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Hey TL, my first post here. Been following TL for a few years, so I thought that I'd hop into the forums for SC2.
Questions:
Is there an easy way to getting the upper hand in a TvT?
In TvT's, are they won more by outplay or out-harass? (Just seems like things end up with someone microing multiple harasses to a gg)
I'm around rank 20ish placement plat, and I wanted to know if I was doing the right things in the TvT match that I just had. I'm a random player, so I'm not completely strong on all races equally. The match was on Lost Temple and from watching streams of tourneys, TvT is usually long. I started off going late reaper with nitro to see if I could get some harass in while converting into marauder/marine/medi. Got some harass in with wiping some of his scv's, but that's easily canceled out by marauders. Throughout the game, I did things like two thor drops on the higher ground above my enemy's expo, and that worked out somewhat well. Kept rotating between thors and reaper harass, while stacking up my thick M/M/M. He was somewhat trigger happy about attacking, as he wasn't too strong on medivacs. Towards the climax of the game, he had some bc's. I had guessed that he probably would end up going that way, so I went thors with scv's repairing. While this was going on, I had been making some banshee's with cloak for 4 or 5 minutes, so I ended up killing the bc's and then harassing with my banshees which made him leave.
From watching streams, it seems like the only way to win TvT is to either outplay or out-harass. Thoughts?
THANKS TL
eKg 253
Hoping to dive into the TL community, add me if you'd like :D
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you can search up alot of TvT threads on here.
sounds like u have a decent idea what to do. TvT is about beating ur opponent to map control, or harassing him into being behind. its a tough matchup, like all mirrors, if u run into a decent opponent or fail to scout properly.
not sure what exactly ur looken for, but heres some good ways ive found to win TvT around your level (im about ur level):
early rine push - pop his supply wall with moar rines than him off 2 rax b4 he gets tanks up. works poorly when he goes str8 into rauders, or early bunker/repair (never seen it). u gotta sac ur econ a bit to do this. (read alot) -best for 2 player maps with close bases.- does not work @ diamond level.
moar tanks - get moar tanks than him, siege up his choke, get ravens if u scout banshees, switch to vikes for air control, this is ur standard TvT stalemate game. - do not build much bio on this build -
midgame reapers - early midgame scout him, if u can get the reaps in send 4-6 while u have tank line defense @ home. as opposed to defensible and super weak rush reaps allin build. use reap rush builds on maps that are hard to defend, or dont use atall.
drops - tank drop, thor drop, rine/rauder drop, ghost drop, hellion drop (devastating and under-used)
early bioball before tanks - before or on 1-2 tanks u can get him with rauders and rines.
viking mineral harass is pretty clutch since u need vikes anyawys. moar vikes usually = win via map control.
and of course, cloakshees are pretty ruthless if he doesnt scout you before u have 4. u can prob eat his whole line, and his expo line, if hes not that great. 6+ pops turrets no prob with some micro, if u really want to have fun pop out a medi or two after that and drop a repair crew/tanks in his base, try to gtfo if u see him returning with his whole force.
always remember that if u build stuff like banshees, reaps, vikes, and he doesnt, he can frontdoor you bad. get that sht home and in bunkers, landed, cloaked with ur ball, etc. to fend it off. if u did damage on your harass builds all you have to do is keep ur econs ftw.
prob forgot alot of good ideas, gl TvT
edit: dont forget to watch for a mule drop before u head in with cloakshees, that will ruin his day, and of course if he scans u be ready to run away from his bio/vikes fast.
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Get a really good contain early on. Use siege tanks to do so. It'll force him to either get more siege tanks to break out. Or sneak an expansion. Get about 5-6 banshees cloaked and harras and you should be able to force a gg. Also build a decent bio force.
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i don't really see any questions in your post? i think a lot of what you mentioned wouldn't work too well in diamond (late-reaper, thors vs bcs?). Going mass bio is kinda risky if you let him mass up tanks for awhile, you need to really exploit the mobility and mass expand for it to be effective later on
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Mostly I was just wondering how I should go about trying to crack a mirror TvT match. Late reaper was more along the lines of getting 8-10 reapers after I denied his scouting by walling off. Thors, mostly just because I wanted to be able to harass hard with medi-thor drops instead of getting vikings, as he didn't have more than 2-3 bc's with no other air. Seems like too much of a time waste to switch over to vikings since I can keep a thor repaired by some scv's. Either way, I'm just experimenting around with it. Just got back from vacation, played some beta but just started my real account.
Thanks for the insight so far
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I will assume that you have gotten past the openers and the match has degraded into Tank / Viking Wars and that the battle is fairly even. In those cases, its good to gauge his viking count first. When you know have air dominance, throw a few banshees into your air mix and its astounding how much havoc they can wreck with the viking flying cover (you dont have to over do it, 2 or so banshees to pick off tank here or there. etc. Also try to reduce their map control (because you have air dominance however this can be hard to do on some maps, eg cross positions on LT because they can control the watch tower). Basically you have alot of choices in this situation.
If you do not have air dominance, you have a few choices. 1 build more starports with reactors and hope he doesnt build more than you. 2. Build a few ravens, PDD are quite good in viking wars. 3. forget air completely and try to bust them using marauders. The problem with 3 is that if they reach a critical number of tanks then you just cant bust them.
Harass is another option however mid-> late game you should be setting up sensor towers on all possible harass routes you dont have vision of. (drop routes, reaper routes, run bys etc). whilst it may work if they dont have it set up, if they do they will spot it and counter act.
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theres alot of good posts here, i dont think much else can be said about TvT @ plat/low diamond level.
wacked pretty much laid out standard tvt tank viking wars. i really only lose TvT to moar tanks, im considering switching to a moar tanks build myself. im in diamond now though, until top plat u really have options as terran, after that you will lose to better players if you dont do something about their 15 tanks.
air dominance only helps you if you take advantage of it, using cloakshees to pop tanks is great. remember that you can catch tanks running across to his tank line from his base if hes got you sieged in, those free kills are game changers and very frustrating for your opponent.
if they let u get BCs up that can be good, but i doubt ur gona get that much in diamond.
generally i try to ruin them before they get critical mass on tanks, or get enough tanks to stop them ratcheting in on my door/choke while i get banshees or vikes and ruin their econ bigtime. if u fail with this approach, ie they defend well/u suck at killing thier shit, then u lose. any kind of drops fall into this category aswell.
if u just get way more tanks, then siege up for map control outside their base and expand, you will prob win most matches. everything fails vs 15 tanks w/ air vision, thats all you really need to know.
smart players will trade bases with you if they know you dont have enough to defend it, so dont make the move of trying to eat his base @ home if he has tons of tanks, he wont come back to defend hell just kill you first.
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EPT
