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[Q] Hydra or muta for second tier?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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1 2 Next All
rigmar drake
Profile Joined May 2010
United States15 Posts
May 21 2010 22:12 GMT
#1
When im playing ZvP or ZvT, i tend to get hydras as my tier 2 unit. they tend to become my backbone army with their massive DPS and the protection they offer me from air harassment. however, i cant as readily raid or harass with hydras, though i find that between turrets and armies and my less than ideal micro, i tend to take damage on mutas when i DO make them and do very little damage myself, forcing me to eventually throw down a hydra den anyway and overall wasting gas on the mutas and neglecting my macro as i do that.

however, sometimes enemy air raids (particularly against my ovies) can be very deadly and my hydras arent always mobile enough to stop it. ultimately, my question is, should I keep practicing with mutas and work on my micro, is it perfectly acceptable to just ignore them and use hydras? if not, then when should a player choose one or the other?
beakermimi
Profile Joined April 2010
Ireland13 Posts
May 21 2010 22:17 GMT
#2
I've found against zerg mass mutas to be a bit more effective than hydras...
Fast and Free
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 21 2010 22:29 GMT
#3
I can't speak for ZvT, but you can really screw with a protoss player by starting with mutas and transitioning into hydras. I don't know what level you're playing at, but a lot of protoss players will have difficulty adjusting to your tech switch.
Demus
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands305 Posts
May 21 2010 22:36 GMT
#4
in ZvZ, muta's generally work better, because of overlord sniping and the large amount of lings that will be around (a large amount of lings can be pretty devastating for a small group of hydra's). Besides that, i hardly ever grab an early spire these days and prefer to go an early mass hydra (backed up with lings, depending on the amount of gas / minerals i have).
The only units that can really put the hurt on hydra's are tanks, colossi and banelings. Tanks can be a problem, make sure you have map awareness so you can catch them on the move. Colossi generally come later than hydra's, allowing you to mass up enough to snipe them early in a battle. Bring some lings to block of chargelots though. Versus zerg, get some muta's.

Make sure you spread your creep around enough, and your hydra's should have sufficient mobility to catch harassment of ovies near your base. If you get a heavy harass, move your ovies over your hydra's to shut the harassments down. This may deter your scouting, which can be a pain, but remember that a heavy air force will lead to a weaker ground force, so if you've been macroing properly a retalliation is called for.
dudeman001
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2412 Posts
May 21 2010 23:01 GMT
#5
If you're looking to harass early on, by all means make mutas. But understand (atleast in ZvT) Terran WILL make turrets to shut that down and bring in thors if you start to heavily mass them. With the new overseer change, that makes harassing with contaminate and infested terrans that much harder down the line. If you go hydras, you have a solid army to combat the eventual terran push and Terran will still be open to overseer harass, unless you've got an incredibly paranoid enemy. Later on your hydras will be much more valuable in army battles than mutas because, honestly, stimmed marines rip mutalisks to shreds.

I know it seems like I'm just advocating skipping mutas and going hydralisks, but by all means go mutalisks! They're great harassers when turrets aren't operational (hint: hide the spire as best as you can so turrets arent operational in time. Mutas also force ALL of the terran marines/AA to the back of his base, which in some situations can leave his front door very exposed. good luck!
Sup.
rigmar drake
Profile Joined May 2010
United States15 Posts
May 21 2010 23:05 GMT
#6
if theyre turtled in with a wall/high ground or lots of cannons and its not an option to run them over, and mass expanding is stopped by raids or drops because of their air superiority and my limited scouting, how do i handle this? i cant run over their fortified position and im being hacked away one piece at a time
Zintis
Profile Joined May 2010
41 Posts
May 21 2010 23:19 GMT
#7
I tend to favor mutas in tier2 mostly because it's a much more aggressive play than hydras. I think that the mutas even in small numbers force the opponent to react and spend a fair amount of resources reinforcing their bases or else have their APM taxed by running around their anti-air units. Often you can use the cliff between their main and natural to have their units take the long way around while you pick off workers or force them to run their workers away; between lost workers, working time, and placing cannons or turrets, i think the mutas pay for themselves.

It also forces a pretty big army composition reaction since they can't run around with no AA; now you can either do a tech switch and catch them with a weaker composition, OR keep making more mutas, and their army will fall if they didn't create enough AA.

Often in ZvT and ZvZ after muta production i'll mass banelings since they are very strong against marines and hydras; which are the natural reactions to mutas.
Leeoku
Profile Joined May 2010
1617 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-21 23:54:10
May 21 2010 23:28 GMT
#8
spamming hydras are my fav however it depends on the opponents reaction. if the player is smart and doesnt overreact with too many static defense then hydras are the way to go. but muts are great for psychological reasons
TRAP[yoo]
Profile Joined December 2009
Hungary6026 Posts
May 21 2010 23:33 GMT
#9
in zvp im sticking to hydras...just feels better for me.
in zvt mutas are my choice to harass the terran and to force him to make more thors/marines/turrets than he wants to to screw up his unit composition and to weaken his push
FTD
IrT4nkz
Profile Joined May 2010
229 Posts
May 21 2010 23:50 GMT
#10
Depending on the mu, muta's can also snipe expansions if they are unprotected while building, and if they are building expo's without their army to protect them and have no AA in their existing mineral lines, it's pretty much free worker kills.
guitarizt
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1492 Posts
May 22 2010 00:02 GMT
#11
Work on your apm but I would say that you need a higher apm to make mutas work than hydras.
“There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.” - Hemingway
Twe3k
Profile Joined August 2009
89 Posts
May 22 2010 02:01 GMT
#12
On May 22 2010 07:17 beakermimi wrote:
I've found against zerg mass mutas to be a bit more effective than hydras...


I agree, especially Vs Toss. I learned my lesson when I tried to put up Hydras and he walked out with his Colossus and just wrecked my face.

And Vs Terran most people are so afraid of Roach play nowadays that they skip marines and go right to Marauders. when you show up with Mutas they dunno what to do. Also Mutas are just so Mobile. You can harass so much faster and more effectively basically forcing your opponent to stay in his base and allowing you board control.
Lets Burn! <_/_/_D
afirlortwo
Profile Joined April 2010
United States161 Posts
May 22 2010 03:48 GMT
#13
mass mutas are very effective vs toss, as mutas scale very well in large numbers. To counter masses of mutas, splash is ordinarily needed; terran have this in the thor, but toss have nothing. the archon's range is far too short in sc2, storm isnt what it used to be, and sairs are gone. A well balanced group of sentries and stalkers can be effective, but you'll still have the mobility advantage and map control.
Just a momentary diversion on the road to the grave
spiderface
Profile Joined May 2010
United States74 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-23 03:24:14
May 23 2010 03:17 GMT
#14
When you get a group of 5-10 Mutas on an enemy mineral line, you think to yourself, "Why would I play any other way?". When they defend against it, you still have a great flock of harassers, expansion blockers, and some of the best mind game units in all of Starcraft.


You cannot engage enemy ground forces that can attack air with similar numbers of Mutalisks without proper support.

You cannot engage enemy ground forces that can attack air with similar numbers of Mutalisks without proper support.

I lost a game because I was massing up a force of Mutalisks toward the enemy base and caught a glimpse of their army moving out towards my base with one of my Overlords. I made the mistake of pulling my Mutas back to try to defend my expo with Zerglings against an early 2x Thor, Marine and Hellion push and it did not work out (durrr). I would have been much better served being more aggressive and having my Mutas continue towards the enemy base and try to make them pull back in response.

Read them and tech switch appropriately You should have the scouting and map control advantage. Use it to your advantage.

Speedlings are a great compliment unit to mutas. They cost zero gas and you can cover the whole map in a few seconds with all of your units. Mind games and map control
ymirheim
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden300 Posts
May 23 2010 03:28 GMT
#15
I find the most annoying thing as terran when playing against zerg is when the zerg player is using zerglings/banelings and mutalisks and constantly pushing the ratio strongly in favor of either one just to switch in the other direction when I adjust. When I am heavy on marines and thors then I get overwhelmed by an instant switch to all out zergling/baneling production and just as I adjust by going for more hellions, marauders and tanks to not die a full production cycle of mutas from all hatcheries finishes and I get rolled. I find that really tough to deal with once you are at a 3-4 base macro game since there is no way that terran can adjust fast enough to how fast zerg can switch up unit composition.
The only thing you should feel when you shoot someone... is the recoil
EscPlan9
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2777 Posts
May 23 2010 03:35 GMT
#16
Somewhat amusing story... so I was trying out the LaLush build for the first time against a protoss player who went 1gate-core and a quick robo. I expected it to be the immortal timing push of course, so I followed the build and got up some hydras. As he started to walk out, I had a few lings across the map for scouting purposes, I quickly realized he only made Colossi out of the robo - no immortals. My force of hydras and lings melted in seconds as I desperately tried to throw down a spire.

So I'm thinking if I try the LaLush build after scouting the quick robo, I should at least plop down a spire ahead of time incase it ends up being a colossus heavy army, and then I should be able to have mutas in time to hack away at the colossi before they scorch my army.

That or skip hydras almost entirely and just tech to mutas. And if all goes well, expand, tech to Hive, evolve to greater spire (nice having the spire already) and broodlord him to death (with a decent supporting ground army).
Undefeated TL Tecmo Super Bowl League Champion
Alegzandur
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Philippines52 Posts
May 23 2010 06:54 GMT
#17
I'm a top ranked Plat (not diamond) so definitely not the best person to give advice but this is what i've found works well:

ZvT: Always go mutas, if you have speedlings and mutas you'll have so much map control you can easily outmacro your opponent; going hydras is too risky if he's going mech (which you wont know until you get a scout in his base which is about the time you get lair), tanks will melt your hydras

ZvP: If he opened with 2 gates or if the map is particularly large like kulas ravine or desert oasis i like to go mutas because besides the mobility, mutas are effective in mass numbers against most gateway unit compositions (try to get a scout in his base before your lair hatches though, if you see a stargate then hard counter him with hydras). Go hydras against anything else.

ZvZ: If you see a quick expansion on a map with a small choke, tech straight to mutas and block your choke with a few roaches, otherwise go hydras.
Buffy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Sweden665 Posts
May 23 2010 08:04 GMT
#18
Daimond here and this is what I use, may differ from some of yours but this works ok / good for me considering mutas in different matchups

ZvT: Always mutas for harras forcing him to go heavier on the marines mid/early game and own that army with banelings/roaches
ZvP:´Never goes Mutas almost since it's to easy to swap to Phoenix and mutas are not good vs them in small numbers or at least lesser then 15+
ZvZ:always speedlings into baneling harras into mutas, always does the trick

Yes I am
Bosu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3247 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-23 08:23:35
May 23 2010 08:21 GMT
#19
I would say Hydras would be my standard t2 unit. However, based on the flow of the game I go muta some times.

Against 2 gate aggression I often fast tech to muta when toss make lots of zealots. Almost always can pick off quite a few probes against people who make late cybernetics cores.

Against terrans if they get a bit crazy on reapers or make a lot of marauders I sometimes go muta. If I expect banshees I throw down hydra den since mutas take a lot longer to get out. Although I probably would be totally safe just making more queens. Usually I feel like hydras would be just as good or better then mutas, but if I get early spire vs T usually I will try and get broodlords out asap.

I have not made mutas in zvz and am on at least a 20 game win streak in that matchup. My opponents have tried and died to ling/baneling though so I am pretty sure its not good. At least in high diamond. Maybe at the high competitive league level its different. I thought I saw Idra say he goes ling/baneling/muta.
#1 Kwanro Fan
Psykhe
Profile Joined May 2010
39 Posts
May 23 2010 11:59 GMT
#20
It really depends on what the enemy does.

If a terran goes for a hellion rush mutas are the hard counter for that. They are also a good way to punish him if he goes marauder heavy.
Thors do fine to defend his army vs mutas, but are just too slow to defend his base. A single thor at the mineral line dies quickly to 10+ mutas before he can do too much damage, 2+ thors as stationary defence per base are a pretty heavy investment.

Similar with protoss - if he goes heavy on stalker or phoenixes mutas are kinda useless, but if he focuses too much on ground with immortals, zealots and/or colossus they do pretty well. There are IMO also better to deal with void rays than hydras.
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