• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 20:36
CET 02:36
KST 10:36
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners11Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11
Community News
Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada0SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA2StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7[BSL21] RO32 Group Stage4
StarCraft 2
General
Craziest Micro Moments Of All Time? SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close"
Tourneys
Tenacious Turtle Tussle Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions Where's CardinalAllin/Jukado the mapmaker?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Grand Finals [BSL21] RO32 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Learning my new SC2 hotkey…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1550 users

GSL Season 3 predictions using statistics

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
Mip
Profile Joined June 2010
United States63 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-09 18:17:31
December 08 2010 09:44 GMT
#1
Hey all,

I'm working on my master's degree in statistics. I've wanted to do a project that was Starcraft related. So, for my semester project in my Bayesian Methods class, I thought I'd do a ranking system for the GSL players. I hope to expand on this later, but right now it just takes all the brackets, the win/loss numbers with the player names, processes them using Bayesian magic (I used a Bayesian hierarchical model with binomial prior, p = inverse logit link with 2 player skill parameters, and player skills are distributed Normal(0,sigma^2). I'll post the technical write-up later if anyone is interested), and spits out a skill parameter which can be translated into a probability statement about who will win in a game.

A lot of players didn't play enough games to be able to estimate their skill with very much confidence, Jinro and Choya are examples, but players with high uncertainty are pulled towards the group average.

Forgive the formatting.

Probabilities of each of the top 4 taking the advancing to the next round and also advancing and then winning the whole tournament (Based only on GSL Seasons 1-3 data):
+ Show Spoiler +

Remember these are only based on the data and are based on the chances of each player winning a Bo7 match against each of these other players. You should look at these predictions and say to yourself, "Those are almost all the same, based on just the data, this GSL could realistically go to any one of these 4 players." .

Names ProbWinNext ProbWinFinal
1 Rain - 0.5134 - 0.2443
2 HongUn - 0.4865 - 0.2256
3 MC - 0.4402 - 0.2183
4 Jinro - 0.5597 - 0.3115



Edit : Fixed Coding problem that made people with high variance skill's go incorrectly high.
Top Player Rankings (Final skill chosen to be mean - 2 * std. error)


Rankings on Google Spreadsheet

How to interpret the skill parameters :

The actual number is not important, only the distance between the numbers.

+ Show Spoiler +
To get the probability that one player will beat another, the formula is exp(skill1)/(exp(skill1)+exp(skill2)) where skill1 is the skill of the winner and skill2 is the skill of the loser.

So if you wanted to calculate FruitDealer vs NesTea and their skills were 1.48 and 1.32 respectively, calculate exp(1.48)/(exp(1.48)+exp(1.32)) = .5387. Meaning FruitDealer has a 53.87% chance of beating NesTea in a single game. This is not exactly how I did it, but this is a simple approximation.



If this is interesting to anyone, I'd happily provide more information.

I can generate hypothetical match-ups of anyone I have good data for (Code S players I have pretty good data on as a rule of thumb).

Disclaimer
+ Show Spoiler +
Take the predictions and rankings with a grain of salt, they are only preliminary and will in crease in accuracy over time. They are only based on GSL data and they also treat all seasons equally, assuming no skill change between seasons (not an assumption I wanted to make, there just isn't enough data). This makes the data more useful as a ranking tool than a prediction tool at this point. There also are other tournaments that I could potentially enter in, but gathering the data and getting it properly formatted is proving to be a pain in the butt.



Future Work
+ Show Spoiler +
I have additions I'd like to add to this analysis. If I can get some help with gathering and formatting data, I could adjust for and calculate race advantages or how much of an advantage a certain map gives to a certain race. Also, if I could just get the quantity of the data to increase, I could do a lot more calculation. I'd like to add in more tournaments besides the GSL. Using just the GSL is great to have a fair localized ranking system, but to predict future games, it's best to have as much data about each player as possible.

If I had hundreds of times more data, I could calculate, based on win/loss data, which build orders, strategies, transitions and such are more effective vs which others.

Right now my data looks like this :

NesTea 2
Jys 1

Vines 1
Sen 2

Goma 2
JookToJung 0

Maka 2
Sleep 0

etc.

No race information, no map information, nothing, I just copied it straight from Liquipedia and then organized it for analysis to look like this:

NesTea Jys
NesTea Jys
Jys NesTea
Vines Sen
Sen Vines
Sen Vines
etc.

After that it was just a matter of coding up the model and interpreting the results.


So leave comments if you found this interesting or want to know more or whatever. If you want help implementing something similar, pm me. If you can think of some interesting Starcraft related questions that can be answered through data, post them and I'll see about looking into it. Also, if you are interested in helping me find and/or format data pm me.
Consolidate
Profile Joined February 2010
United States829 Posts
December 08 2010 09:49 GMT
#2
Very cool stuff. I'd be one of those people interested in the technical write-up.
Creature posessed the the spirit of inquiry and bloodlust - Adventure Time
Wargizmo
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia1237 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 09:55:24
December 08 2010 09:53 GMT
#3
Well I'm no stats or math wiz but I think the fact that NEXLiveForever is 3rd on your rankings list means that your system could be improved a lot, clearly some weighting should be given to more recent results, and possibly qualifiers should be taken into account as well, as someone like Rainbow who can qualify for 3 GSLs and make a semi final and a finals appearance is clearly better than someone like NEXLiveForever who was only able to only qualify once and made one semi, or OGSTop who made one Ro16 and was unable to qualify after that.



Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is best. - Frank Zappa
McDonalds
Profile Joined March 2010
Liechtenstein2244 Posts
December 08 2010 10:03 GMT
#4
On December 08 2010 18:53 Wargizmo wrote:
Well I'm no stats or math wiz but I think the fact that NEXLiveForever is 3rd on your rankings list means that your system could be improved a lot, clearly some weighting should be given to more recent results, and possibly qualifiers should be taken into account as well, as someone like Rainbow who can qualify for 3 GSLs and make a semi final and a finals appearance is clearly better than someone like NEXLiveForever who was only able to only qualify once and made one semi, or OGSTop who made one Ro16 and was unable to qualify after that.

Didn't LF skip the second and third season to focus on school?
High five :---)
Mip
Profile Joined June 2010
United States63 Posts
December 08 2010 10:10 GMT
#5
I agree with your concern completely Wargizmo. I saw NEXLiveForever getting very highly ranked, and was like, "wtf". He's boosted, probably unfairly, by having taking out NesTea in his first set. The model, as it is, treats all games equally, regardless of round played in or which season it is in. At this point, however, with only the GSL data, trying to add in a time-effect isn't feasible. There just isn't enough data.

The biggest issue is cross-over, the single elimination bracket format is a statistical nightmare because it doesn't give you a lot of information how players would be doing against other opponents. A round robin into brackets or even double elimination would be so much better for an objective analysis.

Time effects are something I definitely have in mind for future use. I mean, it's pretty clear that a year from now, no one will care what happened in GSL Season 1 as far as predictions are concerned.

As far as fairness, at very worst, my ranking is as bad as the GomTV rankings with their arbitrary point system that doesn't take into account how difficult your bracket is. My ranking system is almost entirely based on the strength of your opponents in how much a win effects your ranking. With more data, this bayesian approach will be infinitely more fair and more reliable than a simple point system.
Mip
Profile Joined June 2010
United States63 Posts
December 08 2010 10:19 GMT
#6
Yeah, I was just looking at the brackets again on LiveForever and Top, they are sandwiched at a high ranking by who they beat and who they lost against.

Top beat Polt, who beat MC, who is getting very highly ranked by the current season, which drags Top up. Then he lost to Fruitdealer, which pushes him back down.

LiveForever knocked out NesTea, and lost to FruitDealer. Ro4 is nothing to scoff at though, he deserves to be fairly high ranked.

I'm sure if I had more data on these guys, they'd get dragged down somewhat. But LF took out bigger names on his way to Ro4 than did Jinro, for example. I think this is a positive thing of the ranking algorithm, and more data will sort out any strange results.
TheFinalWord
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia790 Posts
December 08 2010 10:24 GMT
#7
You should use the stats to vote for your next gsl liquibet and see how it goes. Cool stuff.
nkr
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden5451 Posts
December 08 2010 10:35 GMT
#8
Interesting stuff, keep improving it
ESPORTS ILLUMINATI
namedplayer
Profile Joined June 2010
844 Posts
December 08 2010 10:44 GMT
#9
Liveforever didn't come to GSL2,3.
You know what I'm talking about
greycubed
Profile Joined May 2010
United States615 Posts
December 08 2010 10:47 GMT
#10
On December 08 2010 18:53 Wargizmo wrote:
Well I'm no stats or math wiz but I think the fact that NEXLiveForever is 3rd on your rankings list means that your system could be improved a lot, clearly some weighting should be given to more recent results, and possibly qualifiers should be taken into account as well, as someone like Rainbow who can qualify for 3 GSLs and make a semi final and a finals appearance is clearly better than someone like NEXLiveForever who was only able to only qualify once and made one semi, or OGSTop who made one Ro16 and was unable to qualify after that.
Yeah that's the most glaring flaw so far. I mean Rain as 5th best? - -

Standardizing the scoring for someone who fails to qualify also has big problems (like for Tester who got knocked out in a qualifier by Foxer).

May have to separate it by season until there is more data.
http://i.imgur.com/N3ujB.png
MindTricks
Profile Joined November 2010
16 Posts
December 08 2010 10:53 GMT
#11
u rly got nothing better to do

User was warned for this post
Wargizmo
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia1237 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 11:02:57
December 08 2010 11:00 GMT
#12
On December 08 2010 19:19 Mip wrote:
Yeah, I was just looking at the brackets again on LiveForever and Top, they are sandwiched at a high ranking by who they beat and who they lost against.

Top beat Polt, who beat MC, who is getting very highly ranked by the current season, which drags Top up. Then he lost to Fruitdealer, which pushes him back down.

LiveForever knocked out NesTea, and lost to FruitDealer. Ro4 is nothing to scoff at though, he deserves to be fairly high ranked.

I'm sure if I had more data on these guys, they'd get dragged down somewhat. But LF took out bigger names on his way to Ro4 than did Jinro, for example. I think this is a positive thing of the ranking algorithm, and more data will sort out any strange results.


That makes sense, but having said that, there still needs to be some weighting for recent results, to account for a player improving over time. NesTea for example had only just switched over to Sc2 in GSL1 and if you watched those games against LiveForever you would see that he was an absolute newbie at the game back then.

Also I don't see why a player's performance in in GSL3 would determine his rating for a game that occurred in GSL1 in the first place, that seems kind of silly to me. I mean if someone else LiveForever beat ends up winning a GSL then you could potentially have this guy rising up the rankings even further without even playing a single game.

Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is best. - Frank Zappa
greycubed
Profile Joined May 2010
United States615 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 11:12:56
December 08 2010 11:07 GMT
#13
Using data from other tourneys would help as well.

Good place to start looking- though of course minor tourneys should be given a lot less weight- http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/rankings
http://i.imgur.com/N3ujB.png
Nosferaziel
Profile Joined July 2010
France9 Posts
December 08 2010 11:12 GMT
#14
Could you give us the standard error of your probabilities ?
I'd like to know if they're relevant or not, obviously you don't have a lot of data with just GSL 1-3.

I like the idea though !
jyisvip
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada209 Posts
December 08 2010 11:18 GMT
#15
you have a high chance of winning the LB for gsl4! lol
kazansky
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Germany931 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 11:26:01
December 08 2010 11:22 GMT
#16
My background: I am studying mathematics to diploma for 12 semesters now.
To be honest, I think your model should imply matchup deviation, therefor needs to be at least 3-dimensional. Of course, considering every map would be even better but then the sample pool will by far not return you any valueable information.
But unless you at least concern matchups I fear the model is too theoretical for any substance.
I sorted around the issue aswell when I wanted to do some Starcraft manager toy and wanted to use winning probability to generate match results.

Adressed to the point of your transititive conclusion (A beats B beats C), you can't nevertheless your amount of data, because as you already figured out with your approach, matches can be interpreted as weighed coinflips, but you cannot achieve any kind of transitive ordering in a competition (which is good, because thats the point of competition after alll *g*)

Nice stuff though, I love mathematical approaches to this.

Edit: If you want to generate forecasts, you should consider reading the book from the guy that wrote that baseball statistics book and developed the "on-base-percentage" stat. I can for heavens sake not recall his name, i'll look after it when i'm home, you americans though might know him right away, he was consulted by the Red Sox before winning MLB.
"Mathematicians don't understand mathematics, they get used to it." - Prof. Kredler || "That was more one-sided that a mobius strip." - Tasteless
Raysalis
Profile Joined July 2010
Malaysia1034 Posts
December 08 2010 11:36 GMT
#17
What is the error for the probability that you generated? Its not something ridiculous like +-0.5 right?
:)
MindTrick
Profile Joined December 2010
7 Posts
December 08 2010 12:14 GMT
#18
--- Nuked ---
LawnMower
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden557 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 12:54:53
December 08 2010 12:20 GMT
#19
Look who's talking.
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russel
borny
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
China481 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-08 12:54:58
December 08 2010 12:26 GMT
#20

I know trolls should not be fed but seriously, if someone put work and time into something concerning SC2 he should be credited and not patronized. You are the sad fuck with no life flaming people like him.
Naniwa . July . Morrow . ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Go STARTALE!
1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
23:00
Enki Epic Series #6 | LiuLi Cup #47
CranKy Ducklings129
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 114
Nathanias 69
CosmosSc2 31
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 856
Artosis 761
NaDa 25
Dota 2
monkeys_forever400
Counter-Strike
fl0m1088
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox282
Other Games
summit1g12339
shahzam638
Maynarde146
C9.Mang0118
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick894
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta44
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21761
Other Games
• Scarra1361
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Korean Royale
10h 24m
OSC
15h 24m
Replay Cast
21h 24m
Replay Cast
1d 7h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 10h
Classic vs Solar
herO vs Cure
Reynor vs GuMiho
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
1d 21h
The PondCast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
2 days
[ Show More ]
PiGosaur Monday
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
BSL 21
4 days
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
5 days
BSL 21
5 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
Wardi Open
6 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.