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I'm by no means a decent player, but one thing that has been bugging me for some time is that Zerg units are generally slower than they feel they ought to be. Without creep, a resource you won't have early game, Roaches don't swarm, they lumber. They can be kited by nearly any unit out there. Of the Tier One units, only Zerglings can get a speed boost before Lair tech; the rest are constrained to safely-kiteable speeds. And by the time you're able to get the speed upgrades for Banelings and Roaches you're not far from facing the first 1 base push from Terran or Protoss, a time at which several hundred gas hurts. If you get the upgrades safely then you're fine on creep, you can out maneuver the enemy just fine.
On creep. That's the part that's been bugging me. The speed of Zerg units off creep, particularly Hydralisks, means that if you're going to flank an enemy, it's either going to be on creep or with speedlings, which are rather poor at holding a line long enough to do significant damage. The creep is a dead giveaway as to where most of the Zerg army is. Zerg should, and in BW was, an ambush race. There was no need for gimmicky burrow attempts, the Zerg army could enter and leave battle more quickly than their opponents. It could split, hit several locations, and then pull back to defend a push or dodge an incoming army. The edge of the creep now is a line in the sand; it tells you that once you cross it, you are in enemy territory. You'll get out-maneuvered by the enemy, not the other way around.
I can't pretend that this would be balanced, but I'd rather see the Zerg benefit from creep in a way other than speed. Perhaps double regeneration rates on creep, or improve burrow in it. Make creep a haven for Zerg, a place to retreat to gather the swarm, but without cutting the Zerg's mobility in such a devastating fashion. Of course, it won't change. Creep will always remain a speed-boost, and nothing else. But I can at least dream, can't I?
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Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2.
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I like everything you said there, Melancholia, but sadly I don't think we'll ever see such a change implemented, since it would require a massive overhaul of the existing zerg mechanic.
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I think a good solution would be to reverse creep. Instead of having Zerg move faster on creep, make enemies move slower. That way the advantage to spreading it is still great, but there isn't really a punishment if you don't.
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Personally, its like saying "protoss dont have warpgates early on".
Solution produce an extra queen and spread creep earlier. 150 minerals and start spreading the tumors if the off creep speed is bugging you that much.
I see where you are coming from, the mobility of the units are quite slow off creep. But the fact of the matter is that most early units (Roach/zergling) have upgrades to increase their speed.
By the time your bringing out hydra's i would have to believe (from watching tournaments, opponents against me) they have the creep already spreading across the paths they need.
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You first 2 paragraphs told us nothing that isn't obvious to even the newest of players.
You are basically complaining that you don't have the skill/apm/mechanics to use creep tumors/Oviepoop.
Having creep also gives a nice scouting advantage. It can force a waste of a scan, or leave ravens/obs out for sniping.
Let me translate your mindset to another situation:
Stalkers are terrible. They don't shoot fast enough and cant shoot while moving. They also don't have enough hp for me. They also are too high on the tech ladder and take WAY too long to make. They dont regenerate sheilds fast enough and lings counter them. They should also come with detection because zerg can burrow units. i can't pretend that this would be blanced, but i'd rather see the protoss benefit from making stalkers, other than just being able to kill shit.
How about you focus more on finding advantages with aspects of the game instead of dreaming about how to make things easier.
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managing your creep is just something you need to learn to work with in SC2, off creep most of your units are still decently fast
you just have a big home advantage
but pondering about it, how would letting the hatchery act as a creep tumor affect the early game?
your spawn, hatchery starts expanding creep and after 15 seconds (as if it really were a tumor) you can place your first creep tumor
queens keep the ability
i think it'l make warding off early harrass a bit less troublesome by having a free-ish creep tumor to expand within your base
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It would require a hard-code patch, but it's possible to fix this mechanic.
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Make a game against a very easy computer.
Forget macro, get lair tech with overlord speed, and get two queens.
Focus 100% on spreading creep
Notice how fast it is.
The only issue with spreading creep is how much attention it requires. If you can have great focus and very high APM, creep should not be much of an issue.
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Hydras' speed is really sad, but other than that I really like the new creep mechanic. It feels very Zerg; you're infesting the map itself.
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I agree. It's been bugging me ever since I started playing Zerg in the beta. To get to a point where you have a lot of the map covered in creep takes a little bit, requires more APM/attention devoted away from other stuff and both T and P can easily limit how fast you spread it even if you have a queen solely devoted to spreading tumors. I personally feel like it's one of the big reasons Zerg has to play so defensively early and mid game.
Zerglings are the only really mobile unit off of creep and they are easily negated by walled of chokes early game which require a mistake on the opponents end in order to take advantage. Against T mid-late game, PF's make it somewhat hard to do hit and run's on expansions without taking quite a few losses. Mutalisk harass can work well if your opponent is unprepared but I've found it increasingly difficult to use against Terran who just mass turrets/get a sensor tower and Protoss who open with Stargate/Phoenix.
Aside from those 2, there aren't really any mobile zerg units. Roaches are decently fast but they need to upgraded and hydras off of creep are just way too slow. The only real solution is just to make sure you spread that creep!
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The creep mechanic makes me feel like I'm being punished whenever I dare to move out of the territory I already control.
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I focused a lot on spreading creep because I've seen it turn tides. And I do a decent job of it. But every time it turns out like this.
Pop out your queen, start spreading creep. You're proactively placing new tumors and going in 3 different directions to provide vision and flanks and increase wrap arounds, so on.
So you hit T2, you might have a few skirmishes here and there, a few scuffles. And the creep maintains.
And then mid-mid/end-mid game hits and the observer is out. Or he got his second Orbital up. 1 scan can kill 3 full jumps of tumors if it lands right. If they kill off your spawning tumor, well chances are you aren't gonna be able to get your Queen 3/4 across the map to make a new one.
And all of a sudden this creep highway you've been working on for 15-18 minutes is dwindling. And its doing it, right before the BIG BATTLE, when you need it the most. And before you know it, its mostly gone.
That is what I think its the real problem of creep. It requires a ton of focus and apm you could be putting into other things. And then its just so easy to get rid of later on. Yeah early creep tumors costing a scan is not a bad trade. But most Protoss pop an observer pretty early, then an obs + a zealot will wipe out 15 minutes of tumor hopping. And if you're mech and your push is like a snail a scan for 3 tumors is a bargain if it wins you the final battle.
I like the reverse creep idea a lot actually. You wouldn't feel so devastated when all that work is killed off.
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I actually agree. Zerg doesn't have that "ninja" effect anymore. At least it's feel like that, but maybe with time nydus and drop plays are going to get better.
We can only hope
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i think every zerg agrees on disliking the creep mechanic. i hate giving up map control for the first 10 minutes of the game just because of the lack of creep and all zerg units move like reavers off creep. that being said it looks cool when it spreads. and also did you notice on maps like steppes of war the creep climps a bit on the edges? pretty sweet.
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Terran / Protoss units being little slower on creep would be very nice and interesting idea.
Imagine poping creep with overlords on enemy mineral line to decrease probe/scv speed 
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Zerg doesn't feel like zerg but I think it's more the 2 supply roach hydra and paper lings that are the problem. I like the way creep works.
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creep spreading is one of the coolest parts of SC2. Don't blame the mechanic, blame the early game unit design.
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love spreading creep, but hate that its a speed boost. It really should be faster regen or speed nerf for enemy.
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On August 17 2010 15:59 ahwala wrote:
Yes. Zerg is broken in so many ways that it's impossible to fix, well at least until HotS, which is my last hope for SC2.
isn't that like... 2+ years away, and in blizzard time, around 8-10?
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EPT
