EPT! [Q] Adding Production Facilities - Page 2
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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stimpack[pG]
Philippines88 Posts
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
Thing is though, that as we have discussed here, adding producing facilities gradually is the popular system. But as my theory seems to show, adding many simultaneously is far more effecient in the long run... Therefore it is good to approach that model as close as is possible without being overrun. That can be achieved by for example using stalling tech (such as DT drop PvT) while adding gateways. I don't know, I'm just giving some ideas for your consideration  | ||
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Piro
United States5 Posts
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
gradual shifts, using all of your buildings 100% of the time are the best in the long run. the only time you wouldnt do a gradual shift is when you think you wont survive, so you focus all on units, or on cannons, or whatever. the opposite of this being you can survive so easily, that you stop building units, and build more nexus, probe... but you want to stay as close to gradual as possible edit: one more comment. if you are constantly making probes and as many nexus as you want, then it doesnt matter how quickly you add your gates. if in the end, gradual or not, you are gonna have 8 gateways and x amount of minerals mined, then you're gonna have the same amount of units. however if you add 5 gateways and sacrifice a nexus/probes during that time, then you'll have more units than the gradual player sooner.. but the gradual will eventually come out ahead with the minerals he gained that you lost out on. conclusion: the closer you can get to gradual and smooth, using your judgment based on the specific game you're in, the better you'll be in the long run. | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Any specific comments about when to add facts/gates (e.g. expo is half done, units are building in existing facilities, add 2, expo up, add 2 more) ? Okay, I made an example replay to showcase my overall game plan in PvT. Check battlereports.com Key points are: -2gate->expo->expo -add 2 gates so i can pump units so opponent can not overrun me. -add citadel and 5gates start mass zeal production. stop probes and make units, pylons. -time expanson so i can transfer probes in my main to anther mineral line to keep up macro. Tech to carriers. Time is about 13:30, im maxed out. 4 nexi(right?) Can begin to produce 2 carriers as soon as i lower my psi count enough, heh. This is pretty much as good as it gets, as far as i know... at least for now. The only significant things i forgot were to add a forge sooner so i could have +1 around the time i want to attack as well as cannnons perhaps. Also, ild probably want a shuttle. Sure expoing 2 time with no gates then massing them all up is more effective in the end, but i do want to survive in the meantime. MPXMX you post concerting the diagrams is correct. Thats what this thread has been about and we are basically agreed. Doing the best gameplan for macro without getting overrun is best for macro, but perhaps not best for winning the game which leads to my points bellow. We both know that we are not taking certain things into account though(like micro), which is why its good to ge a real game example. I have posted some expamle reps and a rep of my own. We are not taking into account the other player much, and if he manages his units better then hell likely win even though your macro was more effective. using all of your buildings 100% of the time are the best in the long run. This is just not practical. Sometimes one must decide if they want a probe building now and then a goon or the opposite. But, you are right in that you should not build 3gates when 2 will do before an expansion (note the anytime vs gloomy rep).edit: one more comment. if you are constantly making probes and as many nexus as you want, then it doesnt matter how quickly you add your gates. if in the end, gradual or not, you are gonna have 8 gateways and x amount of minerals mined, then you're gonna have the same amount of units. Yes, but timing plays a very important role in a real game. however if you add 5 gateways and sacrifice a nexus/probes during that time, then you'll have more units than the gradual player sooner.. but the gradual will eventually come out ahead with the minerals he gained that you lost out on. conclusion: the closer you can get to gradual and smooth, using your judgment based on the specific game you're in, the better you'll be in the long run. Yes, if the opponent trys some risky build(say dt tech) is not able to take a large advange( enough to win the game) you are pretty much guaranteed to win. The other way around is if the opponent is able to macro well enough and is able to beat you anyway because of his unit choice, micro, etc.Ive been using pvt as an example the whole time because its just soooo much easier to deal with then pvp or pvz. | ||
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stimpack[pG]
Philippines88 Posts
result is you have 8-10 tanks and 6facs creating vulture... this works well for me if P responds to double expo and your expo is little ahead than his.. and assuming hes not going reavers or DTs.. | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
Stimpack's post counters your example rep, Knickknack.. If we lived in an ideal world on the other hand... yeah that's what protoss would like to be able to do | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
I admit, if terran does 1fact expo then masses hard it will be difficult to deal with....if you have iloveoovs macro. But, what he heck else are you goign to do? not double expo? The terran will just add another cc fast if hes good and screw you over later. Yes vs 1fact expo iloveoov maco is very difficult to deal with but dont make it seem impossible. 1 fact expo is pretty damn filthy on LT. If i suspect the opponent will do it I may just go for a fast 2z/goon drop->reaver drop->dt drop and hope the positions are close. | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
I think PvT vs 1 fact expo is pretty easy on most levels except the very highest, because the protoss can play his own game. But we are beginning to stray away from the topic - "when to add facts/gates?" and just general macro. I agree that constant production while gradually adding producing facilities, logically seems effective - as a rule - without going into the many details and situational specifics. However there are things in this world that are outside of common sense logic, beneath the obvious. Don't know if there are such applications in SC macro but it would certainly be interesting to find something. i lost my trale of thoutgh.. pvz's GYA.,.. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
I think 1fact expo is in many cases the best build for a terran to do on LT. That's pretty evident by ilooeoovs success with it. If you look at pgtour though much[gm] is getting the better of iloveoov. Sc is preset. Its got its timing and stats. Its all logic. Perhaps if i was a genius i could come up with some system for working out the best build for almost every situation.....too bad. :p Giving out useful info in PvZ, pvp are much more micro intensive and counter intensive then pvt. I don't really want to deal with them besides generalities like what I said about 2gate->expo before. Ah well, ill attempt some about pvp, but its not just going to be about pure macro. The first decision of course is to 2gate or to 1gate tech. If only one 2gates usually the other will stick up a 2nd gate. So they are on equal terms that way. If they both 2gate then it may turn into a mass zealot game, but i think its usually wisest to be the one that gasses up faster. 1gate tech is hard to get a handle on because there are ~6variations that have to do with going zeals out of one gate. Though, the option to go gate before range or robo is always present. I believe a major decision about the game should be made after one has 2 gates. Ill assume the toss does not have range or robo yet. Now, he can stick up a 3rd gate, or go rane or robo or even dt/ht tech. I think the option to go for a 3rd gate is almost never, if ever, the best option. The only hope a 3gate goon build has against a 2gate build is to just overwhealm the opponents forces. If the opponent keeps up in macro and micros well its really no trouble. The problem comes if a 2gate person mismanages his units -- then he can get screwed over. Well, thats a bit, but i dont think thats quite what your looking for so ill stop for now. Anyway, i think this has been a good thread. I have not really learned much from it but I enjoyed the discussion and hope others got some useful info out of it. Though, i somehow doubt this. :/ | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
Thanks anyway; hoping to hear from more people | ||
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WickeD
Slovakia789 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Perfect timing entails that they have the timing down to the second. I doubt this. I have the first 5:00 or so of the game down but after that I think in generalities such as 2gate->expo->expo, etc as i showed above. I'm guessing this is how they do it, but they have much more experience then me so it translates into the game more exactly. [/quote]If a protoss goes double nexus vs this and gradualy adds gates he will lose simply because the terran will attack with a mighty force and the protoss will have gates and probes instead of units.[/quote] ive been over this. Its hard to deal with but not an auto-lose... I dont think the problem is so much the toss gets caught off guard usually(we have obs...) but that the massive terran blob is really hard to deal with with just zeal/goon. The strength of the fast expo build is that its generally very safe. It is great for macro and you can choose to mass hard after getting your expo or to expo again fast. Also, many protoss players dont expand early enough which gives the terran the advantage almost right off the bat. This thread is starting to be about 1fact expo, heh. | ||
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imRadu
1798 Posts
O_X | ||
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Chris307
3095 Posts
On April 01 2005 03:41 imRadu wrote: im a pirate!!!!! O_X The best pirate I've ever seen | ||
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RedMeat
United Kingdom490 Posts
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mattmercury
United Kingdom109 Posts
 for effort. i normally just add gateways as i get more money as its more convenient i find, perhaps n00b though. | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
It didn't take that long. I tried to make up a system to realistically illustrate economy, and I think that works. | ||
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