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[G] ZvZ builds and how they work

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-10 23:40:20
October 10 2010 19:11 GMT
#1
Hi!
Introduction:
I decided to write a ZvZ guide, as many people cry about it, how it's not fun, not skill based etc. I will use many spoiler tags to make it easier to read, and allow you to skip things you dont care about.
About me and the topic + Show Spoiler +
I love ZvZ. It is by far my best mathcup. It's fun to play. ZvT is super hard and frustrating as noobs can beat me with diverse allins and timings if i slip a bit, ZvP is annoying as Protoss users are the most uncreative and cheesy players of RTS history, every single game being canon rush/contain, 4/5 gate allins (with +1 attack sometimes) or those few who fast exp do so to screw you over with either blind double robo colossi or 2 stargate phoenix and hope you made hydras if they done the first, and mutas if they done the latter. really really annoying, very few good games. On the other hand ZvZ i dont lose stupidly. Well yeah, sometimes ofc i do, crawler rushes and stuff, making something stupid (or some assholes such as arnoldatgym unpause at 5 minutes into the game saying they dont have time), yeah it happens, but mostly i lose if i'm outplayed, and i can point out what i did wrong, instead of watching my rep and seeing, well yeah i did well, then he pulled all his scvs with his hanful of units and broke me with repair abuse, fun game. Or he canonned me, i couldnt exp, i went fast lair mutas, he went 2 stargate blindly, fun game... I'm not an excelnt player, i had my moments i've been top 50 zerg on EU ladder for a long time, however recntly i struggle a lot and i get angry when i play, so my stats look horrible, and i dont even want to play anymore, so to calm down i've been working on this project for some time now. i will feature a number of builds, some of them well known, some of them really uncommon, and i'll speak a bit about ZvZ in general. I consider in ZvZ pretty much everything is standard and is not allin or cheese, beside < 10pool crawler rushes, as there s not a lot of way to figure out that's coming, and it's a coinflip build order win or lose thing. The rest are mostly scoutable and defendable, and have transitions. None of these are my builds, but some of the builds arent very widely used by most of the zergs. I love zerg, and ZvZ in general as it has so many different dynamcis then the other races. For example below you'll find 2 builds, when you supply block yourself conciosuly for a brief period, and it works out fine, you save the minerals of one overlord. (the fast bane and my bunker variation) BY all means, there are many more builds and approaches for this matchup, such as the increasngly popular roach-queen as well as different fast expand builds.
I werent posting in the Strategy section as the level decreased a lot, and i got myself banned over arguing with people who are... well, let's leave that alone, i think this is a decent comeback, i though about making it my 3500th or 4000th post, but w/e the idea is to contribute whenever you can.

Well known builds
Standard Baneling
+ Show Spoiler +
I wont talk too much about the most well known ZvZ build the standard baneling, we've seen since beta tones of nubs and pros using raughly the same baneling opening, those who were agressive used it because they wanted to win quickly, those who didnt want that used it too, because at least on some maps, there wasnt really any counter to it, so they just opened the same and droned harder then their opponents. Either way the idea is to get banelings into his mineral line, while you prevent him from doing so. Here it is:
+ Show Spoiler +
14 gas
14 pool
15 zergling speed (right about when your pool pops you have 100 gas)
15 Queen
15/16 Baneling's nest (as soon as your 50 gas is pilled up)
16 Overlord
-from here you can pump speedlins and make banelings non stop, micro against your oppoennt's banelings to make him waste them on 1-3 lings each, and keep your blings moving to not lose them (14 drones is actually enough to keep up constand pumping for a very long time). You can also play it defensively, adding more drones, maybe a crawler at the front.

Transitioning to muta-ling or hydra roach are both possible.
Weak against:
-On some maps roach openings totally deny it, and can be stopped by roach openings on most of the maps, if the opponent is good.
-On some maps, it canot crack a fast expention
-6 pool crawler rsuh, so if you are afraid of it go 14 pool or 13 gas 13 pool.
Maps: best on Scrap Station, Metalopolis, Blistering Sands


Crawler rush
+ Show Spoiler +
Let's get this out of the way. Bad, bad build, dont do this folks, you will be called gay and other things, rightfully though i must say. It really doesnt take any skill to do, just go for 6-9 pool, whatever suits you and pull 1-2 drones to build crawlers. If he went for 14 pool or anything safer and he's not stupid, you lost, type out, if he went for 14 gas-14 pool, fast exp, 15/16 pool you have a good chanse/ autowin.



Roach into muta

+ Show Spoiler +
Porbably the second most standard ZvZ build. You have some roaches out real fast, block the ramp, tech to mutas, put pressure, expand. Here's the build
+ Show Spoiler +
14/15 pool
14 gas
15 roach warren
14 queen
16 overlord
-make at least 3 roaches, possibly up to 6-7 based on what you see from your opponent.

Weak against:
-fast expention build can give it real trouble, if the opponent can hold off wiht queens/spores till his Lair tech units pop.
- +1 mass speedling (see below "Super lings")
risky, no roach, no baneling fast double gas into muta. It's not an actual build, as it dies to almost everything, but counteres the roach into muta
Maps: every map with normal ramps: Lost Temple, Metalopolis etc...


Speedling expand
+ Show Spoiler +
The ZvP build featured by Liquipedia can be used in ZvT and in ZvZ too. You have the build herehere. The good thing about it is that you are pretty safe at the start, if he goes baneling you can go baneling, if he goes anything else you get your hatch up and drone hard, or pump speedlings and be agressive. Very useful vs some builds. Transitioning into roach-hydra and muta-ling are both possible.
Weak against:
-most of the very fast expention builds
-struggles vs baneling openers, if you arent careful
Maps: not very map dependant


Baneling into muta/expention/both
+ Show Spoiler +
This is what i call, the "pro zvz build" as it is super hard to do it right, and you will fail more then not if you just do it casually. You open banelings, and whil you make them you add drones too, and an expantion soon enough, while you keep battling his banelings-speedlings, and you will have to add 2nd gas eventually as well as Lair. The difficulty of this build is, you can fail really easily with powering too hard, and not having enough defense, or just overcommiting on defense, spending too much gas. You can start off with hatch first, or pool-gas-hatch or exp only after some intial banelings battles, the idea is the same. Secure 2 base with banelings, dont overcommit on anything, kill him if you can, get mutas asap otherwise. I've seen Kuba and Dimaga do this very well, vs each other too, as well as some other pros. If you are ready to recieve many losses in order to have a super cool build in your arsenal, go ahead. While doing this build, you might end up with having your spire out on 1 base, if the cirucmstances require so, but expanding asap is a must, preferably before mutas get out. The idea behind it remains the same, drone, and donr overspend your gas on blings, while you are still safe. Here's Kuba's version vs Dimaga's hatch first version, replay below.
+ Show Spoiler +
14 pool
15 gas
14 hatch
14 Queen
17 Overlord
17 zergling speed
19 Baneling's nest
24 Overlord
32 pull 1 drone off gas

Weak against:
not sure to be honest. I guess some Fast exp builds beat it, or good roach builds, but unfortuntely i couldn't play around with this too much
Maps: not very map dependant, but maps which are good for the Standard baneling are ofc good for this.

YOU: But Geo, this is basicly standard baneling build!
ME: not quite, but yes, it is similar, but while you do this build, you're the one who's reacting, and having a goal in your mind, which is getting your exp and your spire up with a good economy, while the Standard baneling's goal is to do economical demage and then transition into whatever you want.

I have here the Dimaga vs Kuba as well as i getting raped by Kuba in Zotac and on the ladder. I wish i had better reps for it, as the pro rep doesnt go into the Muta phase, and i cant find any good replays, so you're stuck with those i lost vs Kuba.


Somewhat unorthodox builds
Twin hactheries – double in main hatchery
+ Show Spoiler +
Now here's a build which isnt very popular, but i'm a lot more confortable with it. The idea is to have increased production without having to expouse yourself to multi-front atacks. Of course you MUST know what is he doing, as you want to get a 15 hatch next to your starting hatch. I call this "Twin hatcheries" because you must put them near each other to make your mineral line safer, and easily defendable with minimal ammount of defense. The idea is to have 2 hactheries, easily defendable, with 2 queens. This gives you an insane ammount of possibilities. From here you can do a lot of things. You can go mass speedling and try to overwhelm him, with drones off gas and 2 hacthery pumping lings all day long. You can play it kind of like the "pro zvz build" wit getting banelings, drone whoring and exping-teching to lair. You can also go speedlings but pumping a tones of drones and teching to lair to roach-hydra or to muta-ling. Here's one variation:
+ Show Spoiler +
15 hatch
14 pool
15 gas
16 over
16 queen
17 queen
-from here get speed with your first 100 gas, pull drones off gas add 2-3 more drones and mass speedlings (this, if you want to go the mass speedling version)

Weak against:
-Hatch first at expention. It's almost hopeless to beat it if your opponent is good
-Crawler rushes
-other things, such as a roach bust can give you trouble, but the build's flexibility allows you to deal with anything if you see it coming.
Maps: you need to be sure that your opponent doesnt go for Fast exp or for <10 pool build, this means Scrap Sation and Desert oasis are the best for this build, but you can pull it off on many maps, just be sure that you have space and your opponent doesnt hard counter you.

YOU: But Geo, this is an allin build, what if he goes banelings vs your mass ling or fast muta to punish your greediness, or roach for that matter, roach > lings, rite??
ME: If he goes banelings, you can go for mass ling or can get banes of your own. You have 2 queens and more drones (or at least you can replanish them faster) that means that you add crawlers, and the Queens will be enough to defend with some lings vs banelings, AND you can run with 10-20 lings past his units and go for his main. You are allowed to lose some drones, you can remake them faster. Vs fast muta, you have 2 queens, and 2 hatch you can add 2 more quickly if you need, as well as spread creep towards your exp and expand, also you can afford sporecrawlers, as your economy is a lot stronger if you powered while he teched. Get 2 gas, then 4 and mutas of your own. Also you can counter him with speedlings while he harasses you with mutas. And mass speedlings totally own roaches, unless he gets a tone but you can see it and react in time, as he can only gather a large enough force very slowly.


Bunker – No gas expantion
+ Show Spoiler +
This is a quite well known build, but still many arent familiar with it. It has been around for a long time, many people play it in many ways. I'll give you my approach, after a brief presentaion of the idea behind this. So what you want is to be safe and have a lot of drones. No fast tech, no timing push just defend and drone defend and drone till then go ahead and win. Muta-ling is possible, but i strongly recommend the hydra-roach with this one. You wont take your gas till it's very long, meaning you wont have banelings or roaches, but queens and crawlers, possibly lings. Block the ramp with queens, preferably with your first two queens, with saved up energy, when you're getting confortable with this build you can have 2 queens on the ramp with 50 energy ready to transfuse each other. Sure you miss a couple of larvae inject this way, but it's ok, as you have 2 hatches. Dont be afraid to sac an overlord when you're unsure of what your opponent is doing. You will win many games with your opponent allining you and failing on your bunker, if not, provided you're droining smart you'll enter the midgame with an economical advantage.

Here's a build
+ Show Spoiler +
15 hatch
14 pool
Queen as soon as pool pops
6-8 lings if you see him atacking.
Second queen as soon as you have money
Add 1-2 more queens at least as well as crawlers based on what you see from your opponent.
Suply block yourself at 28 (ok, it sounds horrible i know :D ) then make a gas geyser (or two) and a roach warren.
26 Overlord and keep droning further and add an evo chamber
Get a few roaches and your lair, grab the rest of your gas geysers, transition into hydra-infestor in addition for your roaches.

Weak against:
-crawler rushes, obviously
-Nydus play can be very difficult to deal with on some maps, spread out your ovies, have a ling patroling.
-strong allins can give you trouble if you underestimate them, if you dont, you van hold off anything really.
If he fakes an allin but drones hard instead and exps you might end up in an economic disadvantage if you play too safe, so be aware of what is he doing
Maps: By far the best map for this is Lost Temple, but i like doing it on Metalopolis and Xel Naga's. On maps with backdoor rocks and with too open naturals dont go for this.

YOU: But Geo, no gas?! That is insane! It's allin, you will die to a baneling bust without roaches or to a fast muta build! Whatever he does he'll have it out faster then you!
ME: Wrong, this build can confortably hold off a baneling or any other bust. Against blings spread out your crawlers to make sure you wont lose all your static defence to some blings. Adding an evo chamber on the front is very good for block, and you can get your +1 ranged attack as soon as you have enough gas. Block your ramp with queens, transfuse if he's trying to break trough there, your crawelers will take out them quickly enough, just hold on there. Dont pull a Bisu! (forgetting to press hold position). Doesnt matter if he has units out quicker he cant break you so you will move out when the time is right (preferably after +2 ranged attack is finished) vs mutas, you have 4-5 queens, as well as an evo chamber for spore crawlers. You should be abel to deal with that.


Bane-rush – 10 pool 10 gas baneling rush

+ Show Spoiler +
The idea is pretty simple. I first saw this on Day9's daily (i <3 day[9]) and played around with it a bit. I dont think this is a very good standard BO, but i certainly consider it a viable one, and very useful in a best of X series. The idea is to have super fast banelings to kill a lot of your opponent drones, as well as punishing him for going risky builds. After the early attack you can transition into absoultely everything, hopefully with an eco advantage. The reason i love it most is that it kills the crawler rush and the hatch first builds easily.
+ Show Spoiler +
10 pool
10 gas
10 overlord
3 pair of lings
13 baneling's nest – build it with a gas drone, as you'll need only 2 on gas from now
1 more pair
13 drone
14 drone
15 drone
16 Queen
-at this point you attack with 4 banelings and 4 lings so no need for overlord, as you'll have supply after they die. You can pull off the 2 drones from gas if you feel like, or get the ling speed asap.

Weak against: 11-13 pools do well against this, but it's 50/50 vs pretty much all the normal builds, it comes down to positioning, micro, and how your opponent reacts
Maps: Steppes of War is the best, short distance, increased chance of crawler rushers, but i've seen it done on Metalopolis cross positions.

YOU: But Geo, this is cheesing, you have super low dronecount and dealyed Queen!
ME: yes, it s a bit cheesy, but take a look at it. It's almost 100% you ll do some demage at least, and you drone after your initial lings. It can be viewed as an anti-cheese build, which has its risks too, but looks to transition into safe midgame.


3 crawler muta-1 base muta without wasting gas

+ Show Spoiler +
Basicly it is a 1 base muta build, really not very special, 3 crawlers 1 queen and some lings can hold off pretty much every fast attack, without spending any gas. I like this buid, i dont know if it's an ideal build, but it leads into intresting game, most of the time. One thing which not many people do after 1 base muta is to switch. I do, i feel it's better to make him spend a lot on anti air, meanwhile you start roach production and + range attack while you exp, reaplys will show it.

+ Show Spoiler +
14/15 pool
15 gas
Queen and some lings when pool pops, send 2 lings to scout
get lair after Queen pops, add 2nd gas.
-i cant say when you should add the crawlers, sometimes you need them quickly sometimes you can delay them. It's your call, based on scouting.
-getting second Queen after lair is good option.

Weak against: it comes down to small decisions and micro, it's nota build which counteres other builds hard or is countered hard
Maps: not map dependant as you're hugging your main hatch for most of the early game.


Super-lings – fast +1 speedling expand

+ Show Spoiler +
I said none of these builds are mine, right? Well, this comes really close to it, as i've seen nobody so far doing it since beta and things were different back then. What's the idea? Get speed and +1 meele attack really fast and expand. This build often screws the opponent over really hard. It's a super agressive build, but you get an expention meanwhile, which makes many think that you're actually goign for economy, provided you dont show him every single ling you make. It should beat msot roach openings, kills most of fast muta builds before mutas, some fast exp openings, and can beat baneling builds. It transitions nicely into muta-ling as you can keeo upgrading your lings. BO:
+ Show Spoiler +
14 gas
14 pool
-as the pool pops start queen, ling speed, and an evo chamber asap, add some more drones
16 overlord
-take drones off gas as soon as you have the second 100 gas for +1 meele
- expand and get 2nd queen when hatch done
-make some lings to put a bit of pressure, then drone a bit. You dont need very many at this point 17-20 is enough, pump lings non stop, dont show them if he's turtling. Attack when +1 is finished.

Weak against:
speedling expand, as well as Bunker, on some maps at least
+1 ranged attack roach timing push. If you know that's coming get the +1 crapace instead of meele, else you die
Struggles a bit vs banelings it's super fun to play it nonetheless.
Maps: maps with open spaces are good, and backdoor rocks help you too. What's important is that you have a route to avoid his army if needed, so Steppes for example isnt very good for it.
YOU: But Geo, that's stupid, and allin. You only have lings, banelings > lings, +1 roach > +1 lings, and lings canot shoot air so you die to muta! If your attack fails, you can type out.
ME: Not at all. You have 2 hactheries with 2 queens. This gives you a lot of possibilities if you cant end the game with your timing attack. You can hold off mutas with Queens and spores if you want (remeber? You have the evo chamber and queens in order to have superlings), you can dronewhore if you need and play defensivly while you tech. Against +1 roaches and banelings, you need to be tricky. It's really hard vs +1 roaches, but the idea is the same. Avoid confrontaion when you would lose. Go and kill his base for example. Add crawlers at home if you must, hide freshly hatched lings while your army destroys his base and his yours, then regroup and micro, be creative. It's really really micro and multitask intensive. Remember your lings will always beat his lings and are faster then banelings, so with micro he'll end up without speedlings to support his banes, then you send 1-3 lings on every one of his blings. I'm not saying it counteres baneling builds, but it certainly does well enouh.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/89005-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands#rd:undefined;markup
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/89003-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands#rd:undefined;markup



ZvZ in general, briefly
+ Show Spoiler +
It's really about 2 things, if you get past the early BO phase. When to drone and which unit mix to use. Ling-muta or hydra-roach? I used these terms, i want to clarify i mean speedling-baneling-Muta and hydra-roach-infestor. Hydra roach will lose to muta-ling-bling per cost most of the times, and what's more important, the player going for mutas can have a much better economy, since he has mapcontrol, is killing overlords, drones, lone units, whatnot and expands/drones freely as the ground player has limited possibilities when to move out. So roach-hydra will always die to muta-bling-lin, however infestors turn the table around. If the Muta player doesnt do a tone of demage and gets a really good eco up quickly fungal growth will rape him. Fungal hardcounters all 3 of the ling-bling-muta combo, so your only chance is to outproduce him like crazy and flank from different directions, or try base-racing.
So i think hydra-infestor-roach is the superior combo, but as you saw, i ve been doing fast muta builds fairly often. What i do many times is, transition back to roaches. Not many people do it, but it's amazing how much demage and mapcontrolling can be done with 5-6 mutas and how much the opponent spends on static defence, letting you switch easily and even getting ahead in ground-upgrades. You can drone so much better, knowing what he's doing, and even picking off some of his drones. If he doesnt commit to base defence (queens and spores) you can keep hammering him with mutas, as you can do so much demage, it wont even matter that when he's ready to move out, you have the inferior unit mix, you'll run it over.


I'm really sorry, i fail around with these reps for so long, i cant get them uploaded individually, the replay sites reject some of them for whatever reason, i will leave those two already embedded, the rest, find it here, i renamed them, so probably you can find it. I provided reps mostly for the more unorthodox builds, as the others can be found. If you know better upload sites or means of uploading tell me, sc2replayed and like other 2 sites are failing me. Keep in mind i havent had a lot of time, i only decided to make this a couple of days ago, and i dont want to wait too much, as the game might get patched meanwhile, or i would just quit playing it, as the other 2 matchups annoy the crap out of me.
[url blocked]
http://rapidshare.com/files/424275622/zvz_geo_reppack.zip

p.s: and go easy on me, english isnt my first language, but i put a lot of effort into making this, so i hope it will help some of you at least.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
durielz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States26 Posts
October 10 2010 19:15 GMT
#2
The Infestor is, hands down, the best unit in your arsenal for ZvZ. Writing a ZvZ guide without discussing Infestor use and tech is like writing a PvZ guide and forgetting about zealots.
Tabularasa
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany116 Posts
October 10 2010 19:41 GMT
#3
I havent read everything yet, but I must agree with durielz, infestors are key in zvz. I've been in love with them since beta. Surving the early game with banelings/roaches and teching to Hydra/Infestor has won me countless ZvZs.
Fungal growth kills banelings, lets hydras 1shot zerglings and you outrange roaches and mutas, so you basically can demolish any zerg push without taking much damage and counterattack afterward with your nearly unhurt army. Even in Hydra vs Hydra the 36 damage give you a clear advantage.
If your enemy lacks detection you can easily kill a whole mineral line with 2-3 infestors too (fungal growth doesnt even give a under-attack-alert!).

What I'm also missing is a +1 Roaches Build - since the advantage against Zerglings is just like +1 Zealots (2 instead of 3 hits) it counters even +1 Lings pretty well. I'm still trying to figure out a good build for that.
KeKeKeKeZergru..... forgot my Spawningpool :<
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
October 10 2010 19:46 GMT
#4
i was totally thinking mass roach/infestor/queen strat... i really wanna try it out haahh
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
mathemagician1986
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany549 Posts
October 10 2010 20:40 GMT
#5
this is totally awesome! I've been looking for something like this for ages! I get so bored of the endless normal speedling baneling battles! at least now I can mix things up a little.

thx man!
bananafever
Profile Joined August 2010
Austria348 Posts
October 10 2010 20:43 GMT
#6
upgraded hydras seem to own everything in zvz, considered you get rid of banelings with good fungals..
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
October 10 2010 20:48 GMT
#7
Great post, but a bit confused about one thing. Isn't the roach hydra infestor build most commonly a fast tech to roaches, then tech up and get hydras and eventually infestors? Rather than regular ling-bling into roach hydra. Seems a bit ardous to tech to roaches after doing regular ling-bling.

Could you clarify this for me?
But I really thank you for all the work into this, I feel my other two matchups are decent but I just can't figure out ZvZ
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
October 10 2010 20:49 GMT
#8
I do a variation of the baneling rush build as one of my standards along with my Roach/Queen build (I also stole this from the dailies).

I go for 4 pairs of lings instead of 3 on maps bigger than Steppes. I also don't pull a drone off gas. I split the initial 6 lings into two groups and send them to two different spots in the opponent's main. Afterwards, I run them in and boom. I keep the two other lings at the ramp and morph them in case of a ling counterattack.

10 Pool
10 Gas
10 Overlord
10 3 pairs of lings
13 pair of lings
14 baneling nest
13 drone
14 drone
Morph Banelings
tackklee
Profile Joined September 2010
United States270 Posts
October 10 2010 20:56 GMT
#9
On October 11 2010 05:48 Pandain wrote:
Great post, but a bit confused about one thing. Isn't the roach hydra infestor build most commonly a fast tech to roaches, then tech up and get hydras and eventually infestors? Rather than regular ling-bling into roach hydra. Seems a bit ardous to tech to roaches after doing regular ling-bling.

Could you clarify this for me?
But I really thank you for all the work into this, I feel my other two matchups are decent but I just can't figure out ZvZ


Not necessarily. You can approach the hydra/roach/infestor combo in several ways. I don't think there has been any solid BO's coming out for these units because people transition into them differently. There are people who block their ramp with roaches and tech to infestors. Some may mass roaches and expand, etc. So on and so forth. You can still ling-bling into roaches, depending on how your opponent is playing. If he's turtling with roaches then obviously he's giving up map control with then allows you to be aggressive with lings/blings if needed, while taking an expand and eventually outmacroing him with your own roaches. Personally I always open up with slings because they just give too much map control and pressure over a roach user. But my mid-late game composition will always go towards roach/hydra/infestor.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
October 10 2010 21:02 GMT
#10
On October 11 2010 04:46 evanthebouncy! wrote:
i was totally thinking mass roach/infestor/queen strat... i really wanna try it out haahh


It works but don't go overboard on the queens you need very little once you have infestors to lock down the mutas with fungal.

TheFinalWord
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia790 Posts
October 10 2010 21:07 GMT
#11
This is awesome, I was lost in z v z before reading this, definately has given me some new things to try.
GriNn
Profile Joined September 2010
United States243 Posts
October 10 2010 21:15 GMT
#12
Thanks a ton, been looking for good ZvZ builds hardcore lately and this is pretty much all i could hope for.
Liquid`Tyler: I only needed one probe to take down idra. I had to upgrade to a zealot for strelok.
hadoken5
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada519 Posts
October 10 2010 22:16 GMT
#13
Thank you for posting this!
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
October 10 2010 22:59 GMT
#14
On October 11 2010 04:15 durielz wrote:
The Infestor is, hands down, the best unit in your arsenal for ZvZ. Writing a ZvZ guide without discussing Infestor use and tech is like writing a PvZ guide and forgetting about zealots.

good thing you read my post. Open the last spoiler, the one about ZvZ in general. I find it useless to talk about infestors in the starting builds, as you obviously get roaches and hydras sooner then those. In the last spoiler tab i explain how i feel about the role of the infestor in the dynamics of the matchup
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-10 23:15:44
October 10 2010 23:03 GMT
#15
On October 11 2010 05:48 Pandain wrote:
Great post, but a bit confused about one thing. Isn't the roach hydra infestor build most commonly a fast tech to roaches, then tech up and get hydras and eventually infestors? Rather than regular ling-bling into roach hydra. Seems a bit ardous to tech to roaches after doing regular ling-bling.

Could you clarify this for me?
But I really thank you for all the work into this, I feel my other two matchups are decent but I just can't figure out ZvZ

hmm, well the beauty of the ZvZ is that you can play it in so manny different way. Obviosuly roach into hydra-infestor is a possibility, however it is really unconfrtable to do so for me, it is very passive, as you have almost 0 options to put pressure before your death push comes out. Unless ofc you go with the Bunker build, when you basicly force him to be agressive, so even though you are passive, you're the one dictating the game.

I couldnt figure out good timings for roach openings into expention. I dont have a safe moment when i can say i surely wont get overrun with lings if i exp this soon, or lose it to mutas, or surely wont fall behind economically if i exp safe, but later.

On October 11 2010 05:49 neobowman wrote:
I do a variation of the baneling rush build as one of my standards along with my Roach/Queen build (I also stole this from the dailies).

I go for 4 pairs of lings instead of 3 on maps bigger than Steppes. I also don't pull a drone off gas. I split the initial 6 lings into two groups and send them to two different spots in the opponent's main. Afterwards, I run them in and boom. I keep the two other lings at the ramp and morph them in case of a ling counterattack.

10 Pool
10 Gas
10 Overlord
10 3 pairs of lings
13 pair of lings
14 baneling nest
13 drone
14 drone
Morph Banelings

that's pretty much the fast bane build. i also use 4 pairs of lings, 3 initial and 1 more soon after, i also attack from 2 different direcionts with 2x2 banelings and with 4 lings distracting him, you can check in the replay pack. I like pulling the first drone off gas because if timed well, you'll have 100 gas as soon as your Bling Nest pops, enough for 4 banes, and pulling the last 2 drones off for a bit is good to drone up faster, possibly throw down a spinecrawler if there's an emergency.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
October 10 2010 23:12 GMT
#16
On October 11 2010 08:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2010 05:48 Pandain wrote:
Great post, but a bit confused about one thing. Isn't the roach hydra infestor build most commonly a fast tech to roaches, then tech up and get hydras and eventually infestors? Rather than regular ling-bling into roach hydra. Seems a bit ardous to tech to roaches after doing regular ling-bling.

Could you clarify this for me?
But I really thank you for all the work into this, I feel my other two matchups are decent but I just can't figure out ZvZ

hmm, well the beauty of the ZvZ is that you can play it in so manny different way. Obviosuly roach into hydra-infestor is a possibility, however it is really unconfrtable to do so for me, it is very passive, as you have almost 0 options to put pressure before your death push comes out. Unless ofc you go with the Bunker build, when you basicly force him to be agressive, so even though you are passive, you're the one dictating the game.

I couldnt figure out good timings for roach openings into expention. I dont have a safe moment when i can say i surely wont get overrun with lings if i exp this soon, or lose it to mutas, or surely wont fall behind economically if i exp safe, but later.


Coolest of the beanies. Do you have a fast expand build? after seeing Dimaga vs. Darkforce and having played against it alot I really want to test it out.
Zvendetta
Profile Joined July 2010
United States321 Posts
October 10 2010 23:16 GMT
#17
Could you discuss the importance of 3rd and 4th gas timings?
As of right now, I am one of those players who is getting extremely frustrated with zvz. I like going bling rush, because I can take out 5-6 drones no problem.
The early pressure makes zerg players feel the need to muster up a counter attack. Normally its just mass speedlings, and by then I can have a couple more blings posted up on my ramp.

Also, what unit comps should I be spreading creep with? mutaling? speedlings on creep will do better than roaches advancing on you're creep (early mid game), but its just so weird having both players get bonuses from creep.
"Its as if I can see the gears of the Eternal Alchemy spinning before, and I can almost reach out and turn them with my hands."
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
October 10 2010 23:22 GMT
#18
On October 11 2010 08:12 Pandain wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2010 08:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 11 2010 05:48 Pandain wrote:
Great post, but a bit confused about one thing. Isn't the roach hydra infestor build most commonly a fast tech to roaches, then tech up and get hydras and eventually infestors? Rather than regular ling-bling into roach hydra. Seems a bit ardous to tech to roaches after doing regular ling-bling.

Could you clarify this for me?
But I really thank you for all the work into this, I feel my other two matchups are decent but I just can't figure out ZvZ

hmm, well the beauty of the ZvZ is that you can play it in so manny different way. Obviosuly roach into hydra-infestor is a possibility, however it is really unconfrtable to do so for me, it is very passive, as you have almost 0 options to put pressure before your death push comes out. Unless ofc you go with the Bunker build, when you basicly force him to be agressive, so even though you are passive, you're the one dictating the game.

I couldnt figure out good timings for roach openings into expention. I dont have a safe moment when i can say i surely wont get overrun with lings if i exp this soon, or lose it to mutas, or surely wont fall behind economically if i exp safe, but later.


Coolest of the beanies. Do you have a fast expand build? after seeing Dimaga vs. Darkforce and having played against it alot I really want to test it out.

Aside from the gasless expention, which i call the Bunker, there is the 15 hatch 14 pool 13 gas, ling speed build, i havent optimized it at all though, so i didnt feature it here. the idea behind it is to deny your opponent's later expantion, and force him to 1 base.
Other then that, i too, watch the 3-4 good eu Zergs and i am trying to figure out how they do their builds, but as i stated in the "banelings into exp/muta/both" those builds used by them are the toughest to pull off. You can see in the rep pack Dimaga vs Kuba, Dimaga fast exps -> baenlings there, and i transcripted Kuba's reaction build into the build description mentioned above.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
durielz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States26 Posts
October 10 2010 23:23 GMT
#19
On October 11 2010 07:59 Geo.Rion wrote:
good thing you read my post. Open the last spoiler, the one about ZvZ in general. I find it useless to talk about infestors in the starting builds, as you obviously get roaches and hydras sooner then those. In the last spoiler tab i explain how i feel about the role of the infestor in the dynamics of the matchup


I disagree. Entering Lair tech with a standard Bling/Sling mix without roaches, the infestor is the first unit I spend gas on (energy spawn upgrade). Pick up 2 and add 1 each larvae cycle until you have ~6, and research burrow asap.

It's utterly disgusting how hard Infestors rock Blings and Mutas, you just have to make sure they aren't massing an all-in Roach push. Obviously Sling/Hydra is the best transition upon entering Lair to deal with the incoming Roach mass/Nydus. As ZvZ is currently played on Ladder, since I don't want to discuss anything I'm not experienced with, the Infestor is the single best unit available.
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-10-10 23:42:52
October 10 2010 23:31 GMT
#20
On October 11 2010 08:16 Zvendetta wrote:
Could you discuss the importance of 3rd and 4th gas timings?
As of right now, I am one of those players who is getting extremely frustrated with zvz. I like going bling rush, because I can take out 5-6 drones no problem.
The early pressure makes zerg players feel the need to muster up a counter attack. Normally its just mass speedlings, and by then I can have a couple more blings posted up on my ramp.

Also, what unit comps should I be spreading creep with? mutaling? speedlings on creep will do better than roaches advancing on you're creep (early mid game), but its just so weird having both players get bonuses from creep.

the 3rd and 4th gas are really intresting. Take the Bunker build, with that i have no gas for a long time, and get the 1st and second really around 28-30 food. Then i procced to get lair, and +1 range asap, and i double gas at my exp pretty mcuh when my lair finishes, idially.
With other builds, which start off with 1 base play, such as the 3 crawler->muta when my expention hatchery is half way done i send two drones to start making the geysers as i'm hurting for gas and want them to function as soon as my hatch pops.

The need to counter attack, i like to side-step this issue, by either keep being agressive (such as Twin hatch build or mass +1 ling) or anticipating it with the Bunker or with 3 crawler muta, and not caring about attacking at all.

As for the creep spreading, crazy hard question. With roach-queen you obviously should spread it like crazy. All the other builds though are debatable. If you go mutas you obviously want his hydras to be as slow as possible, but when time comes to engage with baneling-ling muta you want the shortest period of time for your banelings to get to his hydras in order to avoid roach micro or ideal fungals. So i'd say with roach-hydra spread it agressively, and with muta bane spread it later, and defecievly, meaning have an area before your base/expantions where you can engage.

On October 11 2010 08:23 durielz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2010 07:59 Geo.Rion wrote:
good thing you read my post. Open the last spoiler, the one about ZvZ in general. I find it useless to talk about infestors in the starting builds, as you obviously get roaches and hydras sooner then those. In the last spoiler tab i explain how i feel about the role of the infestor in the dynamics of the matchup


I disagree. Entering Lair tech with a standard Bling/Sling mix without roaches, the infestor is the first unit I spend gas on (energy spawn upgrade). Pick up 2 and add 1 each larvae cycle until you have ~6, and research burrow asap.

It's utterly disgusting how hard Infestors rock Blings and Mutas, you just have to make sure they aren't massing an all-in Roach push. Obviously Sling/Hydra is the best transition upon entering Lair to deal with the incoming Roach mass/Nydus. As ZvZ is currently played on Ladder, since I don't want to discuss anything I'm not experienced with, the Infestor is the single best unit available.

you might be right, but in my experience if you dont get a number of hydras or mutas of your own out (or super turtle with queens and spores) against a well timed muta build, you'll lose all your economy. When the infestors pop they cant even cast a single fungal, but can be picked off, avoided by the mutas, also if there are no hydras, no reason to clump them up fungal in its own wont kill them. The infestor might be the best unit, but getting it out smoothly is a really hard task, if you came up with a good way, feel free to write us a guide about it.
If you mean that infestors as a counter to pure baneling-ling, well the problem is with my builds, you dont need to mass those units, you just get enough of them to put pressure and to survive. So yeah sure, infestors will kill those if they commit, but why would they attack you wiht a big baneling ling force when you have the infestors ready to fungal. Then the other Zerg must stay back and abuse the fact you spent a lot on your infestors, and cant be agressive with them till you have an actual army alongside them to attack.

On October 11 2010 04:41 Tabularasa wrote:
What I'm also missing is a +1 Roaches Build - since the advantage against Zerglings is just like +1 Zealots (2 instead of 3 hits) it counters even +1 Lings pretty well. I'm still trying to figure out a good build for that.

Yes, i mentioned the +1 roach build as a counter to the super lings, but i never actually figure out a safe way to play 1 base +1 roach, it feels like a gimmicke build, not a whole lot better then crawler rush. Though i havent experienced with it too much, so i wont write about it in a guide, as it would look stupid to talk about sg i m not even familiar with.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
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