On October 10 2011 11:27 keyStorm wrote:
15.Rf1
15.Rf1
invalid move.
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On October 10 2011 11:27 keyStorm wrote: 15.Rf1 invalid move. | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Every other move looks too passive, and I can't find one that is worthwhile. Playing b4 immediately can still be met with a5. Also, if we don't take the pawn immediately, we resign the possibility of forcing the dxe4 capture, removing the black pawn from the c4 square which will be very useful for our knight. We should also be willing to open up the position a little more. Although black has the two bishops, his king is slightly vulnerable in the center while ours is protected. After playing en passant, it would certainly be a mistake to recapture with the knight. That would reduce the cramp on our position, diminish the strength of the knight, and allow us to grab the beautiful knight outpost on e5. It is certainly possible for him to recapture with the bishop, but it would probably be better to retake with the g-pawn, because this would both prevent the move Ne5 completely, and allow the move f5 in the future, to defend the e4 square. Otherwise, we can trade knights and perhaps win the isolated pawn down the line. I would say we should certainly capture the knight on e4 after this pawn trade. That will reduce the cramp on our position and offer up the square c4 for our knight, allowing moves such as Ne5. If black plays Ba6 to prevent such a move, it helps us again because we can then play b4 safely and have a winning position. So here is what I am advocating/predicting here: 15. exf6ep gxf6 16. Nxe4 dxe4 17. Nd2 f5 with perhaps Re1 or Nc4 to follow. If black plays 17. ... Ba6 first, we simply play 18. Re1. After black defends the pawn with 18. ... f5, we have the powerful move 19. b4. | ||
SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On October 10 2011 11:29 jdseemoreglass wrote: I'm gonna vote for 15. exf6ep. + Show Spoiler + Every other move looks too passive, and I can't find one that is worthwhile. Playing b4 immediately can still be met with a5. Also, if we don't take the pawn immediately, we resign the possibility of forcing the dxe4 capture, removing the black pawn from the c4 square which will be very useful for our knight. We should also be willing to open up the position a little more. Although black has the two bishops, his king is slightly vulnerable in the center while ours is protected. After playing en passant, it would certainly be a mistake to recapture with the knight. That would reduce the cramp on our position, diminish the strength of the knight, and allow us to grab the beautiful knight outpost on e5. It is certainly possible for him to recapture with the bishop, but it would probably be better to retake with the g-pawn, because this would both prevent the move Ne5 completely, and allow the move f5 in the future, to defend the e4 square. Otherwise, we can trade knights and perhaps win the isolated pawn down the line. I would say we should certainly capture the knight on e4 after this pawn trade. That will reduce the cramp on our position and offer up the square c4 for our knight, allowing moves such as Ne5. If black plays Ba6 to prevent such a move, it helps us again because we can then play b4 safely and have a winning position. So here is what I am advocating/predicting here: 15. exf6ep gxf6 16. Nxe4 dxe4 17. Nd2 f5 with perhaps Re1 or Nc4 to follow. If black plays 17. ... Ba6 first, we simply play 18. Re1. After black defends the pawn with 18. ... f5, we have the powerful move 19. b4. Ah good point + Show Spoiler + I forgot to take into the possibility of a6 but I still vote the same as you simply because everything is too passive. | ||
Ikari
United States176 Posts
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dtvu
Australia687 Posts
On October 10 2011 11:29 jdseemoreglass wrote: I'm gonna vote for 15. exf6ep. + Show Spoiler + Every other move looks too passive, and I can't find one that is worthwhile. Playing b4 immediately can still be met with a5. Also, if we don't take the pawn immediately, we resign the possibility of forcing the dxe4 capture, removing the black pawn from the c4 square which will be very useful for our knight. We should also be willing to open up the position a little more. Although black has the two bishops, his king is slightly vulnerable in the center while ours is protected. After playing en passant, it would certainly be a mistake to recapture with the knight. That would reduce the cramp on our position, diminish the strength of the knight, and allow us to grab the beautiful knight outpost on e5. It is certainly possible for him to recapture with the bishop, but it would probably be better to retake with the g-pawn, because this would both prevent the move Ne5 completely, and allow the move f5 in the future, to defend the e4 square. Otherwise, we can trade knights and perhaps win the isolated pawn down the line. I would say we should certainly capture the knight on e4 after this pawn trade. That will reduce the cramp on our position and offer up the square c4 for our knight, allowing moves such as Ne5. If black plays Ba6 to prevent such a move, it helps us again because we can then play b4 safely and have a winning position. So here is what I am advocating/predicting here: 15. exf6ep gxf6 16. Nxe4 dxe4 17. Nd2 f5 with perhaps Re1 or Nc4 to follow. If black plays 17. ... Ba6 first, we simply play 18. Re1. After black defends the pawn with 18. ... f5, we have the powerful move 19. b4. That looks promising, I'll change my vote to 15. exf6ep too | ||
keyStorm
Canada316 Posts
On October 10 2011 11:29 SheaR619 wrote: invalid move. fixed to 15.Re1 | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
Edit: Also Ng5, is it appropriate to ask if you liked Nxe4 or 0-0 more for white's last move? | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
If black played Nxd2 and then just pushed down to a4 he could have held a draw with sometimes an unlikely surprise. I liked O-O without a3. | ||
Psilver
Canada82 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 15.exf6 Bf6 16.Nxe4 dxe4 17.Nxe5+ Now there are 2 possibilities(all the other moves for the black king let us fork him and get a rook) A : 17.Nxe5+ Ke8 18.Re1 Bf5 19.b4 We have our 1 pawn advantage and the position is open. I'm not confident enough to claim this is a good position for us, but it looks reasonable to me. B : 17.Nxe5+ Ke6 18.f4 exf3ep 19.Nf3 Rd8 20.Rd1 Rb3 and it looks tense but we still have our +1 pawn. I'm not sure if this one is good for us! He could also go for 20.Rd1 c5 ... and we are screwed I think. To improve this for white, there is maybe 19.Rf3 Bxe5 20.dxe5 Ke5 then the black King is extremely exposed and we could do things like 21.Bf4+ Kd5 22.Rd1+ This variation is looking good for white. If he doesn't take the pawn at move 18. or the knight at move 19. then we have a good position and we conserve our pawn advantage. I don't know how useful this is, but it was fun to do anyway. First time I do this sort of thing. Conclusion : The best variations in the 15.exf6 Bf6 16.Nxe4 dxe4 17.Nxe5+ line are A : 17. ... Ke8 18.Re1 Bf5 19.b4 B : 17. ... Ke6 18.f4 exf3ep 19.Rf3 | ||
GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On October 10 2011 11:16 SheaR619 wrote: Show nested quote + On October 10 2011 11:04 dtvu wrote: I vote b4 as our next move. + Show Spoiler + we haven't got much space to move and Nxe4 is a bad move at this point as it will open up the f file for black. Why not just....+ Show Spoiler + En passant? It our only chance to do it. No need to rush for the b4 yet imo. I dont see a reason too. We can do b4 right after. If we en passant... 15. e5xf5, Bxf6 16. b4, Nxd2 17. Bxd2, ?? From here it depend on what he want to do and we have secured the b4 pawn as well. We also got rid of the knight. Of course our pawn in the center kinda weak but I dont really see any way for him to get rid of it. Also our bishop is finally out because we have stopped the pinned and is in good shape and the knight is gone! If he doesnt take with bishop.... 15. e5xf5, g7xf6 16. b4, Nxd2 17. Bxd2, f5 18. Ne5+, ??? From here we are still in good position as well and because he took with the pawn, he has no more connection pawn. His pawn formation is very weakly spaced out. I doubt he will do this move know that other wise he wants to go for a kill and end it right away. Since this does open up the rook to attack the g pawn on our castle. But I think we can defend it easily if we played it correctly. Your worried about space to move but I dont think we need to worry about it because we are going to move our rook into the center and force a trade anyways. This will open up the game more once we get the tempo to do so. Show nested quote + On October 10 2011 11:10 GenesisX wrote: + Show Spoiler + Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't we invoke en passe with our pawn on e5? This would force ...Bd8, ...Bf8. + Show Spoiler + We can, which is what i suggested but I dont think he would do Bd8 or Bf8 because he could just take the f6 pawn with the bishop and pressure the d4 pawn. Wow I am stupid, didn't even see that lmfao. | ||
Malli
Germany138 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
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Mash2
United States132 Posts
I'm not so sure that en passant is our best move. As others have pointed out, if we do this, I think it is likely that he moves ... bxf6. Taking with the g pawn would give him 2 isolated pawns, I don't see Ng5 liking the prospect of that. I also don't see him taking back with the Knight, as that would open up a world of pain for him with us moving our knight to e5. Him moving ... bxf6 puts pressure on our d4 pawn. I think it is likely he would try to follow that up with ... c5, which will allow him to either take our d4 pawn, or if we take dxc5, he will be able to take our b2 pawn with his bishop and rook protecting - while putting pressure on our rook. I think that b4 is a stronger move for us at this point. One, it will open up the left side of the board for us which I feel is crucial because it allows us to develop our minor pieces and rook on that side of the board. Two, it doesn't allow him to put his dark squared bishop on f3 which would make it much more powerful in my opinion. I think we could follow this up by moving our d2 knight to b3 both developing it as well as freeing up our bishop to come out and play. The only negative I see to doing this is we allow him to solidify his knight where it currently stands. While this is a problem, I really like our e5 pawn - especially with him not having any pawns left to take it with. So I'm leaning b4, but am not going to vote yet because I want to see what more people have to say about this. | ||
Mash2
United States132 Posts
Looking more into the b4 line... if we play 15. b4 he could respond with ba6. I think we would have to respond 16. Re1. He could play Kc3 and this position doesn't look none too good for us as there is really nothing to stop him from putting his Knight on e2 on his next move. I think the last thing we want is his knight sitting on a white square deep in our territory protected. So I'm not leaning b4 anymore. + Show Spoiler + Should be Nc3, not his King. Sorry about thiat | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 10 2011 18:46 Ng5 wrote: By the way guys, 14... Ba6 for me was very bad. It's in a lot of lines as a good possibility, but right there it was very bad. I thought I found a line for Ba6 that was pretty good for black. If you care to read it, it's spoiled below. On October 10 2011 02:57 mastergriggy wrote: Here's a line: + Show Spoiler + 14...Ba6 15. Rd1 Nxd2 16. Nxd2 (I suppose white could play Rxd2 but that lets Rb3, Rhb8, etc.) 16...Bd3 seems pretty forced but good for black. | ||
LaXerCannon
Canada558 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Our b2 pawn's a little weak -> b4 could solve this; it gives our bishop a little space while reducing the space of black's black bishop and b rook. Though this gives black's knight a jumpsquare to c3, it can't really accomplish much there Re1, prepares for an attack down the e-file, perhaps after a series of exchanges... Re1 a5, Nxe4 fxe5, Nd2 Rf8, f3... only problem is we drop our pawn after Ba4! Enpassant exf6 bxf6, Nxe4 dxe4, Ne5+ Bxe5, dxe5 Ke6 (get off that dangerous file!) ... this looks pretty good for white though the bishop is still stuck until b4 happens. If the bishop's stuck then the queenside rook is still stuck as well. Somewhere down the line we have to free the bishop from protecting the b2 pawn, his pieces are all free to move as they please while we've got a bishop married down to a pawn and a rook stuck because of that bishop. | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + a5? There is no way to defend the pawn here, so we would probably be forced to capture, doubling and isolating our a-pawns, and also opening up the file for his rook. Suppose then black plays Ba6, we play Re1, and suddenly c5! Our entire position is falling apart isn't it? And we are terribly underdeveloped. Black has all the initiative and play here imo. | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Here's what I got for analysis. Black can recapture one of two ways 15...Bxf6 16. Nxe4 dxe4 17. Ne5+ then 17...Bxe5 18. dxe5 Ke6 19. b4 a5 20. Bd2 Kxe5 21. bxa5 Kf6 22. Bf4 and white will get the c pawn ![]() or 17...Ke6 18. b4 then 18...a5 19. Nc6 Ra8 20. b5 looks great for white. ![]() or 18...Bxe5 19. dxe5 Kxe5 20. Bb2+ Kf4 looks terrible for black. ![]() or 18...Ba6 19. Re1 which just looks like it drops another pawn for black, The other option Black has it to recapture with the pawn 15...gxf6 16. b4 Rg8 17. Re1 Bb7 18. Nb3 and 19. Bf4 seems pretty solid for white. (Note black really can't play, 17...f5 because of the knight check and follow up which is brutal). ![]() Other moves that white has do not fare as well. 15. b4 a5 16. bxa5 Ba6 which complete nullifies the two a pawns as well as opening up a file for the rook. 15. Nxe4 fxe4 16. Ng5 h6 17. Nh3 g5 looks pretty awful for white as well, although white does have the protected passed pawn on e5. ![]() 15. Re1 c5 16. dxc5 Bxc5 17. Nxe4 fxe4 18. b4 at the least looks interesting. It's not the worse line for white ever, but the Bishop + rook pressure on the f2 pawn could be an issue. ![]() Overall, I think taking the pawn limits black's options the most to favor us. Therefore I choos exf6. | ||
Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
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