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Hey everyone, 2700 Diamond here (Blizzard hates me and won't promote me :[ ).
I've been having issues with Zerg who go hatch first, and I'm looking for solid ways to punish them.
I don't like cannon rushing, particularly since the ramp change, and I really don't enjoy Forge FE, as it can get stomped by an early Roach push and I find it difficult to get any decent tech or number of units before you have Mutas destroying your mineral lines. 4 Gating really only seems viable on maps with a wide open natural.
I've had the most luck with a one-base Immortal timing push, but I feel like there has to be a better and safer way.
So what's your favorite way to punish greedy Zergs who go hatch first, assuming the worst case scenario with a decent number of Spinecrawlers in a closely choked natural?
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Throwing down a forge as soon as you see that expand is the best option. If the zerg went hatch first he can't do anything to stop you placing mass pylons behind the mineral line and cannoning up.
edit: it isn't cannon cheese if you actually do it in reaction to his hatch first
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I just expand and outmacro him.
If i'm really lazy I'll get about 5 zealots and 3 sentries and foreverblock his ramp while my zealots deny his hatch
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On January 16 2011 18:38 Dysk wrote:
Throwing down a forge as soon as you see that expand is the best option. If the zerg went hatch first he can't do anything to stop you placing mass pylons behind the mineral line and cannoning up.
edit: it isn't cannon cheese if you actually do it in reaction to his hatch first
Except all he has to do is cancel his Hatchery and build it at another expansion. It's obviously a pain for the Zerg, but the investment to cannon up a mineral line isn't worth it.
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Another option is the fast double stalker build
It deviates from the standard at around 16 supply which is plenty of time to react to a hatch first. You cut probes at 16 to throw up a second gateway before the cyber,and everything finishes at roughly the same time, allowing you to chrono out two extremely fast stalkers right as the gateways/cyber finishes. You know speed will be super late and stalkers perform quit well against slow lings in small numbers. . You will most likely be able to go in and pick off some drones and maybe even a queen, and the build transitions quit nicely into whatever else you might want to do as you already have everything you want out, as opposed to a canon rush where the forge really slows down your gameplan. If your opponent pumps out alot of lings you can simply retreat, as stalkers are faster than slow lings, leaving your opponent sorely hurting for drones and you way ahead. TLO has a very nice game showcasing the strengths of this build in this week's replay pack that was a part of the TL weekly.
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Hi yo, 2500 Diamond Protoss here.
When do you scout? I always do a 9 pylon and scout, and on 4 players maps I have 2/3 times to block the hatch with the probe/pylon (of course on 2 players map I can always block).
Timing for hatch first is pretty easy, around 2:00 - 2:15. I scout the first location inside its base, then for the second if I see creep and are at 2:00 I go on the natural and wait some seconds.
To block the hatch I put a pylon, I found it always worth the investment, I always lose to hatch first zergs.
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On January 16 2011 18:39 ForTeEscaPe wrote:
I just expand and outmacro him.
If i'm really lazy I'll get about 5 zealots and 3 sentries and foreverblock his ramp while my zealots deny his hatch
That's not punishing at all. Trying to outmacro zerg is something that will work better against any pool build than it will against a hatch first.
To punish 14 hatch, 1 gate 1 forge is the standard response. If you're not comfortable with probe/zealot micro, you can also pressure with early stalkers to force a spine, but you can't do much else. Lastly, you can do a korean 4 gate, which will hit before ling speed is done.
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How about 1 Gate into Stargate? saw lots of good P's doing it. Phoenix buff helped a lot i think. Or something like 3 Colossus timing push. Socke did something like that the last few days... u should get som reps of him.
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why not just expand instead of trying to punish him with an all in build
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2-Gate zealot (13/14 gate) into expand has been nerfed, but still really good, lots of Zerg players don't expect it and don't know how to play against it.
You run the risk of getting ROFLSTOMPED by 1-base roach, though.
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On January 16 2011 18:46 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 18:39 ForTeEscaPe wrote:
I just expand and outmacro him.
If i'm really lazy I'll get about 5 zealots and 3 sentries and foreverblock his ramp while my zealots deny his hatch That's not punishing at all. Trying to outmacro zerg is something that will work better against any pool build than it will against a hatch first. To punish 14 hatch, 1 gate 1 forge is the standard response. If you're not comfortable with probe/zealot micro, you can also pressure with early stalkers to force a spine, but you can't do much else. Lastly, you can do a korean 4 gate, which will hit before ling speed is done.
Hm, I never thought of the K4G as a counter, I've only toyed with it against a Zerg a while back, but I'll have to give it a try when I think of it.
On January 16 2011 18:47 seenster wrote:
How about 1 Gate into Stargate? saw lots of good P's doing it. Phoenix buff helped a lot i think. Or something like 3 Colossus timing push. Socke did something like that the last few days... u should get som reps of him.
Pre-patch I used to go 1 Gate SG and pump Voids, doing a Void Ray timing push which was gg pretty much every time unless I let it get scouted. Since the patch I've found it harder due to Zerg players getting preemptive extra Queens or rushing to Hydras and skipping Roaches due to the Phoenix buff. I actually did have some luck today where I heavily pressured with Phoenixes and Zealots, expanding behind it and outmacroing my opponent, but he didn't play all that well =/
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On January 16 2011 18:52 ComTrav wrote:
2-Gate zealot (13/14 gate) into expand has been nerfed, but still really good, lots of Zerg players don't expect it and don't know how to play against it.
You run the risk of getting ROFLSTOMPED by 1-base roach, though.
Yeah, I've tried going 2-Gate Zealot pressure on smaller maps or close spawns on bigger maps, but I found it to be hit or miss like you said.
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So force him to expand to somewhere that's not his nat then. You should be way ahead if he actually does. either just take your expo and out macro him or just zealot + cannon rush his vulnerable expo.
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Well you canon rush him, he expands somewhere else on the map and you just 4 gate him and he dies because his reinforcements cannot reach him in time.
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On January 16 2011 18:50 storm44 wrote:
why not just expand instead of trying to punish him with an all in build
Because any good zerg will just take a 3rd if they see you going for FE with forge and cannons. If the 3rd is a gold good luck catching up. IMO the only time responding with a FE of your own puts you at an advantage is if you are close position LT or meta as he will have a hard time getting up a 3rd.
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I like going for fast phoenixes. going for hatch first delays his queens, if you boost out a void ray then two phoenix you can pulverise the queens and use the graviton beam to stop them damaging your VR. Just try and ensure you don't get scouted early.
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LOL. Its suicide for zerg to go hatch first, you can build forge at 16 food if you see zerg hatching first and just throw down cannons so much that he cant kill them with drones.
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Zealot/Cannon rushes and Cannon rushes can punish Hatchery first builds because they're so darn quick, 2 Gates can also do this on certain positions and maps but it's unlikely that you'd both scout him quick enough to add your second Gate in time but slow enough to not block his expansion.
Korean 4 Gates can punish Hatchery first builds because they strike before he has Zergling Speed ready and he'll have a hard time chasing down your Probe and pylons. His supreme economy and Larva count might still be enough to hold you off anyway though.
2 very quick Stalkers can do some damage on maps where the natural isn't closed since he won't have Zergling speed and the open natural prevents him from easily defending with Spines.
I'd say that a Zealot/Cannon rush is the best response. Here is a nice replay where MC demolishes Ret. If you intended to open with a Forge/Expand you'd have to do this with only Cannons, in which case it can be defended with good Drone micro.
If you do anything else than one of these he'll be better of with his 15 Hatch than he'd been with a normal Pool first build.
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16 nexus is safe on all maps except DQ and owns the hell out of zerg hatch first, 14 pool 14 hatch, and even roach rushes. It only fails horribly against early pool play, which zergs very rarely go for.
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EPT
