EPTA look at the Raven's role in TvZ - Page 7
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
It is ideally best vs mutas but yea.... really slow to get energy up to 125 and wastes starport build time.;/ | ||
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drdovetalk
Singapore27 Posts
I normally go FE -> ling -> fast infestor -> bling -> ultra. No mutas for me until I am approaching the 150 supply mark. I like early infestors because with good micro/creep and sling/bling, you can decimate a terran push that is 3 times your army value before they reach your base. The raven-massing terran opened with early dual gas and dual starports. As my infestors popped, 2 banshees and 2 ravens came, which I fended off easily with FG and queens. I normally keep a low bling count since I feel that they should be morphed only if necessary. Then the turning point came. 6 ravens and a ton of marines starting marching in just as my ultras were being made. The marines wouldn't normally be a problem with infestor/bling, but they held back while the ravens flew over a chasm, dropped ~15 auto turrets inside my base and flew off. The ball of 150hp turrets proved too much for my lings to take on and I was trying to reserve the banes for the potential marine push.A decent amount of dmg was done to my tech buildings and eco before the ultras popped to mop up the turrets. I was trying to FG and IT-snipe the ravens but getting close was a real problem as more turrets were being dropped and the marine threat loomed closer. My 2-base gas income had to be split between more infestors (to get more FGs off the ravens) and ultras + armor upgrade to take out the turrets. The creep I had earlier spread halfway cross the map has been killed off and I scout forward. Ultras eventually fell because their armor was not high enough to deflect most of the autoturret damage. Eventually I was contained to 2 base as ravens massed. Starved out and GG. On reflection, I felt that I should have switched from ultras to hydras (1 ultra = 4 hydras of gas) and used some blings on the clumped turrets to break a safe path for my infestors and hydras to get at the ravens. This way, it might have been possible to snipe down the ravens faster after a good FG. Perhaps a way against mass raven/marine is to go for a little more infestors (FG the ravens/marines), spend some gas on hydras to snipe FGed ravens (say 10 hydras?) and the rest into ling/bling in a 3:1 ratio. Conserve a little gas to tech to ultra since ravens are helpless against them. Once you break the mid-game push, you got a decent window to expand because ravens take a long time to build and u need only fear a critical mass of ravens. If the Terran tries the same push after that, go aggressive with Ultras at the front. With high armor, ultras barely take damage from marines and autoturrets. | ||
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mardi
United States1164 Posts
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MrArarat
Argentina132 Posts
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
If not, I guess ravens are intended to be used in large numbers, unless you just have one for PDDs and detection. | ||
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starckr
26 Posts
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NikonTC
United Kingdom418 Posts
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
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adius
United States249 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On November 04 2010 05:32 out4blood wrote: 1 Raven is easily cost effective just for the anti-creep capability. If you save just one scan, you have already paid for your Raven. Ehm. Given that you need tech lab as well for raven. 1 raven = 4-6 scans. | ||
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adius
United States249 Posts
On November 04 2010 05:44 Hider wrote: Ehm. Given that you need tech lab as well for raven. 1 raven = 4-6 scans. You can make banshees or medivacs out of it before and/or after the raven. | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
No one made it, everyone just massed muta+bling and hydra roach. Now its a staple unit. First off, aside from being a spellcaster, ITS A DETECTOR AS WELL. PDD Is AMAZING in TvP and TvT. Auto Turret is a nice compliment, can harass, Stop mining at expansions(or own mineral lines lol)or make last ditch defense from attacks. HSM is the only thing that I feel needs to be reduced from 125 to 75, the spell is fine, it just hasnt been experimented enough in ZvT and PvT. HSM one hits Banelings, Sentries, High templar, Infestors, Ghosts ect. People think HSM should be the terran psionic storm, its not, its ment to snipe or harass high priority units. I do agree that the cost of HSM energy wise is a little ridiculous, And I do agree that at its current energy cvost its not worth it, but reducing to 75 would make it a great spell. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
On October 21 2010 17:01 Nazza wrote: Seeker Missile - "Let's make an ability that people can RUN AWAY FROM!" Once the SM gets close enough it accelerates and is impossible to escape from. Everything that can hit the Raven for Zerg is eaten up by PDD. You can drop a PDD to get close and then BOOM. There are also situations where you would want your opponent to run away such as breaking a contain, so thats another way to use them. Going Marine + Medivac + Raven would be the best combo imo for strength per cost. It would make a very strong drop forces. If you had 3 groups of 3 medivacs all full of marines with 1 or 2 ravens escorting then you could execute a very powerful triple drop that would be very difficult for any Zerg to handle. This is my vision for future TvZ. The biggest reason for lack of Ravens and their SM vZ in my eyes is the infestors neural parasite. Sniping infestors will be a very high priority for Terrans in the future. This kind of plays biggest weakness would be a counterattack, luckily Planetary Fortresses exist  | ||
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
TL:DR - If you cast the HSM from close enough range it may hurt or even kill the Raven, but you can guarantee it will hit its target. Placing an HSM correctly in an SC2 unit ball even if it kills the Raven will do cost effective damage. Considering the reduced damage on Tank attacks, it could be even more effective than it once was. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
1. It's good damage with a pretty reasonable splash radius. That damage does not get reduced by anything like armor which is a nice benefit. 2. It denies a HUGE amount of space. A SM, when it's non-obvious what the intended target is, denies space in a radius that's pretty significant. It's not like storm that only denies a small area of it's actual damage. A pack of units targeted by SM have to run away or perpendicular to seeker missile, almost 180 degrees of movement is immediately denied for the pack of units. Now there are problems with SM and I would put them like this... 1. Energy too much. DO NOT FIX THIS. SM is incredibly powerful and 2 SMs or 1 SM + PDD from 1 raven would be way too much. 2. Upgrades too expensive. This is the #1 problem imo. You pretty much need the boosted starting energy to cast SM so that's 300/300 to really get much out of SM. I'd like to see one, or both of the upgrades dropped to 100/100 and maybe reduce research time. SM is not as powerful as warp + storm, it should be more reachable. This is especially true with the 3rd SM related upgrade to increase its flight time that's also 150/150. 3. Range too short. While I don't think 9 range would be balanced, 6 range is ridiculous. There's almost no way for a raven to safely cast SM. Range 7 or 8 would help this spell tremendously. 4. Splash drop off a little too harsh. With the 2.4->2.0 range decrease the 1x damage radius should be boosted to something like .8 so it's 0-.8 = 1x, .8-1.6=.5, 1.6-2=.25 rather than what we have now. As for ZvT ravens can be really strong. They deny creep and auto-turrets are really useful in battle for their ability to restrict space and tank damage. This is especially true when facing something like banelings where the Zerg player needs to be able to navigate around the turrets without taking heavy losses. | ||
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
On November 04 2010 06:17 Logo wrote: I think people underestimate the effect SM. It's actually really really fucking good in a bubble. Meaning if you have an SM heading towards something it's fucking awesome. 1. It's good damage with a pretty reasonable splash radius. That damage does not get reduced by anything like armor which is a nice benefit. 2. It denies a HUGE amount of space. A SM, when it's non-obvious what the intended target is, denies space in a radius that's pretty significant. It's not like storm that only denies a small area of it's actual damage. A pack of units targeted by SM have to run away or perpendicular to seeker missile, almost 180 degrees of movement is immediately denied for the pack of units. Now there are problems with SM and I would put them like this... 1. Energy too much. DO NOT FIX THIS. SM is incredibly powerful and 2 SMs or 1 SM + PDD from 1 raven would be way too much. 2. Upgrades too expensive. This is the #1 problem imo. You pretty much need the boosted starting energy to cast SM so that's 300/300 to really get much out of SM. I'd like to see one, or both of the upgrades dropped to 100/100 and maybe reduce research time. SM is not as powerful as warp + storm, it should be more reachable. This is especially true with the 3rd SM related upgrade to increase its flight time that's also 150/150. 3. Range too short. While I don't think 9 range would be balanced, 6 range is ridiculous. There's almost no way for a raven to safely cast SM. Range 7 or 8 would help this spell tremendously. 4. Splash drop off a little too harsh. With the 2.4->2.0 range decrease the 1x damage radius should be boosted to something like .8 so it's 0-.8 = 1x, .8-1.6=.5, 1.6-2=.25 rather than what we have now. As for ZvT ravens can be really strong. They deny creep and auto-turrets are really useful in battle for their ability to restrict space and tank damage. This is especially true when facing something like banelings where the Zerg player needs to be able to navigate around the turrets without taking heavy losses. Auto-turret harass on out-lying Zerg bases not only slows their expanding, but can actually help to keep them from going out and harassing you. The turrets with upgrade have a 240 second timer, that means the opponent Zerg or otherwise HAS to come and deal with them, or let them kill everything where they were dropped. The game is young still and tons of harass, micro, and unit control trick have yet to be found. I really wish people would not dismiss spells/units as useless just because we haven't YET found a use. | ||
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yoplate
United States332 Posts
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
On November 04 2010 06:45 yoplate wrote: PDD is an AMAZING ability in TvP and TvT, if you have the gas to get some ravens, PDD can make your vikings beat their vikings, or can negate stalkers entirely. I have not found a use for them in TvZ, as thors are much better against mutas, and I feel like banshees come out sooner and are better in general than ravens. They definitely are a niche unit but for those of us that remember, Sci Vessels and their current use in BW took a very long time to fully develop. I'm sure we should expect nothing less from the Raven. | ||
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
On November 04 2010 05:44 Hider wrote: Ehm. Given that you need tech lab as well for raven. 1 raven = 4-6 scans. LOLWUT?! Tech lab is 50/25. How do you figure that is worth 1200-1800 minerals?! | ||
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