of your walls in front. This is extremely dangerous.
Many zergs (especially on ladder where everyone cheeses) will baneling bust before you can have sentries out, and if you have a pylon in front like that (especially with some of your walls where your cannon is right behind the pylon and will get killed immediately afterwards) you will lose every single time.
You say you address the pylon issue in your post but nowhere do I see you addressing the issue of baneling busts. I even ctrl>f'd your post for bane and nothing showed up. Players like July have said they will always baneling bust a wall like this against FFE and it's always successful.
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