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I think the title says it all. Well most of it.
My question here is, I cannot think of any sensible use for the neosteel frame upgrade at all, unlike any other upgrade in SC2(and unit, since Mothership is now used for the harass into recall and the infamous Archon toilet).
The next best thing I am unsure about would be 250mm cannon, but even this was proven to be usable to counter immortals in certain circumstances.
Now back to the neosteel frame upgrade. It increases bunker capacity by 2 and doubles scv capacity in CCs and PFs.
Now it doesn´t actually increase bunker health, it only increases concentration or density of firepower or however you would call that.
So it kind of increases the offensive potential of bunkers...
Plainly said, I cannot think of a scenario in which you couldn´t just built another bunker next to a bunker to increase effectiveness or use turrets/siege tanks/vikings for much greater effect.
In case of defence you would simply build more bunkers. In case of offence, I don´t think it is really viable to build bunkers offensively outside of aggressive openings against early expansions, at which point you will not have an engineering bay and you will not have finished a 110 second research either.
I heard the rumor, that scvs could repair a CC/PF from the inside, but I think thats just a silly rumor. If you bring this up, please prove it.
tl;dr version:
Bunker upgrades will never finish in time for common bunker rushes.
For defence it sounds much more sensible to get turrets, siege tanks or adding more bunkers instead of spending 100/100 and waiting for 110 seconds for the second/third best upgrade for bunkers(first place of course going to building armor).
Can someone else think of a sensible scenario for getting the upgrade, in which it helps in a way nothing else could do for same time/price?
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Warp prism speed upgrade?
zergling adrenal glands?
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I only see their use as storm shelters for super hard contains and ultra slow pushes in TvP. If firebats were in the game still, you could make a legitimate argument for using them against Zerg.
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for bronze level players
bunker capacity increase? wow that really increases my turtling power
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Maybe in late game against toss when you want to protect your bio ball. but I think it's a much better combo if you have the +2 to buildings and this one.
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theyre actually really good against muta harass if you have +3 armor on your turrets they last a whole lot longer and it negates the muta bounce. thats what its in the game for. It reduces muta damage by 33%
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On January 30 2011 12:46 MegaBUD wrote:
Warp prism speed upgrade?
zergling adrenal glands?
I get adrenal glands every game that goes past the 10 min mark and isn't some kind of cheese to deliberately end the game quickly. Sure it's not as good as it was in brood war, but it still makes a 25 mineral unit much more cost effective.
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Because in some maps, you won't be able to fit two bunkers in a spot that actually cover each other. We don't have any of those maps at the moment though.
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On January 30 2011 12:46 MegaBUD wrote:
Warp prism speed upgrade?
zergling adrenal glands?
Both of these are just small increases in a units ability, which when games begin to get much longer, and where the slightest "edge" is needed, these upgrades will help with that.
However, bunker upgrades will not, since bunkers are basically free. If bunkers wern't a 100% salvage return, then there might be a point in improving them.
Also, Perhaps if one got this upgrade, it would make the bunker "massive", and not FF-able (to block scv repairs, one would have to force field not touching the bunker.)
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On January 30 2011 12:46 MegaBUD wrote:
Warp prism speed upgrade?
zergling adrenal glands?
Warp prism speed upgrade can be used to increase effectiveness of warp prism harass. Can´t name who, but I think I saw a professional do it.
Zergling adrenal glands isn´t as good as the equivalent of BW, but I saw quite a number of people going for Ultra/Ling get this upgrade.
The circumstances may be very specific, but I can at least THINK of a reason to get those upgrades.
As for island maps, wouldn´t range upgraded missile turrets or simple vikings not be just as effective(greater range)?
Also even then I would think that two bunkers instead of one would still do the trick without using the ebay for this, which also upgrades infantry weapons, auto tracking and building armor which I personally think are all better.
I could be wrong though, I´m just a lowly platinum random.
edit:
On January 30 2011 12:50 Dubz wrote:
theyre actually really good against muta harass if you have +3 armor on your turrets they last a whole lot longer and it negates the muta bounce. thats what its in the game for. It reduces muta damage by 33%
Wrong upgrade, and building armor is gold against zerg. We´re talking about bunker capacity.
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Its really kind of hard to theroycraft stuff like this. It might turn out years later that neosteel is complete unless; or it could turn out to be a extreamly cost effective upgrade mid to late game.
But were not there yet and it's going to be a while before the pro's have the same grasp of the game that they had with sc1 where they can really look into some of the funky stuff in sc2.
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The upgrade seems to be aimed at lower league players, specifically extreme turtlers. It might be good for island maps, though a medivac will probably be a more economical option. I don't see it ever becoming viable in a high level game, unless one of the players has money to burn just for fun. I could see late-game upgraded offensive bunkers be the new BM fashion.
However, it's a great upgrade in the campaign.
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Its a waste of money. The armour upgrade for buildings is much more worth it as it takes noticeably more muta and voidray hits to kill it.
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Well if you have a larger army but not large enough to outright counter an attack by your opponent on your base, you can get more bang for your bunker buck by falling back into the bunker to extended the life span and damage of a larger portion of your army. Protect 6 Marines instead of 4 for example. Or maybe 3 Marauders?
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i use it in TvZ often. if i find myself on 3/4 bases and the map doesnt allow me to easily defend myself and the zerg is using alot of mutas, neosteel frame is awesome.
it also makes PF untouchable against zerglings.
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I dunno, really... maybe if you plan on taking both islands? It costs the same as a medivac though...
I guess it could be made better if they increased the cost, but it also increased bunker health?
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On January 30 2011 12:55 hellsan631 wrote:
However, bunker upgrades will not, since bunkers are basically free. If bunkers wern't a 100% salvage return, then there might be a point in improving them.
You assume that you will have time to salvage the bunker. It's not free if your opponent blows it up.
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Also, if you have the money, its better to invest it in something like a bunker that you can salvage because have 6 spots in a bunker can't hurt. When going for a mid game contain stuffing more units into fewer bunkers ties up less minerals in bunkers at any given time and increases the output of damage in that effective area. Although, yeah it would really not be a priority upgrade from the get go.
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The only time I find it viable at high level play (you're right it takes to long to upgrade)
Is maybe vs a toss on like LT or XelNaga were I fast expo and really need 3-4 bunkers to hold a 4gate/1robo strong push. Besides that I can't think of ever needing it vs Terran and maybe even vs zerg. Maybe a good bunker tank push vs a Toss mid game it could also be useful but not sure.
Not trying to derail your thread but I also think the Terran armor upgrade should give a slight reduce to splash. E.I. things like banelings/tanks/colossus should do like 30% less damage with that upgrade.
@philibird thats interesting. So do you put a bunker in the mineral line with 6 marines in it? I'm thinking this could be maybe even more effective thana few turrets for the same price or less.
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The upgrade increases the capacity of your bunkers by two slots and this increases the dps of the bunker by 50%. Theoretically this sounds great, but in reality your bunker doesnt move and needs wayyy more space than the units inside need on the battlefield. Thus it seems bad and only marginally useful.
Personally I think it will not have any usefulness until we get to see "bunker containment strategies" in a GSL. Those are pretty useless due to the HUGE advantages of mobility, the not-so-greatness of the siege tanks and the smallness of many maps.
One thing which I came up with is the increased capacity for SCVs inside a Planetary Fortress, which could be used when the PF or the SCVs are under attack to interrupt the targeting on the workers for a short moment, but loading and unloading probably takes too long. So this is another "once in a blue moon" event which makes the upgrade totally useless.
The bottom line is that it needs to be redesigned or taken out of the game ...
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On January 30 2011 13:33 Nizzy wrote:
The only time I find it viable at high level play (you're right it takes to long to upgrade)
Is maybe vs a toss on like LT or XelNaga were I fast expo and really need 3-4 bunkers to hold a 4gate/1robo strong push. Besides that I can't think of ever needing it vs Terran and maybe even vs zerg. Maybe a good bunker tank push vs a Toss mid game it could also be useful but not sure.
Not trying to derail your thread but I also think the Terran armor upgrade should give a slight reduce to splash. E.I. things like banelings/tanks/colossus should do like 30% less damage with that upgrade.
@philibird thats interesting. So do you put a bunker in the mineral line with 6 marines in it? I'm thinking this could be maybe even more effective thana few turrets for the same price or less.
The cost of a bunker + marines on standby to get in seems to be more expensive. Plus you don't get detection and eat up supply. Your going to keep 4-6 marines nearby or in the bunker or maintain a mobile force to fall back into it at times? I don't really play Terran, so this could totally work and I am missing something obvious, but at first glance, I dunno.
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Honestly you can achieve the exact same result just having the money spent on units and putting them behind the bunkers to be able to shoot while the bunker tanks the hit. 2 Extra spaces in a bunker does nothing to improve it's offense(imo) or defense. The bunker is a defensive tool and adding more units inside it doesn't help it defend better.
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Hm yeah the upgrade sounds nice but you bring up a good point; anyways you can just salvage bunkers so the increase in effect may not be as high as one would think
However, just noticed... the thing about getting it for bunker rush? haha sounds impossible but it sounds like there could be at least 1 way to do it in at least 1 situation where you could win the game. But yeah nevermind in that case it would probably be better to rush bunker + armor upgrade. But idk how long that takes, so i'll research. May be I can come up with something? xD altho probably not
Edit: Also, lol at the Archon Toilet! Thanks for telling me, I realized what you must have meant, checked out a video, and LOL'd. I'd like to do that sometime xD
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On January 30 2011 13:39 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 13:33 Nizzy wrote:
The only time I find it viable at high level play (you're right it takes to long to upgrade)
Is maybe vs a toss on like LT or XelNaga were I fast expo and really need 3-4 bunkers to hold a 4gate/1robo strong push. Besides that I can't think of ever needing it vs Terran and maybe even vs zerg. Maybe a good bunker tank push vs a Toss mid game it could also be useful but not sure.
Not trying to derail your thread but I also think the Terran armor upgrade should give a slight reduce to splash. E.I. things like banelings/tanks/colossus should do like 30% less damage with that upgrade.
@philibird thats interesting. So do you put a bunker in the mineral line with 6 marines in it? I'm thinking this could be maybe even more effective thana few turrets for the same price or less. The cost of a bunker + marines on standby to get in seems to be more expensive. Plus you don't get detection and eat up supply. Your going to keep 4-6 marines nearby or in the bunker or maintain a mobile force to fall back into it at times? I don't really play Terran, so this could totally work and I am missing something obvious, but at first glance, I dunno.
@Torpedo.Vegas
No your post raises legit concerns. Philibird is a pretty high level terran, I'm positive he's top 200 on NA so I'm wondering how he uses it. I'm sure its really dependant on maps. Maybe Jungle in the middle it could be useful, but I agree totally it limits your mobility and obviously costs supply.
Maybe they should just reduce the research time. =/
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On January 30 2011 12:43 Mataza wrote:
My question here is, I cannot think of any sensible use for the neosteel frame upgrade at all, unlike any other upgrade in SC2(and unit, since Mothership is now used for the harass into recall and the infamous Archon toilet).
I think the Medivac starting energy is a strong contender for Most Useless Upgrade.  Caduceus Reactor
Maybe the bunker upgrade could be used for the CC/PF space? You could use it to carry more SCVs to an island expo without having to ferry them with medivacs, or shelter workers at a PF from hellions / HTs while the cannon cleans them up. The bunker space itself seems absolutely useless. Single-player upgrade.
Really, I wish they made bunkers 50% salvage at the start, and then Neosteel makes them return 100%. Would help reduce the zero-risk bunker rushing we see in early game TvZ without affecting late game too much.
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On January 30 2011 12:46 MegaBUD wrote:
Warp prism speed upgrade? Use it all the time, it's fairly cheap and great for some late game action. After extendeds and observer speed are done. I sometimes also get observer speed before extended thermal lances because ... ghasp ... I don't use the colossus in every game.
zergling adrenal glands? Now why is this useless? It's almost dps times 1.2, that's a great additive in late game when you're already maxed on upgrades.
And neosteel frame has a very obvious use if you want to fly to an island.
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On January 30 2011 13:50 Talack wrote:
Honestly you can achieve the exact same result just having the money spent on units and putting them behind the bunkers to be able to shoot while the bunker tanks the hit. 2 Extra spaces in a bunker does nothing to improve it's offense(imo) or defense. The bunker is a defensive tool and adding more units inside it doesn't help it defend better.
Well, it increases the survival rate of the units inside the Bunker. 6 marines inside a Bunker=6 marines not taking damage from storm/bannelings.
Personally I've been trying to implement them to my TvZ where I do a slow push with Bunkers and tanks.Bunkers and Marines cost minerals while Bannelings cost Gas.
/my2cents
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Wow, I actually forgot the medivac energy upgrade^^ Hehe
So there are 2 upgrades I can´t make sense of.
Personally I never used the "store scv" on a pfortress. Dunno, if there are mutas, scvs are better repairing turrets. Storms are killing fast, so I think you´d need super reflexes.
Hellions I do get why it would be useful.
The thing is, you still need to run away the rest of the scvs...
I like where this thread is going.
The option to fend off mutas sounds pretty good. You can also stim marines in a bunker. I just don´t know if one bunker can cover the whole mineral line.
Yet for flying on the island, I don´t know.
It takes about the same time as building a factory and building a starport. If you also don´t have the ebay already, which takes another 35 seconds, the neosteel upgrade is only slightly faster than getting a medivac.
It also is 200 gas cheaper then getting a dropship(fact+starport+medivac=300).
On the other hand a medivac can transfer more than 5 scvs which is the increment and also many people love building orbitals on island. And the best way to build an orbital usually is by morphing it before flying over.
I think 100/100 with 110 seconds research is a bit much to cheap out on a starport which wou will need on island maps anyway.
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When that retardedly small 2p lava map was still around that had the incredibly small path through the middle I would do a heavy bunker expand and get both bunker ups and tanks and build turrets bunkers and tanks all the way to the place where you could siege their nat. Was fun. I liked that map, as T.
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Another problem of this upgrade is the upgrade is from engbay.
Most of terran builds uses 2 engbay so they can get a fast 3/3. In all those builds there is no point to delay any of those bio upgrades with neosteel. In other builds that use only one engbay, it's even worse to use engbay time for neosteel.
The conclusion is that those upgrades are only viable in late game scenarii (when 3/3 or 2/2 is done), or in theory in very specific builds based on neosteel (I can't think of any right now). So neosteel is useless basicaly, at least vs zerg. Perhaps vs protoss in a mech build neosteel could be useful, you upgrade only bio attack and replace bio armor with neosteel and +2 building armor.
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Well spoken.
I somehow couldn´t put it into words.
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EPT
