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[M] (2) Nightmare Hollow

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
Post a Reply
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-08 23:09:01
June 03 2011 06:32 GMT
#1
Nightmare Hollow
Version 1.1 (After much work and love by FenX, the version submitted to MotM #9)
I would love feedback on the new version <3.

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More Images
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Vitals:
-Two Spawn 1v1 map
-14 Bases (2 Gold)
-Marco Oriented
-Two Natural Expansions, both with tradeoffs
-Second Natural defended by rocks
-Inbase Xel'Naga tower watches the rocks

Building Placements
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Creep Spread
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Description
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Protoss can get three bases rather swiftly, but the bases they chose provide vulnerabilities. If they decide to take the pocket natural first they will become vulnerable when expanding to the open natural. Start taking down the rocks, and when they do try to expand they will have to spread their army thin to defend. Expanding to the open natural first is harder due to the open nature of the expansion and abusable cliffs, something you can use to your advantage to punish their greed.

Air harass is strong on this map due to the layout of the bases (3 mineral lines close together and accessible by air) and the long rush distances, so phoenix openings may be more viable than the average map. For harass lategame I saw 4KExO place a Phase Prism on the Xel'Naga like hallway, sending 3 zealots to the raised, gold, and natural expansions.

Zerg can expand swiftly. Be ware, any fast expanding on your part will often be met with a double-expand from them. Pressure to punish them and keep then from properly droning to 3 full base, or surprise them with a powerful 1-base push. Parts of the middle are wide open, so keep your back to a cliff or the acid pools in the center, and beware of counterattacks. Also, there are plenty of lovely high-ground patches for Zergs to place their overlords. Don't build your tech at your ramp if you don't want it to get scouted, or make sure to clear the overlord off the nearby high ground.

Terran have many options for early-game pressure. There is an almost lost-temple like high ground next to the open natural and I'm sure terrans will have plenty of fun with that. Or, they can even forgo Medivacs and begin their assault on the open natural by placing tanks on the raised expansion. Due to the layout of the bases, banshee harass is strong throughout every stage of the game. Siege tanks can be used to lockdown defense, but late-game favors mobile army compositions due to the size of the map and the strength of two-pronged hit-and-run harass. Locking down the defense with a several extra Planetary Fortresses can lock down their side of the map and free up the terran army to get aggressive. Building a stupid amount of barracks can help replenish harassing armies with a zerg-like efficiency -- after all, there are a lot of bases on this map, you'll probably be able to afford it.

All
The in-base Xel'Naga plays a critical role in adding stability to the map. Most maps with back door rocks (Jungle Basin, Blistering Sands) are trash, and create an "oh crap" moment where a poorer player can win through silly shenanigans. Not only is the defense of the back door easier here (especially if you don't take the pocket natural), but the Xel'Naga give you forewarning and army composition. Once the rocks are down, the Xel'Naga gives you forewarning if the attacker doesn't take the long way around to harass. It also reduces the air threat like muta harass, forcing the mutas to take longer paths around to hit the base lest the tower scout them. So don't forget to use it! (Also, Protoss, you can place a pylon next to the destructible rocks and warp in to their pocket natural, but the Xel'Naga tower will scout it. If you know they don't have the tower, though...)

The raised expansion has a gas near the cliff facing the enemy. This vulnerability can be exploited by all three races, sniping off the extractor and limiting the player's gas income. Unlike Tal'Darim alter, however, this is a 3rd/4th expansion, so the effect is less extreme while being easier to execute.

And one final note on the gold, watch for ninja expands there. They're not on the main path or rocked, so it might just happen. But, if you or your opponent does take the gold, defenses will be stretched thin: it's a LONG walk distance to defend the gold and the back of your main base.

Aaand an image illustrating the choice for 3-basing based on what natural expansion you took.
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Aesthetics (By FenX)
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Change Log
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Since version 0.7:
-The unpathable high ground near the ramp to the main has been moved back, forcing the Zerg player to reveal his overlord to scout structures used to wall off.
-Serious scouting concerns for Zerg arose due to the amount of build space in the main and pocket expansions, and because the inbase Xel'naga limits the angles a Zerg can scout from. To resolve this, unpathable high ground has been added on the outside of the pocket expansion, allowing A Zerg to float his overlord there similar to The Shattered Temple.
- The ramp to the raised expansion outside of the choke has been been shifted to point in, allowing Terran to defend a bit easier due to the nigh-impossibility of slow-pushing on this map. (Tal'Darime Altar style pushing is still viable, though.)
- The center has been made just a bit more choke-y. Originally zerg could get extremely easy surrounds. The new one makes pushes somewhat less risky.
- A center expansion added, allowing Terran and Protoss to expand toward their opponent. (Terrans really were in a lot of trouble on this map in version .7!).
- Extra space around the gold was removed, and the gold base move a little bit closer to the opponent. This makes it a bit harder to defend fpr terrans (less of a choke), and creates a more tight and efficient map.
-The pocket base has been moved closer toward the center, removing wasted space and making a more tight and efficient map.
-The water areas between the main base and the center have been made larger. Originally, protoss could wrap around and crush any force threatening their back rocks, trapping the other player. With the wrap-around travel time increased, the attacker has time to retreat if he scouts it and is quick.
-To that end, a second retreat path has been added from the base outside the pocket expansion. This allows faster access to the enemies gold, as well.

And half a dozen more small tweaks...


Search "Nightmare Hollow" on NA and EU :D
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
June 03 2011 07:11 GMT
#2
i dont know whats up with all these loop around deals... but that middle is cute You shall not PASS!
StimedSheep
Profile Joined October 2010
United States51 Posts
June 03 2011 13:10 GMT
#3
I like the look of this map but it feels like the lines of movement are a little constricted. What servers is it loaded on I would love to play on it and be able to make better informed comments.
Gfire
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1699 Posts
June 03 2011 14:42 GMT
#4
I'm not sure about the backdoor expansions. I think that is a huge vulnerability in the bases. It doesn't really make sense to open up that area as the defender. Where the other side of the base comes out is very far from the rest of the expansions you would be taking, so it wouldn't be easy to defend at all. I think it would be really hard to defend the back door rocks.

Other than that, it seems fairly solid. I guess the golds feel a little too far from the center for golds. Keke, I like what you did with the watchtower, I thought of something like that a long time ago but have yet to implement it.
all's fair in love and melodies
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-03 20:21:37
June 03 2011 17:13 GMT
#5
@StimmedSheep: It's NA, I should clarify that ^_^

@Gfire: The dynamics of the map are a bit unique. If you have map control, you can expand anywhere that strikes your fancy. But if you don't, I've seen its best to expand along the path of the open natural to the blue fourth, and then the the protected natural when you need a fourth. This is because if you take the protected natural, it's difficult to place your army in an area to defend all three bases.

You can take the protected natural for a two-base timing push, though, taking advantage of its added early-game security. It becomes a liability in the mid-game, however, if you lose map control.

However, you might be surprised how much the potential volatility of this map is reduced by the in-base Xel'Naga. It's a game changer, and makes this "two primary attack paths" possible, when otherwise it could easily become too volatile.

As for the gold, its position allows for a "ninja expansion" a bit more easily on most maps. But, because you already have two attack paths to your main base, taking the gold severely increases the issue of army placement: three attack paths at the furthest points of the map. It doesn't have to be near th center to be dangerous.

@WniO: LOL
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-04 10:34:22
June 04 2011 06:13 GMT
#6
Of the 3 masters-level players that have played on it for several series, every one likes it (two were random peeps). Of the diamonds, most like it, but two decided they don't want to play on it again. One lost his first match and didn't want to play it again, and the second was practicing for a tournament.

It would be a lot more useful to find people who didn't like it for specific reasons. -__- ^_^

Anyway, replays coming soon. I could use some tips, gents and ladies. Even ideas for where to add doodads to pretty it up, because right now it's mostly just texture. ...I'm thinking about changing the spawn bases to the dark, tiled texture like that raised fourth. That way, all the high-ground is darker. A good change?

Would a mod kindly change the name to "[M] (2) Nightmare Hollow"
lovablemikey
Profile Joined October 2010
264 Posts
June 04 2011 18:31 GMT
#7
It seems a little "chokey." I think a Zerg would have less fun on this map. Unless they're in the middle, Zergs will be running through tight areas. I would widen some of the paths. Otherwise, nice map.
Premier
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States503 Posts
June 04 2011 19:27 GMT
#8
Hm, I'm iffy on the backdoor expansions, maybe making those islands would be better GL
Picture Me Rollin' - DJ Premier, Titan of the Tables
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-04 21:18:09
June 04 2011 20:46 GMT
#9
Good concerns guys, and ones I've had myself. Though, in play testing thus far, not a single Zerg has complained about the chokes. All the pictures are zoomed out, so perhaps it appears more "chokey" than it is. Also, unlike most chokes on maps, there are three paths across the map, making a true contain impossible.

As for the back base, paradoxically, I've observed it providing more stability than volatility. Canon rushes to block expands are rendered less effective, because a Zerg can simply cancel the hatch in that natural and build in the other natural. Because taking the third (that is, taking both of your naturals) is slightly safer than taking a third on most maps, the map exhibits more stability in the early-mid game. Jungle Basin had an extremely hard third to take not matter where you paced it, and rocks in the back that were, while not easy to exploit, occasionally problematic. With the nature of the third I've observed on this map, and with the in-base Xel'Naga, little volatility has been observed.

Thanks guys for your concerns! If you spot any more, please tell me so I can mark them on the list of things to investigate. If not, I hope you get a chance to enjoy some games on it.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10107 Posts
June 04 2011 21:45 GMT
#10
yay xelnaga caverns!!!! xD.

the backdoor expansion im concerned about, however the rest of the map feels good to be. maybe making the backdoor something else? different placement?
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-05 00:24:09
June 05 2011 00:20 GMT
#11
Massive update of the original post with a name poll, and showing my discoveries in obs-ing. Enjoy ^_^
IronManSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2119 Posts
June 05 2011 01:00 GMT
#12
I don't like the positioning of the golds. They look and feel too safe and hidden, and they should be vulnerable to the opponent at the very least. I would put the golds on the high ground and then widen the high-ground ramps.
SC2 Mapmaker || twitter: @ironmansc || Ohana & Mech Depot || 3x TLMC finalist || www.twitch.tv/sc2mapstream
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
June 05 2011 02:13 GMT
#13
Did you read the explanation on the vulnerability of the gold bases? The one near the bottom of the spoiler'd analyse?
Antares777
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1971 Posts
June 05 2011 02:46 GMT
#14
After looking at your analysis, I'd like to clarify two things: Jungle Basin was removed from the map pool because it offered bland 2 base gameplay because the natural was really easy and the third was way too hard to take, not because it favored the attacker; and favoring the defender when he has 3(+) expansions is not necessarily a good thing.

On your map, expanding is so easy. The easiest base is the natural, of course, because it's an in-base expansion. The third is also relatively easy, and the fourth is so easy to take and defend. The enemy cannot cliff it because the path around back is not close enough, and there's only one ramp, which is right in front of the third's choke. The only way the enemy can really do anything is if an army somehow sneaks up the choked ramp and then attacks. Your army can then just move up the ramp, and now he's trapped. The high yield expansion is rather away from main routes and the middle and has no rocks blocking it, which is weird for a gold expansion. I don't know what I'd do with it. And the expansion outside the natural's backdoor is also in a weird location. I guess it could be a potential fourth/fifth or late game expansion, but like the gold and fourth, it only has one entrance for the attackers. This promotes turtling.

If I'd have to pick a race that would do well on this map, it would be Protoss by a longshot. Since the expansions are all so easy, Protoss will be able to get a large ball relatively fast. Protoss is really hard to engage head on because of the FFs and Colossi. A lot of players beat Protoss by forcing them to divide their army (dropping the main while attacking the natural). This is impossible with a XWT inside the main. This should never be done. XWTs do not belong inside the main base! It promotes turtling way too much.

Sorry if I'm coming off a bit harsh, but this map promotes turtling a bit heavily. You might want to read "The Spectator Factor" (nobody wants to watch a game with both players turtling, that thread might help a little, and it has a few cool stuff as well) and "Base Vulnerabilites and You", which I think will help a lot in balancing expansions.
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
June 05 2011 04:18 GMT
#15
Thank you for your post! Unfortunately, I have not been able to get a master protoss to play any games on it yet. I will watch for the concerns you mention. Placing an outward facing ramp on the raised 4th may be just the thing, if something needs to change.

As for the XWT, if you look at its radius, drops are still very possible in the guarded natural, with the lower half of the guarded natural not visible to the XWT and plenty of room to fly around its vision.

Air harass is quite powerful on this map, thanks to the close-by-air positions of the main, guarded natural, and open natural, and raised fourth mineral lines. In addition to the limits of the XWT, two-pronged attacks (one through the rocks to draw the army, and then one to hit the open natural from either of the two attack paths) are easier to execute than a drop and have proven quite effective against a turtly player.

However, this is all theory in regards to protoss, so I'll need to test it before making claims. PvZ does have me a bit concerned.

I will read those articles, thanks.
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 17:27:45
September 07 2011 04:27 GMT
#16
UPDATED TO VERSION 1.1
Updated the thread to the version submitted to Map of the Month #9, added a clearer strategy discussion, more pics, and gave credit to FenX for his fantastic aesthetics. Yay!
MaestroSC
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2073 Posts
September 07 2011 06:04 GMT
#17
Just a personal preference, but I dont like having 2 ramps into the main, ever.

Maybe if it was a cliff or a gap protecting the back base I would feel differently, but atm I just dont appreciate having a main with 2 ramps.

In my opinion expansions need to stretch you farther and farther from your comfort zone, and towards your opponent, bringing the game in a forward motion.

On this map you take your actual natural, then you expand backwards away from your enemy. Ground armys will not be able to protect your natural and 3rd on this map from air, period.

And this is from a player who plays with a mutas in 75% of his games.

I would just eliminate that 3rd, eliminate that path, get rid of that 2nd ramp.

Also I dont agree with XWT in the mains, but thats just my opinion. The enemy SHIOULD never hold it, and having a XWT that you control nonstop, you might as well just gem them permanent vision of that area on the map, and not worry about XWT's.

But if you got rid of the back 3rd, getting rid of the XWT's in the main would seem like an obvious decision, since all you would see is your own main.

If you get rid of the back 3rd, every expo gets less safe, as you expand and progresses the game forwards.

Just my .02.
The aesthetics are awsome too.
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-15 17:51:19
September 07 2011 17:21 GMT
#18
I love discussion, so keep it coming. Now, let me fire some stuff back ^_^

In my opinion expansions need to stretch you farther and farther from your comfort zone, and towards your opponent, bringing the game in a forward motion.

Every expansion makes you more vulnerably by spreading you horizontally thin. Terran can capitalize by expanding toward their enemy, but other races are put at a disadvantage when that is forced (Scrap Station). So it does take you out of your comfortzone, but not by putting you at the enemy's doorstep, but by making you vulnerable to multi-pronged attacks and harass.

My hope behind that is that it will make for very entertaining matches XD.

On this map you take your actual natural, then you expand backwards away from your enemy. Ground armys will not be able to protect your natural and 3rd on this map from air, period.
I don't understand. Do you mean take your pocket natural, or your open natural? And what is the "third" in this case, the other natural or the raised expansion? Or the base outside the pocket natural?

Just a personal preference, but I dont like having 2 ramps into the main, ever.

I would just eliminate that 3rd, eliminate that path, get rid of that 2nd ramp.

Also I dont agree with XWT in the mains, but thats just my opinion. The enemy SHIOULD never hold it, and having a XWT that you control nonstop, you might as well just gem them permanent vision of that area on the map, and not worry about XWT's.
In every map done by Blizzard with 2 main ramps they have done it poorly. In Blistering Sands the attacker could bounce back and forth between the entrances in 1/3 the time the defender could, totally crippling two-base play. Jungle Basin was broken for a lot of reason (the enemy could siege the natural and the main ramp at the same time, the back rocks didn't serve as a viable exit from the base as you'd leave it far too undefended before you could do anything about it, thirds were nearly impossible for non-terrans to take).

The XWT in the base is at the heart of what I hope is innovation for this mechanic. In testing it has show to do the following:
A) Adds stability through early warning
B) Lets you see the unit composition of the enemy, forcing them to tip their hand if they're trying to push through the back
C) Balances the strength of Air Harass on this map by forcing players to take the "long way around" if they wish to move about unscouted.
D) Offers a choice with trade-offs for high level players: "how early do I take the tower?" Some may try to go the game without it, and so gain an early economic boost. In some strategies its worth committing a unit there, and other's it's not.

Having two naturals is also part of the innovation here. Things like canon rushing, bunker rushing, or roach-ling all-ins are less powerful. The first two are less powerful because the player can expand to the opposing natural. They'll still be at a disadvantage, but it's not nearly so drastic. The last one is reduced in power since Protoss can fast expand to the pocket natural for a greater early game defensive strength (the trade-off being that 3 bases are much harder to hold when one takes the pocket natural).

In addition, there are a lot of terrain features that would have to be changed if I removed the pocket expansion and that path. For instance, the open natural has a small bit of Lost Temple like high ground where drop shenanigans can occur. This is balanced by the fact that the player has the option to expand to a much safer, though less rewarding, pocket natural early game. The cliff shenanigans on Lost Temple made for very entertaining games to watch, but was certainly broken. This reintroduces a less potent version of that dynamic while allowing players to forego the risk if they wish.

To summarize:
1) The Xel'Naga tower adds stability to the backdoor mechanic
2) Even without the Xel'Naga tower, the backdoor on Nightmare Hollow functions differently than that of any Blizzard map -- less "attacker's advantage".
3) The Xel'Naga tower provides a small but interesting choice for high-level players, making the map more dynamic
4) Two naturals provide stability, and a large and interesting choice for players, making the map more dynamic
5) It offers a non-linear expansion progression even beyond chosing your natural, making the map more dynamic (adding the variety of both what players get to play on, and what the crowd gets to see).

That's why they are there. I feel removing them would remove the map's innovation and make it not but an "okay" standard map (lacking the refinement of maps intended to be standard from the get-go). The goal here isn't to rehash what the map making community already knows how to do right, but to bring something new and better (and in strategy games I always think choice is), and try to make it balanced. Testing thus far seems to indicate that it is balanced, although I'll be the first to admit that it will probably need tweaking down the road after it's been played a few hundred times.

If you could please clarify your point I didn't understand, and if I've missed some concern make sure to point it out! I'm not trying to be argumentative, but everything has a lot of thought behind it and a reason for being there. I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts, and I'm not trying to shoot you down or anything.

<3
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