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This question is directed mostly to Protoss and Terran users, because the zerg system is quite different and perhaps more natural (you automatically add producing facilities as you expand).
What rules do you follow and what general tips can you give about the timing of adding unit producing facilities (such as factories, barracks, gateways) as your economy improves or you finish teching (etc.) ?
Is it better to pause production and teching and add many at once?
Is it better to add gradually just when you have cash?
What is the general priority of this with respect to other things.
I realize that this is very much situational, but I'm sure almost everyone does certain things in certain ways because they think those ways are better. So what are those ways?
I tried to find an effecient way, for instance, to reach 200/200 with zealots and probes on LT. First time I got 3 expos first and then gradually added gateways while making zealots and probes, as I gathered enough money. The second time around, I got 3 expos, and then I made about 12 gateways quickly without producing any zealots, to start producing in full spin right away. Both ways gave roughly equal results, with the second being a little bit faster, but I did not reach a worthwhile conclusion.
From studying high level replays though, the main thing I have picked up is that pausing units even for a short time, to add fact/gate, especially in early-middle game, slows down macro.
Discuss
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I do a mix.
Gradual mostly but when a new expand is about 20 seconds from comming online i will add 1-2 facts or so cutting production/cancelling if needed to do so. Might be worth while expiermenting with cutting SCVs/Probes so you can macro units + start buildings.
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while reading this i thought that your example of 200/200 with probes and zeals was a serious strategy for a minute. maybe im just stupid though
i usually make almost constant probes and make addons when its possible while still making probes
i know when you double expo vs t though you need to halt probes to get enough men to stop a terrans first attack
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Similar to your zeal/probe experiment, notice how a toss can add gateways more gradually and have say 8gateways and 160psi by 12:00 or they could add the gates later and have say 12 of them and 160spi by 12:00. I believe the gradual buildup is the prefered way becuase then you have units to fight with and have a stable force at all times. Besides, It takes alot of minerals to support 12gates and you may not be able to pump constantly.
From studying high level replays though, the main thing I have picked up is that pausing units even for a short time, to add fact/gate, especially in early-middle game, slows down macro. Hum, why would pausing units slow down macro. By pausing units from time to time you can get more gateways out faster then just produce the unit(s) afterwards. This slows down the time you get the units, but i think it improves overall macro if done correctly.
Heres a real game expample of some pvt. make 2gate, 7goons then expand. 2more goons then expand. 2goons, then 2gate+citadel. Thats a pretty general model of efficient macro in a pvt. Now they can choose to hold units off a bit to get more gates out or they can make units but add gates when they have the money. I think adding the gates would produce better overall macro in the future while producing the units gives you more mass quickly. Its a ratio that the player has to decide how to keep.
For pvt macro i think pusan and anytime tend to add gates before units, while players like reach build the units first. This is not all-encompesing though, just wondering if anyone else has noticed this. Some players use ~6gates off of 2-3 nex's then add a bunch(4 or so) all at one time when they get their 3 or 4th nex. In general, thats a pretty easy and efficient way of doing things.
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ideally you are gradually increasing them
it's only logical that it's an advantage when all your production facilities are utilized as often as possible (except when you just don't need anything that that building can produce of course)
but I mean it's illogical to stop using one gateway to build another
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if you want to use your money to build units AND all your gates are already building units and you still have money left, you can add more gateways
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I tend to add gateways as soon as my expo gets online or when I see that minerals are starting to accumulate and i have more than one unit constantly queued in each... You should amost never pause production to make more gateways/factories... I measure macro by efficiency and if you buildings are not constantly pumping, then you are not being very efficient
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Knickknack, good comments,
I'm not talking about suddenly making 12 gateways in a real game. But logically, (this is for you too Grot), I think adding many gateways at once has its merits. If you are adding gradually while making units, 2 minutes from when your expo comes up, you have, say 4 gateways as protoss. But an expo allows you to produce from 6-7 gateways. That means in the same 2 minutes, if you paused unit production, you could have 6-7 gateways capable of constant production (though a smaller immediate fighting force). Those 6-7 gateways will give you a greater flow of units, and if, say the fight is on the edge (your and the opponent's forces are constantly getting wasted) this extra flow will make a big difference.
So, in a way, this seems more solid in the long run, but you are giving your opponent a window of opportunity. That's my thought. How big the window is depends on how many gateways you add.
I've often seen in replays known players pumping their economy for a while and then adding 4-6 producing facilities at once. New age macro favours gradual addition though, maybe the "many-gate" addition is an archaism. Waiting to hear from the gosus 
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check out this replay and tell me what you think please
http://yaoyuan.com/show.php?SID=28759
Some more games i noticed:
-kindgom rep vs wayo in which he makes 6gates off of just him main+nat in a pvp rather quickly. He went 2gate robo to expo which allowed hiim to get his economy up rather quickly.
-2 daezang[gnh] games. both also, also going 2gate->expo. One pvp in which he goes from 3 to 5 gates quicky The other a pvz in which he goes from 2 to 6( if i remember corectly).
These reps show me that if one goes 2gate->expo getting gate count up to 5 or 6 quicky will allow one to produces masses of units effectively. These reps have helped me to decide to almost never go off of more then 6gates off of only 2 bases. more then that and it just doesnot make much sense unless you are contained and need to mass hard or some similar case. off of 3bases I believe 9gates is the the prime. I dont have any figures to back this up really. Just a sense ive gotten from watching reps, playing, etc.
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rule of thumb for me.
when you have gained yourself some time, get tech or get expo.
not enuff money to support facilities, make more expos and workers.
not enuff facilities to support cash flow, make more facilities.
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On March 30 2005 16:00 dTrAn wrote:
I tend to add gateways as soon as my expo gets online or when I see that minerals are starting to accumulate and i have more than one unit constantly queued in each... You should amost never pause production to make more gateways/factories... I measure macro by efficiency and if you buildings are not constantly pumping, then you are not being very efficient
This is for you and ahk-gosu. This is a decent way, but at a high level it's not good enough, I think. You should add gateways in advance, not when your minerals start to accumulate - that's the thing. THe question is timing. What is it?
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I watched that game, Knickknack,
That was pretty incredible. I was going to comment - "why is he double expoing, adding gates while not making anything! Those gates are idle for so long, inefficient! This is not going to be good macro"
But then I realized I was wrong. He had like 12 gateways at 9-10 minutes or something? Off 2 expos.. . Don't you agree that that worked for him? Then why do you say only 9 gates off 3 base? Though its a decent point you make - if you want to have good macro, every little bit of saving counts and throwing down a whole lot of gateways can be.. a big waste. I think that's part of the secret to NaDa's "mineral hack" - he only builds 6 factories.. very effecient - doesn't throw money around.. except to buy drinks for friends
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On March 30 2005 19:54 MPXMX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2005 16:00 dTrAn wrote:
I tend to add gateways as soon as my expo gets online or when I see that minerals are starting to accumulate and i have more than one unit constantly queued in each... You should amost never pause production to make more gateways/factories... I measure macro by efficiency and if you buildings are not constantly pumping, then you are not being very efficient This is for you and ahk-gosu. This is a decent way, but at a high level it's not good enough, I think. You should add gateways in advance, not when your minerals start to accumulate - that's the thing. THe question is timing. What is it?
dood. im saying. if you cannot support the amount of expos you have running you make gateways.
i didnt say wait for it to go up.
im saying. if you are going to expo, you make enuff gateways to supress the cash flow.
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Some things to note about the game:
-no reason to go 3gate before double expo, 2gate would have been fine.
-his gates were inactive much of the time.
-he was held back by supply at least 2 times that i noticed. He could have had about 160psi at 12:00 if not held back.
-Untill his 12gate massing took effect a more gradual 9gate buildup would have given him more units up to that time, and about the same number of units at 12:00. Though perhaps not as fast 200psi count and not as many gates.
ya it was 12gate at 10min or so. 3base. I think it did work for him well enough as he won. i think his main mistake in the game was that he should defenately have had anther expanson to send probes to after his main ran out. He was only able about to pump 2 rounds out of those 12gates untill he hit 200psi. Then barely able to support carriers and some units. If he had another expo to xfer his probes to his macro would have been rediculous.
for 9gate examples(i believe) check out these games:
http://yaoyuan.com/show.php?SID=34751 - a good example, note the good timeing of the expo after taking his 2nd nat, but he used that and his next expansion poorly. He reallyshould have flanked or taken his 2nd expo somewere else as well.
http://yaoyuan.com/show.php?SID=35060 - pusan, super game i really enjoyed watching this. Has all that i like(would be able to do really :/) in a pvt that i have been describing. 9gate with 3bases->expo->carrier tech and more gates.
http://yaoyuan.com/show.php?SID=34957 - iloveoov vs bul_t, again and intresting gateway game. Shows why its good to add more gates later. Shows why having many 3-4 mineral lines to mine from fast is important.
like i said i think getting the 3bases then 9gates, then massing units for a while, then take another expo and some tech + add more gates. The ilovoov vs megulari(sp) game showed his but the protoss made some crucial mistakes.
Thats all for today, im going to bed. I feel ive said almost all i have to say about this anyway.
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it all depends on various situations but i think the non-stop unit production is better bec it gives you the maximum amount of units in that certain period of time.. so what if your opponent attacks you the moment you are adding more facs or gateways so you have less unit count compared to him who didnt stopped making units. so grot is right add more facilities when you have extra.
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On March 31 2005 02:06 stimpack[pG] wrote:
it all depends on various situations but i think the non-stop unit production is better bec it gives you the maximum amount of units in that certain period of time.. so what if your opponent attacks you the moment you are adding more facs or gateways so you have less unit count compared to him who didnt stopped making units. so grot is right add more facilities when you have extra.
u should see what if's before they occur and should adapt accordingly.
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I usually double my production facilities as my expansion is making so that when its online, i have immidiate double production.
And it's not uncommon for me to skip making 3 zealots from 3 gateways in order to start making an additional 2 gateways. The money spent on zealots that would sit infront of my expo will not benefit anything. The money spent on making earlier gateways so that you can have all 5 zealots waiting at ur expo instead seems to be much wiser.
Timing is everything: Do not attack your opponent until the greatest reward can be reaped. Do not build anything that does not have as close to as immidiate a use as possible.
That should be applied to every single aspect of the game. Constantly doing actions that have immidiate positive effects are innately better than doing actions that do not also have said effects.
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I never gave this enough thought
well I think we can at least all agree that this system is entirely worthless for terran users using mech, because factories are too expensive and take too long to build
I do sometimes build vultures first because they are cheaper and I can add facts faster than if i would have built tanks
I think gateways are so cheap and build so fast that the "window" you're talking about isn't very big at all.. just do it with only 2-3 gates and be safe, the window will be small and you're very sure you can afford the extra gates soon. People used to even regularly get away with carriers, now that's a window
oh and good thread!
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Canada9720 Posts
Grot you said it's "illogical to stop using one gateway to build another" but many people do just that right before an expansion is finished. (which im sure you know).
it makes sense to prepare yourself to be able to keep up unit production with regards to how much money you're taking in.
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I drew a couple of shitty diagrams to illustrate how I think economy works. The thick gray line is your economy right before and after the expansion. It's slanted slightly upwards because you are continuously improving your economy by making more workers. After the expansion, it immediately almost doubles because workers aren't waiting anymore and there are more available mineral patches. And then it improves up at a decent rate (for a while) as you saturate your expansion with workers. Whatever fits under that line is what your economy can support.
-Filled dirty yellow boxes are command centres/nexuses that are constantly producing
-Filled blue boxes are factories/barracks/gateways constantly producing
-Blue outlines are "construction in progress". Facts/gates/raxes take longer to complete than units so symbolically I make them active after 3 "rounds".
So in the first example, you are constantly producing until your expansion comes up, at which point you start adding producing facilities as you have enough money. BUT, you don't want to make more producing facilities than your economy can support (which I made about 7 in this example). I think that create a gapin macro and unit production.
However... if you build production facilities before expo comes up, by sacrificing actual unit production ... Look what could happen
What do you make of this? The second method theoretically leaves no gaps in economy and gives more units
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EDIT: I notice there are some details that are incorrect in the above diagrams - for example, one producing facility disappears after the expo goes online (oops ) or the activation period for Facts/Gates in 2nd diagram is 2 instead of 3, but generally the idea still holds, I think.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img206.exs.cx/img206/6894/econdiagram7ii.jpg)
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