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[Q] PvZ - Punishing Hatch first

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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1 2 Next All
gdalam
Profile Joined December 2010
104 Posts
January 16 2011 09:30 GMT
#1
Hey everyone, 2700 Diamond here (Blizzard hates me and won't promote me :[ ).

I've been having issues with Zerg who go hatch first, and I'm looking for solid ways to punish them.

I don't like cannon rushing, particularly since the ramp change, and I really don't enjoy Forge FE, as it can get stomped by an early Roach push and I find it difficult to get any decent tech or number of units before you have Mutas destroying your mineral lines. 4 Gating really only seems viable on maps with a wide open natural.

I've had the most luck with a one-base Immortal timing push, but I feel like there has to be a better and safer way.

So what's your favorite way to punish greedy Zergs who go hatch first, assuming the worst case scenario with a decent number of Spinecrawlers in a closely choked natural?
Dysk
Profile Joined November 2010
Singapore44 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 09:39:18
January 16 2011 09:38 GMT
#2
Throwing down a forge as soon as you see that expand is the best option. If the zerg went hatch first he can't do anything to stop you placing mass pylons behind the mineral line and cannoning up.

edit: it isn't cannon cheese if you actually do it in reaction to his hatch first
ForTeEscaPe
Profile Joined October 2010
United States38 Posts
January 16 2011 09:39 GMT
#3
I just expand and outmacro him.
If i'm really lazy I'll get about 5 zealots and 3 sentries and foreverblock his ramp while my zealots deny his hatch
Create your beat. Live Loud.
gdalam
Profile Joined December 2010
104 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 09:40:52
January 16 2011 09:40 GMT
#4
On January 16 2011 18:38 Dysk wrote:
Throwing down a forge as soon as you see that expand is the best option. If the zerg went hatch first he can't do anything to stop you placing mass pylons behind the mineral line and cannoning up.

edit: it isn't cannon cheese if you actually do it in reaction to his hatch first


Except all he has to do is cancel his Hatchery and build it at another expansion. It's obviously a pain for the Zerg, but the investment to cannon up a mineral line isn't worth it.
sickoota
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada918 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 09:47:00
January 16 2011 09:43 GMT
#5
Another option is the fast double stalker build
It deviates from the standard at around 16 supply which is plenty of time to react to a hatch first. You cut probes at 16 to throw up a second gateway before the cyber,and everything finishes at roughly the same time, allowing you to chrono out two extremely fast stalkers right as the gateways/cyber finishes. You know speed will be super late and stalkers perform quit well against slow lings in small numbers. . You will most likely be able to go in and pick off some drones and maybe even a queen, and the build transitions quit nicely into whatever else you might want to do as you already have everything you want out, as opposed to a canon rush where the forge really slows down your gameplan. If your opponent pumps out alot of lings you can simply retreat, as stalkers are faster than slow lings, leaving your opponent sorely hurting for drones and you way ahead. TLO has a very nice game showcasing the strengths of this build in this week's replay pack that was a part of the TL weekly.
I could spend a while with that smile
Entropia
Profile Joined April 2010
France103 Posts
January 16 2011 09:44 GMT
#6
Hi yo, 2500 Diamond Protoss here.

When do you scout? I always do a 9 pylon and scout, and on 4 players maps I have 2/3 times to block the hatch with the probe/pylon (of course on 2 players map I can always block).

Timing for hatch first is pretty easy, around 2:00 - 2:15. I scout the first location inside its base, then for the second if I see creep and are at 2:00 I go on the natural and wait some seconds.

To block the hatch I put a pylon, I found it always worth the investment, I always lose to hatch first zergs.
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
January 16 2011 09:46 GMT
#7
On January 16 2011 18:39 ForTeEscaPe wrote:
I just expand and outmacro him.
If i'm really lazy I'll get about 5 zealots and 3 sentries and foreverblock his ramp while my zealots deny his hatch


That's not punishing at all. Trying to outmacro zerg is something that will work better against any pool build than it will against a hatch first.

To punish 14 hatch, 1 gate 1 forge is the standard response. If you're not comfortable with probe/zealot micro, you can also pressure with early stalkers to force a spine, but you can't do much else. Lastly, you can do a korean 4 gate, which will hit before ling speed is done.
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
seenster
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany385 Posts
January 16 2011 09:47 GMT
#8
How about 1 Gate into Stargate? saw lots of good P's doing it. Phoenix buff helped a lot i think. Or something like 3 Colossus timing push. Socke did something like that the last few days... u should get som reps of him.
storm44
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1293 Posts
January 16 2011 09:50 GMT
#9
why not just expand instead of trying to punish him with an all in build
SpoR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1542 Posts
January 16 2011 09:52 GMT
#10
forge, nexus, canon
A man is what he thinks about all day long.
ComTrav
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1093 Posts
January 16 2011 09:52 GMT
#11
2-Gate zealot (13/14 gate) into expand has been nerfed, but still really good, lots of Zerg players don't expect it and don't know how to play against it.

You run the risk of getting ROFLSTOMPED by 1-base roach, though.
gdalam
Profile Joined December 2010
104 Posts
January 16 2011 09:54 GMT
#12
On January 16 2011 18:46 iamke55 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2011 18:39 ForTeEscaPe wrote:
I just expand and outmacro him.
If i'm really lazy I'll get about 5 zealots and 3 sentries and foreverblock his ramp while my zealots deny his hatch


That's not punishing at all. Trying to outmacro zerg is something that will work better against any pool build than it will against a hatch first.

To punish 14 hatch, 1 gate 1 forge is the standard response. If you're not comfortable with probe/zealot micro, you can also pressure with early stalkers to force a spine, but you can't do much else. Lastly, you can do a korean 4 gate, which will hit before ling speed is done.



Hm, I never thought of the K4G as a counter, I've only toyed with it against a Zerg a while back, but I'll have to give it a try when I think of it.


On January 16 2011 18:47 seenster wrote:
How about 1 Gate into Stargate? saw lots of good P's doing it. Phoenix buff helped a lot i think. Or something like 3 Colossus timing push. Socke did something like that the last few days... u should get som reps of him.


Pre-patch I used to go 1 Gate SG and pump Voids, doing a Void Ray timing push which was gg pretty much every time unless I let it get scouted. Since the patch I've found it harder due to Zerg players getting preemptive extra Queens or rushing to Hydras and skipping Roaches due to the Phoenix buff. I actually did have some luck today where I heavily pressured with Phoenixes and Zealots, expanding behind it and outmacroing my opponent, but he didn't play all that well =/
gdalam
Profile Joined December 2010
104 Posts
January 16 2011 09:56 GMT
#13
On January 16 2011 18:52 ComTrav wrote:
2-Gate zealot (13/14 gate) into expand has been nerfed, but still really good, lots of Zerg players don't expect it and don't know how to play against it.

You run the risk of getting ROFLSTOMPED by 1-base roach, though.


Yeah, I've tried going 2-Gate Zealot pressure on smaller maps or close spawns on bigger maps, but I found it to be hit or miss like you said.
Dysk
Profile Joined November 2010
Singapore44 Posts
January 16 2011 09:58 GMT
#14
So force him to expand to somewhere that's not his nat then. You should be way ahead if he actually does. either just take your expo and out macro him or just zealot + cannon rush his vulnerable expo.
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
January 16 2011 10:05 GMT
#15
Well you canon rush him, he expands somewhere else on the map and you just 4 gate him and he dies because his reinforcements cannot reach him in time.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
Maskedsatyr
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore1245 Posts
January 16 2011 10:25 GMT
#16
On January 16 2011 18:50 storm44 wrote:
why not just expand instead of trying to punish him with an all in build


Because any good zerg will just take a 3rd if they see you going for FE with forge and cannons. If the 3rd is a gold good luck catching up. IMO the only time responding with a FE of your own puts you at an advantage is if you are close position LT or meta as he will have a hard time getting up a 3rd.
"Don't believe in you who believes in me, don't believe in me who believes in you, believe in you...who believes in yourself!"
Robellicose
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
England245 Posts
January 16 2011 14:04 GMT
#17
I like going for fast phoenixes. going for hatch first delays his queens, if you boost out a void ray then two phoenix you can pulverise the queens and use the graviton beam to stop them damaging your VR. Just try and ensure you don't get scouted early.
Portentious and Pretentious
mazqo
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland368 Posts
January 16 2011 14:13 GMT
#18
LOL. Its suicide for zerg to go hatch first, you can build forge at 16 food if you see zerg hatching first and just throw down cannons so much that he cant kill them with drones.
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-16 14:32:56
January 16 2011 14:20 GMT
#19
Zealot/Cannon rushes and Cannon rushes can punish Hatchery first builds because they're so darn quick, 2 Gates can also do this on certain positions and maps but it's unlikely that you'd both scout him quick enough to add your second Gate in time but slow enough to not block his expansion.

Korean 4 Gates can punish Hatchery first builds because they strike before he has Zergling Speed ready and he'll have a hard time chasing down your Probe and pylons. His supreme economy and Larva count might still be enough to hold you off anyway though.

2 very quick Stalkers can do some damage on maps where the natural isn't closed since he won't have Zergling speed and the open natural prevents him from easily defending with Spines.

I'd say that a Zealot/Cannon rush is the best response. Here is a nice replay where MC demolishes Ret. If you intended to open with a Forge/Expand you'd have to do this with only Cannons, in which case it can be defended with good Drone micro.

If you do anything else than one of these he'll be better of with his 15 Hatch than he'd been with a normal Pool first build.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Hautamaki
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
Canada1311 Posts
January 16 2011 14:34 GMT
#20
16 nexus is safe on all maps except DQ and owns the hell out of zerg hatch first, 14 pool 14 hatch, and even roach rushes. It only fails horribly against early pool play, which zergs very rarely go for.
True learning is not the memorization of knowledge; it is the internalization of patterns.
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