EPTIf you have time, it would be awesome if you added pics for all spawning locations on each map =)
[G] FFE Walls, the Ladder Pool, and You - Page 2
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
If you have time, it would be awesome if you added pics for all spawning locations on each map =) | ||
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rtsAlaran
Germany383 Posts
 TYVM! <3 | ||
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Geiko
France1947 Posts
To add to the discussion, here are some of the concerns I have : -I don't really like pylons in wall off. In the shakuras wall off, a baneling bust can kill the pylon easily and even if you wall off with a 3x3 building behind, the lings can finish off the injured cannon right behind it. -I don't like the zealot wall off on abyssal caverns, it looks like it can be attacked by multiple lings at once (3 ?) which would mean that just a mass speedling build could break it. Is there no way to make it so the zealot is in a little choke like on the other maps ? -On open natural maps (where nexus is part of the wall off), I feel it is important to be able to emergency wall off your ramp in case of mass ling runby. Some of your building placement don't have pylon power to build at the ramp, and too wide spaces to block with a single pylon. This isn't much of a problem since you can build your second pylon in the natural, but against very early pools, you might need to probe micro to prevent the lings from running up the ramp instead of simply putting down a gateway or something. -Personally, I FFE on all maps, even though the maps you talked about at the end are more difficult, it would be still useful to have building placements for those maps. | ||
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lorestarcraft
United States1049 Posts
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Sleight
2471 Posts
On October 05 2011 05:54 -orb- wrote: Thanks for the post, but you use pylons in most of your walls in front. This is extremely dangerous. Many zergs (especially on ladder where everyone cheeses) will baneling bust before you can have sentries out, and if you have a pylon in front like that (especially with some of your walls where your cannon is right behind the pylon and will get killed immediately afterwards) you will lose every single time. You say you address the pylon issue in your post but nowhere do I see you addressing the issue of baneling busts. I even ctrl>f'd your post for bane and nothing showed up. Players like July have said they will always baneling bust a wall like this against FFE and it's always successful. Excellent point, orb, thanks! As of now, I am working on default Walls to stop early Lings and Ling runbys/all-ins. When dealing with either Roaches or Banelings, your units (re: Sentries) are the most critical aspect of your survival. Ideally you would scout the Baneling Nest and reinforce your wall and chrono Sentries, but I don't know that any choice EXCEPT a solid-wall could be guaranteed safe vs. Banelings, which is not ideal, i think. Instead, I think using an early 2nd Cannon and reinforcing your wall if your Zealot cannot scout gives you the same security. This post isn't intended to be a guide to FFEs, only techniques for walling. Note I did not discuss Forge vs Nexus first other than in passing. Banelings and Roaches are as much build order issues as they are wall issues, seeing as any wall *can* be busted in lieu of unit support. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13400 Posts
Reading some more banelings would be a problem but with good scouting you can block the hole I guess. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
On October 05 2011 06:02 Geiko wrote: Good post, To add to the discussion, here are some of the concerns I have : 1-I don't really like pylons in wall off. In the shakuras wall off, a baneling bust can kill the pylon easily and even if you wall off with a 3x3 building behind, the lings can finish off the injured cannon right behind it. 2-I don't like the zealot wall off on abyssal caverns, it looks like it can be attacked by multiple lings at once (3 ?) which would mean that just a mass speedling build could break it. Is there no way to make it so the zealot is in a little choke like on the other maps ? 3-On open natural maps (where nexus is part of the wall off), I feel it is important to be able to emergency wall off your ramp in case of mass ling runby. Some of your building placement don't have pylon power to build at the ramp, and too wide spaces to block with a single pylon. This isn't much of a problem since you can build your second pylon in the natural, but against very early pools, you might need to probe micro to prevent the lings from running up the ramp instead of simply putting down a gateway or something. -4Personally, I FFE on all maps, even though the maps you talked about at the end are more difficult, it would be still useful to have building placements for those maps. 1) I mention this in replying to Orb, but frankly, any walls with even a Zealot can be busted. it is a matter of prioritizing Sentries and handling Banelings with your units and build order. All of my suggestions allow for secondary reinforcing if you see the Banelings coming. 2) I can only get 2 Lings to attack it at a time. 1 Zealot + 1 cannon shot kills a Ling and if they flood *a lot* of lings, you can fill that space in just behind it with a cannon or Pylon, like I discuss. 3) All of my walls allow for panic blocking the ramp if you incorporate your 2nd pylon. Additionally, they all narrow off the back area enough that you can hold position probes and bug out lings while your cannon shoots. 4) I would really appreciate your help on those maps then Geiko, because I have yet to find a satisfactory wall in method, despite numerous attempts, on any of the maps I left off. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13400 Posts
On October 05 2011 06:15 Sleight wrote: 1) I mention this in replying to Orb, but frankly, any walls with even a Zealot can be busted. it is a matter of prioritizing Sentries and handling Banelings with your units and build order. All of my suggestions allow for secondary reinforcing if you see the Banelings coming. 2) I can only get 2 Lings to attack it at a time. 1 Zealot + 1 cannon shot kills a Ling and if they flood *a lot* of lings, you can fill that space in just behind it with a cannon or Pylon, like I discuss. 3) All of my walls allow for panic blocking the ramp if you incorporate your 2nd pylon. Additionally, they all narrow off the back area enough that you can hold position probes and bug out lings while your cannon shoots. 4) I would really appreciate your help on those maps then Geiko, because I have yet to find a satisfactory wall in method, despite numerous attempts, on any of the maps I left off. I think you mean stop. Putting them on hold position won't bug out the lings | ||
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SpearWrit
United States300 Posts
I do NOT believe in solid wall-offs. I played BW. When you wanted a wall, you blocked with Probes like a man, by God, you made it work. Best part of the thread IMO. | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
I am dragging my feet on doing build grids for every position. I have done pics for anytime it changes, but there are no tricks, otherwise, I would have shown specific spots (see Antiga, Backwater). Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming! Don't forget you can suggest pics and wall-offs and I will GLADLY add them. | ||
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Geiko
France1947 Posts
On October 05 2011 06:15 Sleight wrote: 1) I mention this in replying to Orb, but frankly, any walls with even a Zealot can be busted. it is a matter of prioritizing Sentries and handling Banelings with your units and build order. All of my suggestions allow for secondary reinforcing if you see the Banelings coming. 2) I can only get 2 Lings to attack it at a time. 1 Zealot + 1 cannon shot kills a Ling and if they flood *a lot* of lings, you can fill that space in just behind it with a cannon or Pylon, like I discuss. 3) All of my walls allow for panic blocking the ramp if you incorporate your 2nd pylon. Additionally, they all narrow off the back area enough that you can hold position probes and bug out lings while your cannon shoots. 4) I would really appreciate your help on those maps then Geiko, because I have yet to find a satisfactory wall in method, despite numerous attempts, on any of the maps I left off. Maybe something like this + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/G2fIr.jpg) which you can reinforce later by adding a 3x3 building in front like this + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CXqSE.jpg) or behind (don't have a screen shot for that, very easy AI killed me while I was writing this post -_-, but behind seems better for not losing cybercore to early roaches). There might be better ways, i haven't really given it much thought. The obvious problem with this is that the forge can be sniped with roaches and your cannon is too far, but if he is roach all ining you, then you can afford to sack the forge I guess. You're also gonna need extra cannons on Xnc. I personally always start off with 2 (one near the ramp, and one on the side covering the rest of the mineral line. And then add 0-4 cannons depending on what I scout. Don't really have time to do this for other maps, but there are always ways of FFEing i think. | ||
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BigPain
United States10 Posts
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Sleight
2471 Posts
On October 05 2011 06:46 Geiko wrote: Maybe something like this + Show Spoiler + which you can reinforce later by adding a 3x3 building in front like this + Show Spoiler + or behind (don't have a screen shot for that, very easy AI killed me while I was writing this post -_-, but behind seems better for not losing cybercore to early roaches). There might be better ways, i haven't really given it much thought. The obvious problem with this is that the forge can be sniped with roaches and your cannon is too far, but if he is roach all ining you, then you can afford to sack the forge I guess. You're also gonna need extra cannons on Xnc. I personally always start off with 2 (one near the ramp, and one on the side covering the rest of the mineral line. And then add 0-4 cannons depending on what I scout. Don't really have time to do this for other maps, but there are always ways of FFEing i think. Well the problem there is that your Cannon placement does NOT even cover your Nexus from Zerglings. Soooo... Yeah. Not even close actually. There is exactly ONE point in each natural that your first cannon can cover your entire wall and Nexus on XNC. I am uploading pictures of this placement as we speak. And as you will see the walls suck, AND you still need at least 1 more cannon and pylon just to cover the mineral line from Zerglings. Edit: Updated OP to illustrate systematically why 1) Geiko's wall doesn't work, 2) his cannon doesn't cover everything from even Lings, 3) a version that works (kind of), and 4) why XNC is a terrible map vs. intelligent Zergs aka one who makes ONE roach. | ||
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Geiko
France1947 Posts
I don't really have a problem with defending only ling attack if that's what you mean ? Intelligent protosses make 1 stalker as well, what is your point ? ^^ What you don't get is that, if Z makes roaches, he's losing a lot of drone production. If he is all in, you can make more cannons, and if not, you can afford to lose one structure to roaches. Not going FFE because of that makes you lose a lot more minerals to be honest. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
General question - when you use the nexus as a part of your wall, how do you handle spinecrawler rushes (either quick lair or hatchery close to your nat)? | ||
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zekie
Canada380 Posts
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AA.spoon
Belgium331 Posts
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HeavyWeapons
50 Posts
I've already bookmarked this .. It's always hard to wall off "on the fly" when you scout a 6 pool. | ||
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mewo
United States221 Posts
Some of the general plans for the walls are weak too. Like on abyssal if they target the forge with banes they get two ways in. And why would you not wall off at antiga's ramp? After taking all this time to look carefully at your walls i really think you might be a zerg player making it easier for bane busts and roach allins to work. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Using pylons as part of the wall is not recommended if you can achieve a simple (or with 1 gap) wallin by just using gate/cyber/forge. This already dismisses half the pictures basically. Another thing I dislike is the way you close your gap in case you leave a gap. 2 buildings touching diagonally with 1 gap in between is very tricky to plug with a probe and more importantly that probe can be attacked by 2 (or 3?) lings when it's plugging the wall, i never recommend that kind of plugging. Use a small alley of 1 tile width instead, it's much easier to plug, you can fully plug it with a pylon at the back and probes can only be attacked by 1 ling there when plugging. | ||
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