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The upgrade increases the capacity of your bunkers by two slots and this increases the dps of the bunker by 50%. Theoretically this sounds great, but in reality your bunker doesnt move and needs wayyy more space than the units inside need on the battlefield. Thus it seems bad and only marginally useful.
Personally I think it will not have any usefulness until we get to see "bunker containment strategies" in a GSL. Those are pretty useless due to the HUGE advantages of mobility, the not-so-greatness of the siege tanks and the smallness of many maps.
One thing which I came up with is the increased capacity for SCVs inside a Planetary Fortress, which could be used when the PF or the SCVs are under attack to interrupt the targeting on the workers for a short moment, but loading and unloading probably takes too long. So this is another "once in a blue moon" event which makes the upgrade totally useless.
The bottom line is that it needs to be redesigned or taken out of the game ...
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On January 30 2011 13:33 Nizzy wrote:
The only time I find it viable at high level play (you're right it takes to long to upgrade)
Is maybe vs a toss on like LT or XelNaga were I fast expo and really need 3-4 bunkers to hold a 4gate/1robo strong push. Besides that I can't think of ever needing it vs Terran and maybe even vs zerg. Maybe a good bunker tank push vs a Toss mid game it could also be useful but not sure.
Not trying to derail your thread but I also think the Terran armor upgrade should give a slight reduce to splash. E.I. things like banelings/tanks/colossus should do like 30% less damage with that upgrade.
@philibird thats interesting. So do you put a bunker in the mineral line with 6 marines in it? I'm thinking this could be maybe even more effective thana few turrets for the same price or less.
The cost of a bunker + marines on standby to get in seems to be more expensive. Plus you don't get detection and eat up supply. Your going to keep 4-6 marines nearby or in the bunker or maintain a mobile force to fall back into it at times? I don't really play Terran, so this could totally work and I am missing something obvious, but at first glance, I dunno.
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Honestly you can achieve the exact same result just having the money spent on units and putting them behind the bunkers to be able to shoot while the bunker tanks the hit. 2 Extra spaces in a bunker does nothing to improve it's offense(imo) or defense. The bunker is a defensive tool and adding more units inside it doesn't help it defend better.
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Hm yeah the upgrade sounds nice but you bring up a good point; anyways you can just salvage bunkers so the increase in effect may not be as high as one would think
However, just noticed... the thing about getting it for bunker rush? haha sounds impossible but it sounds like there could be at least 1 way to do it in at least 1 situation where you could win the game. But yeah nevermind in that case it would probably be better to rush bunker + armor upgrade. But idk how long that takes, so i'll research. May be I can come up with something? xD altho probably not
Edit: Also, lol at the Archon Toilet! Thanks for telling me, I realized what you must have meant, checked out a video, and LOL'd. I'd like to do that sometime xD
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On January 30 2011 13:39 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 13:33 Nizzy wrote:
The only time I find it viable at high level play (you're right it takes to long to upgrade)
Is maybe vs a toss on like LT or XelNaga were I fast expo and really need 3-4 bunkers to hold a 4gate/1robo strong push. Besides that I can't think of ever needing it vs Terran and maybe even vs zerg. Maybe a good bunker tank push vs a Toss mid game it could also be useful but not sure.
Not trying to derail your thread but I also think the Terran armor upgrade should give a slight reduce to splash. E.I. things like banelings/tanks/colossus should do like 30% less damage with that upgrade.
@philibird thats interesting. So do you put a bunker in the mineral line with 6 marines in it? I'm thinking this could be maybe even more effective thana few turrets for the same price or less. The cost of a bunker + marines on standby to get in seems to be more expensive. Plus you don't get detection and eat up supply. Your going to keep 4-6 marines nearby or in the bunker or maintain a mobile force to fall back into it at times? I don't really play Terran, so this could totally work and I am missing something obvious, but at first glance, I dunno.
@Torpedo.Vegas
No your post raises legit concerns. Philibird is a pretty high level terran, I'm positive he's top 200 on NA so I'm wondering how he uses it. I'm sure its really dependant on maps. Maybe Jungle in the middle it could be useful, but I agree totally it limits your mobility and obviously costs supply.
Maybe they should just reduce the research time. =/
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On January 30 2011 12:43 Mataza wrote:
My question here is, I cannot think of any sensible use for the neosteel frame upgrade at all, unlike any other upgrade in SC2(and unit, since Mothership is now used for the harass into recall and the infamous Archon toilet).
I think the Medivac starting energy is a strong contender for Most Useless Upgrade.  Caduceus Reactor
Maybe the bunker upgrade could be used for the CC/PF space? You could use it to carry more SCVs to an island expo without having to ferry them with medivacs, or shelter workers at a PF from hellions / HTs while the cannon cleans them up. The bunker space itself seems absolutely useless. Single-player upgrade.
Really, I wish they made bunkers 50% salvage at the start, and then Neosteel makes them return 100%. Would help reduce the zero-risk bunker rushing we see in early game TvZ without affecting late game too much.
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On January 30 2011 12:46 MegaBUD wrote:
Warp prism speed upgrade? Use it all the time, it's fairly cheap and great for some late game action. After extendeds and observer speed are done. I sometimes also get observer speed before extended thermal lances because ... ghasp ... I don't use the colossus in every game.
zergling adrenal glands? Now why is this useless? It's almost dps times 1.2, that's a great additive in late game when you're already maxed on upgrades.
And neosteel frame has a very obvious use if you want to fly to an island.
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On January 30 2011 13:50 Talack wrote:
Honestly you can achieve the exact same result just having the money spent on units and putting them behind the bunkers to be able to shoot while the bunker tanks the hit. 2 Extra spaces in a bunker does nothing to improve it's offense(imo) or defense. The bunker is a defensive tool and adding more units inside it doesn't help it defend better.
Well, it increases the survival rate of the units inside the Bunker. 6 marines inside a Bunker=6 marines not taking damage from storm/bannelings.
Personally I've been trying to implement them to my TvZ where I do a slow push with Bunkers and tanks.Bunkers and Marines cost minerals while Bannelings cost Gas.
/my2cents
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Wow, I actually forgot the medivac energy upgrade^^ Hehe
So there are 2 upgrades I can´t make sense of.
Personally I never used the "store scv" on a pfortress. Dunno, if there are mutas, scvs are better repairing turrets. Storms are killing fast, so I think you´d need super reflexes.
Hellions I do get why it would be useful.
The thing is, you still need to run away the rest of the scvs...
I like where this thread is going.
The option to fend off mutas sounds pretty good. You can also stim marines in a bunker. I just don´t know if one bunker can cover the whole mineral line.
Yet for flying on the island, I don´t know.
It takes about the same time as building a factory and building a starport. If you also don´t have the ebay already, which takes another 35 seconds, the neosteel upgrade is only slightly faster than getting a medivac.
It also is 200 gas cheaper then getting a dropship(fact+starport+medivac=300).
On the other hand a medivac can transfer more than 5 scvs which is the increment and also many people love building orbitals on island. And the best way to build an orbital usually is by morphing it before flying over.
I think 100/100 with 110 seconds research is a bit much to cheap out on a starport which wou will need on island maps anyway.
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When that retardedly small 2p lava map was still around that had the incredibly small path through the middle I would do a heavy bunker expand and get both bunker ups and tanks and build turrets bunkers and tanks all the way to the place where you could siege their nat. Was fun. I liked that map, as T.
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Another problem of this upgrade is the upgrade is from engbay.
Most of terran builds uses 2 engbay so they can get a fast 3/3. In all those builds there is no point to delay any of those bio upgrades with neosteel. In other builds that use only one engbay, it's even worse to use engbay time for neosteel.
The conclusion is that those upgrades are only viable in late game scenarii (when 3/3 or 2/2 is done), or in theory in very specific builds based on neosteel (I can't think of any right now). So neosteel is useless basicaly, at least vs zerg. Perhaps vs protoss in a mech build neosteel could be useful, you upgrade only bio attack and replace bio armor with neosteel and +2 building armor.
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Well spoken.
I somehow couldn´t put it into words.
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EPT
