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I think the title says it all. Well most of it.
My question here is, I cannot think of any sensible use for the neosteel frame upgrade at all, unlike any other upgrade in SC2(and unit, since Mothership is now used for the harass into recall and the infamous Archon toilet).
The next best thing I am unsure about would be 250mm cannon, but even this was proven to be usable to counter immortals in certain circumstances.
Now back to the neosteel frame upgrade. It increases bunker capacity by 2 and doubles scv capacity in CCs and PFs.
Now it doesn´t actually increase bunker health, it only increases concentration or density of firepower or however you would call that.
So it kind of increases the offensive potential of bunkers...
Plainly said, I cannot think of a scenario in which you couldn´t just built another bunker next to a bunker to increase effectiveness or use turrets/siege tanks/vikings for much greater effect.
In case of defence you would simply build more bunkers. In case of offence, I don´t think it is really viable to build bunkers offensively outside of aggressive openings against early expansions, at which point you will not have an engineering bay and you will not have finished a 110 second research either.
I heard the rumor, that scvs could repair a CC/PF from the inside, but I think thats just a silly rumor. If you bring this up, please prove it.
tl;dr version:
Bunker upgrades will never finish in time for common bunker rushes.
For defence it sounds much more sensible to get turrets, siege tanks or adding more bunkers instead of spending 100/100 and waiting for 110 seconds for the second/third best upgrade for bunkers(first place of course going to building armor).
Can someone else think of a sensible scenario for getting the upgrade, in which it helps in a way nothing else could do for same time/price?
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Warp prism speed upgrade?
zergling adrenal glands?
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I only see their use as storm shelters for super hard contains and ultra slow pushes in TvP. If firebats were in the game still, you could make a legitimate argument for using them against Zerg.
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for bronze level players
bunker capacity increase? wow that really increases my turtling power
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Maybe in late game against toss when you want to protect your bio ball. but I think it's a much better combo if you have the +2 to buildings and this one.
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theyre actually really good against muta harass if you have +3 armor on your turrets they last a whole lot longer and it negates the muta bounce. thats what its in the game for. It reduces muta damage by 33%
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On January 30 2011 12:46 MegaBUD wrote:
Warp prism speed upgrade?
zergling adrenal glands?
I get adrenal glands every game that goes past the 10 min mark and isn't some kind of cheese to deliberately end the game quickly. Sure it's not as good as it was in brood war, but it still makes a 25 mineral unit much more cost effective.
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Because in some maps, you won't be able to fit two bunkers in a spot that actually cover each other. We don't have any of those maps at the moment though.
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On January 30 2011 12:46 MegaBUD wrote:
Warp prism speed upgrade?
zergling adrenal glands?
Both of these are just small increases in a units ability, which when games begin to get much longer, and where the slightest "edge" is needed, these upgrades will help with that.
However, bunker upgrades will not, since bunkers are basically free. If bunkers wern't a 100% salvage return, then there might be a point in improving them.
Also, Perhaps if one got this upgrade, it would make the bunker "massive", and not FF-able (to block scv repairs, one would have to force field not touching the bunker.)
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On January 30 2011 12:46 MegaBUD wrote:
Warp prism speed upgrade?
zergling adrenal glands?
Warp prism speed upgrade can be used to increase effectiveness of warp prism harass. Can´t name who, but I think I saw a professional do it.
Zergling adrenal glands isn´t as good as the equivalent of BW, but I saw quite a number of people going for Ultra/Ling get this upgrade.
The circumstances may be very specific, but I can at least THINK of a reason to get those upgrades.
As for island maps, wouldn´t range upgraded missile turrets or simple vikings not be just as effective(greater range)?
Also even then I would think that two bunkers instead of one would still do the trick without using the ebay for this, which also upgrades infantry weapons, auto tracking and building armor which I personally think are all better.
I could be wrong though, I´m just a lowly platinum random.
edit:
On January 30 2011 12:50 Dubz wrote:
theyre actually really good against muta harass if you have +3 armor on your turrets they last a whole lot longer and it negates the muta bounce. thats what its in the game for. It reduces muta damage by 33%
Wrong upgrade, and building armor is gold against zerg. We´re talking about bunker capacity.
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Its really kind of hard to theroycraft stuff like this. It might turn out years later that neosteel is complete unless; or it could turn out to be a extreamly cost effective upgrade mid to late game.
But were not there yet and it's going to be a while before the pro's have the same grasp of the game that they had with sc1 where they can really look into some of the funky stuff in sc2.
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The upgrade seems to be aimed at lower league players, specifically extreme turtlers. It might be good for island maps, though a medivac will probably be a more economical option. I don't see it ever becoming viable in a high level game, unless one of the players has money to burn just for fun. I could see late-game upgraded offensive bunkers be the new BM fashion.
However, it's a great upgrade in the campaign.
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Its a waste of money. The armour upgrade for buildings is much more worth it as it takes noticeably more muta and voidray hits to kill it.
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Well if you have a larger army but not large enough to outright counter an attack by your opponent on your base, you can get more bang for your bunker buck by falling back into the bunker to extended the life span and damage of a larger portion of your army. Protect 6 Marines instead of 4 for example. Or maybe 3 Marauders?
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i use it in TvZ often. if i find myself on 3/4 bases and the map doesnt allow me to easily defend myself and the zerg is using alot of mutas, neosteel frame is awesome.
it also makes PF untouchable against zerglings.
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I dunno, really... maybe if you plan on taking both islands? It costs the same as a medivac though...
I guess it could be made better if they increased the cost, but it also increased bunker health?
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On January 30 2011 12:55 hellsan631 wrote:
However, bunker upgrades will not, since bunkers are basically free. If bunkers wern't a 100% salvage return, then there might be a point in improving them.
You assume that you will have time to salvage the bunker. It's not free if your opponent blows it up.
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Also, if you have the money, its better to invest it in something like a bunker that you can salvage because have 6 spots in a bunker can't hurt. When going for a mid game contain stuffing more units into fewer bunkers ties up less minerals in bunkers at any given time and increases the output of damage in that effective area. Although, yeah it would really not be a priority upgrade from the get go.
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The only time I find it viable at high level play (you're right it takes to long to upgrade)
Is maybe vs a toss on like LT or XelNaga were I fast expo and really need 3-4 bunkers to hold a 4gate/1robo strong push. Besides that I can't think of ever needing it vs Terran and maybe even vs zerg. Maybe a good bunker tank push vs a Toss mid game it could also be useful but not sure.
Not trying to derail your thread but I also think the Terran armor upgrade should give a slight reduce to splash. E.I. things like banelings/tanks/colossus should do like 30% less damage with that upgrade.
@philibird thats interesting. So do you put a bunker in the mineral line with 6 marines in it? I'm thinking this could be maybe even more effective thana few turrets for the same price or less.
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EPT
