I'm trying to find more and more information about this way of play, but it is incredibly scarce. I have always been a firm believer that the reason you dont see too much doubleexpanding in proleague is that there is a sort of good counter T can perform, but so far the only real game I have demonstrating this is Flash vs Pure on Destination from GomTV.

So what I would really want to know is:
What is it good against?
When should I do it?
What kind of maps/positions does it work on?
How do I do it? (Obviously I build a factory instead of tech after my CC, but when do I move out etc, and do I build a 3rd factory aswell if it looks like it is working?)

Any input is appreciated.

ZeKk

Sweden320 Posts

February 12 2010 15:09 GMT

I quote from idra"if you see 1 gate exp or 1 gate robo exp go fac cc fac and kill them.". Taken from "tvp moonglaive thread".

sashkata

Bulgaria3241 Posts

February 12 2010 15:17 GMT

First to say I'm a P and haven't played against it that much.

You build the second fact around the time you usually place your e-bay (a bit earlier. e-bay is usually at aroud 5:00). Move out when you have 2 tanks and rally vults. I haven't played against it that much, so I can't say what works and what doesn't. I'm pretty sure it comes before river even if P is going straight for shuttle --> river. P can't get dt's out on time if he went nex --> dt tech. And yeah, it's dificult to hold if you go gate - robo - expo. My knowledge on the subject is lacking, so I would be interested to hear a better player's thought too.

Catch]22

Sweden2683 Posts

February 12 2010 16:45 GMT

Sounds like a less all-in version of a 2fac, but it comes later, and is this thus weaker, however it is not done blindly?

And yeah, I read IdrAs post, however it isn't nessecarily self-explanatory for alot of terrans how to "kill them".

Espers

United Kingdom606 Posts

February 12 2010 17:27 GMT

IdrA used this vs NonY in the TSL Outsider game

MorroW

Sweden3522 Posts

February 12 2010 17:35 GMT

On February 13 2010 00:09 ZeKk wrote:
I quote from idra"if you see 1 gate exp or 1 gate robo exp go fac cc fac and kill them.". Taken from "tvp moonglaive thread".

this is true

also if u manage to scout 3rd nex off of 1 gateway u can also do this

3tank push if u graded siege and 5tank if u skipped siege, very strong bo. many gamers for example gosi terran r doing this bo without even scouting what toss does which is concidered cheesy and allin but so far he has gotten away with it vs estro b team matches and tsl. i think tosses r starting to become too economical so some terrans play abusive which is pretty new :p

Ver

United States2186 Posts

February 12 2010 20:01 GMT

The key is that they get either their tech or 3rd nexus before 2nd gateway. If they 1 gate range nexus then immediately make a 2nd gate while keeping constant goons it's not going to work. It works best on maps that have inverse ramps from the middle (rotk/moon glaive) as the high ground lets you pressure them a bit more or short rush distance like Outsider. The games below give you a good idea of when to move out and composition.

Here are a few other examples.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11923_Anytime_vs_fantasy (doesn't work here)

Catch]22

Sweden2683 Posts

February 14 2010 03:06 GMT

Thanks a bunch for the replies guys. Any advice on how I actually KNOW that they aren't adding a 2nd gate yet? Specific goon number to look out for etc... Scouting is a bit difficult with goons guarding the front.

For example, did IdrA see anything in particular that made him do this build vs NonY on Outsider, or was it because of the short distance of outsider?

Severedevil

United States4839 Posts

February 14 2010 05:02 GMT

It seems to me that delaying ebay for a faster second factory would always be advantageous if you know you don't need turrets to block shuttle/reaver or DT yet. I don't know how the timings work, but I would expect this to be a good choice any time the Protoss builds a nexus before teching DT or shuttle/reaver. Even if Toss goes for lots of gateways --> you can't push, having additional units is unlikely to be a bad thing.

nozaro33

Taiwan1819 Posts

February 14 2010 05:08 GMT

#10

Well the purpose of this build is to pressure/punish the toss for fast expanding, so my guess (I didn't see the Idra vs Nony outsider game) is that as Terrran you push out regardless of your info and based on his goon count you'll know whether he went for fast 3rd/tech or 2nd gateway. In my experience I often do this build when I scout 1 gate expo/robo expo (send a early 2nd scv to scout his nat)

ajmbek

Italy460 Posts

February 14 2010 09:21 GMT

#11

Look razer tsl nony vs brat_ok game 2 on blue storm

StylishVODs

Sweden5331 Posts

February 23 2010 11:49 GMT

#12

the thing i noticed is how flash lifts his rax after the initial marines, floats it to the expansion and keep making them to have about 10 marines when he moves out. I haven't seen it so much before and its really good for keeping the first tanks alive.

shinjin

United States398 Posts

February 24 2010 07:39 GMT

#13

yeah id definitely like more details on this build?

Im more of a novice, so i can't really tell 1-2 gates by early goon count...and say he leaves half his goons at his natural and half in front of your nat to stop any scouting..how would you know if he added on a quick gateway right after his expansion, or does this build still counter that, does its timing come before reavers? DTs?

Also another question, when do you usually send your 2nd scv scout?

thunk

United States6233 Posts

February 24 2010 09:46 GMT

#14

I'm just going to write in this thread, although both threads are valid places to write this. The other thread is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113456

Light also tried a version versus Snow:

He got destroyed.

thunk

United States6233 Posts

February 24 2010 09:53 GMT

#15

Basically, this build is contingent on two things: a) a low gate/goon count and b) no reavers. Flash has super game sense and can basically guarantee that both things can happen. As Ver said, if they cheat units, this is a rush that basically catches them before they have anything. Because both SCVs and Vultures soak a ton from dragoons, it can be an effective rush if you have a few tanks backing it up. Flash further strengthens it by cheating turrets (because the opponent didn't go reavers or Dts). Meta game shift? Probably not. Another tool in your TvP arsenal? Definitely.

In Flash versus Stork, Stork trades all of his dragoons for 2 of Flash's tanks. Stork, knowing that he has to cheat something to catch up, only has 2 dragoons when Flash attacks with the remainder of his units.

In Light versus Snow, Light did not check to make sure Snow was on 2 gateways. He saw Snow making a move to expand, but Snow saw Light's forces, and added more gateways and units. Light also did not cut turrets, and got destroyed in the middle.

Flash did it against Jangbi; I watched the game but I can't remember what happened, and no VOD is up. I do remember Jangbi losing to a timing push and thinking that Jangbi was somewhat close to breaking out.

thunk

United States6233 Posts

February 24 2010 10:14 GMT

#16

Probably the "fullest" example is Bisu versus Flash:

Things to note:
1) As Ver said, Barracks from high ground to low group. Helps against losing tanks I guess, which are very important damage dealers later on
2) Unit combos. Vults/Marines/SCVs soak dragoon fire. Tanks/Marines deal damage to dragoons. It makes microing against this combo really hard.
3) Bisu even scouted it and everything. He tried to go DTs, which are probably a counter because you have dragoons/obs to mindsweep and DTs can hold back the push. They're probably about even had Bisu held off the push. The fact that the DTs came so late probably means Bisu misjudged and was caught off guard.
4) SCVs were cut in this build. Less turrets were built too. Flash always mined around his min lines to make DT and Reaver counters harder.
5) [Non-VOD specific] Most (if not all) Protoss players went Zeal first. I have no idea whether it makes it a higher percentage build or what. I don't play very much Zeal first so I have no idea what it means.

Sorry for breaking this into 3 posts I feel it makes it much clearer and more organized this way.

sashkata

Bulgaria3241 Posts

February 24 2010 12:52 GMT

#17

On February 24 2010 18:46 thunk wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

The topic is about Fact CC Fact. Light did something diffrent. Fact CC E-bay Fact. It was still a push of 2 factories, but it was diffrent. + Snow grabed his 3rd of 4 gates. That's very safe. It was only natural that he would crush Light's push.
And No, I have no idea what Light was doing. This kind of push cross positions on FS? idk

Reason

United Kingdom2770 Posts

February 24 2010 15:38 GMT

#18

Elusive fact cc fact lol?

Sorry but that is the build every terran goes -_-

Yes I know there are variations and people are always building armories and starports and academies and ebays but come on.... Elusive fact cc fact

wut_wut3

United States221 Posts

February 24 2010 15:58 GMT

#19

On February 24 2010 19:14 thunk wrote:

5) [Non-VOD specific] Most (if not all) Protoss players went Zeal first. I have no idea whether it makes it a higher percentage build or what. I don't play very much Zeal first so I have no idea what it means.

i always thought they made the zealot if the protoss had not scouted the terran yet, or if they scouted that the terran had no walled in.

Holgerius

Sweden16951 Posts

February 24 2010 16:25 GMT

#20

On February 25 2010 00:38 Reason wrote:
Elusive fact cc fact lol?

Sorry but that is the build every terran goes -_-

Yes I know there are variations and people are always building armories and starports and academies and ebays but come on.... Elusive fact cc fact

This is about a specific timing push that Flash has been using to kill off top PvT'ers within 10 minutes.