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What in general is this openers response to standard 11/12rax based aggression play?
Any specific earlier-gas timings or something like that?
The reason I'm asking is that after getting stomped a couple times by it, I have figured that I lack the power to actually push the Terran back. I stop the first Marines and the SCV from getting a Bunker up but the Terran just continues the pressure and forces an extreme response from myself. Either spines, constant unit production or if I mess up, both.
Or he just gets Tanks and Sieges me before I get speed and I'm most likely boned.
The problem I'm having is that without Ling Speed, I really can't scout the front for unit compositions as the Terran just continues aggression and slow Lings aren't that good against Marines and/or Hellions. So the Terran can choose an unit composition for a 3rd/4th wave and I most likely cannot scout for it before it's en-route when it might be too late.
Am I overthinking this or is there a specific timing change on gas timings and what-not when a 2rax is scouted?
A replay for those interested. Also, I kinda dislike laddering as you might notice from the replay. That doesn't really help my practice as my practice partners are mostly Protoss and low in count in general.
My apologies if that has been answered before in this thread.
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On May 19 2011 06:09 Airact wrote:What in general is this openers response to standard 11/12rax based aggression play? Any specific earlier-gas timings or something like that? The reason I'm asking is that after getting stomped a couple times by it, I have figured that I lack the power to actually push the Terran back. I stop the first Marines and the SCV from getting a Bunker up but the Terran just continues the pressure and forces an extreme response from myself. Either spines, constant unit production or if I mess up, both. Or he just gets Tanks and Sieges me before I get speed and I'm most likely boned. The problem I'm having is that without Ling Speed, I really can't scout the front for unit compositions as the Terran just continues aggression and slow Lings aren't that good against Marines and/or Hellions. So the Terran can choose an unit composition for a 3rd/4th wave and I most likely cannot scout for it before it's en-route when it might be too late. Am I overthinking this or is there a specific timing change on gas timings and what-not when a 2rax is scouted? A replay for those interested. Also, I kinda dislike laddering as you might notice from the replay. That doesn't really help my practice as my practice partners are mostly Protoss and low in count in general. My apologies if that has been answered before in this thread.
Warning GSTL Spoiler
+ Show Spoiler + In the GSTL IM_DongRaeGu uses this build to take out Marineking who opens up with some bunker harass. The only difference between Donraegu opener and Spanishiwas is that Donraegu opens 14 pool 15 hatch and gets 6 lings out asap to deal with the early marine pressure instead of the 16 hatch 15 pool or 13 hatch 15 pool spanishiwa has been doing. From there Donraegu gets about 40 drones and 4 queens before taking all 4 gas geysers just like spanishiwa. Also check out Donraegu Vs OgsSupernova. Donraegu lets 2 bunkers finish at his natural while he gets a roach warren in his main. 5 roaches come out in time to clean up the 2 bunkers and some hellion harass that was on the way.
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On May 19 2011 08:21 SC2-Dethklok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 06:09 Airact wrote:What in general is this openers response to standard 11/12rax based aggression play? Any specific earlier-gas timings or something like that? The reason I'm asking is that after getting stomped a couple times by it, I have figured that I lack the power to actually push the Terran back. I stop the first Marines and the SCV from getting a Bunker up but the Terran just continues the pressure and forces an extreme response from myself. Either spines, constant unit production or if I mess up, both. Or he just gets Tanks and Sieges me before I get speed and I'm most likely boned. The problem I'm having is that without Ling Speed, I really can't scout the front for unit compositions as the Terran just continues aggression and slow Lings aren't that good against Marines and/or Hellions. So the Terran can choose an unit composition for a 3rd/4th wave and I most likely cannot scout for it before it's en-route when it might be too late. Am I overthinking this or is there a specific timing change on gas timings and what-not when a 2rax is scouted? A replay for those interested. Also, I kinda dislike laddering as you might notice from the replay. That doesn't really help my practice as my practice partners are mostly Protoss and low in count in general. My apologies if that has been answered before in this thread. Warning GSTL Spoiler + Show Spoiler + In the GSTL IM_DongRaeGu uses this build to take out Marineking who opens up with some bunker harass. The only difference between Donraegu opener and Spanishiwas is that Donraegu opens 14 pool 15 hatch and gets 6 lings out asap to deal with the early marine pressure instead of the 16 hatch 15 pool or 13 hatch 15 pool spanishiwa has been doing. From there Donraegu gets about 40 drones and 4 queens before taking all 4 gas geysers just like spanishiwa. Also check out Donraegu Vs OgsSupernova. Donraegu lets 2 bunkers finish at his natural while he gets a roach warren in his main. 5 roaches come out in time to clean up the 2 bunkers and some hellion harass that was on the way.
Possible GSTL Spoilers
+ Show Spoiler + I didn't see the Marineking game, but I'll ask: How did Dong know that Marineking didn't go for faster Tanks to push him when he was weak meaning that when he didn't have Ling speed to properly kill a Tank push. Also, what made him decide Roaches against Supernova.
I saw it live and I have been suggested Roaches before against 2rax and other Bunker pressure plays but I don't really know the correct gas timings and what-not to actually use it.
Well I think it's just me needing to lose 2 thousand times against solid Terrans and being demoted to Platinum a couple days before the problems arise doesn't help, at all. As those tend to be not-so-solid. Not that I am but still... Otherwise I don't really mind losing the needed amount.
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but this build loses to Liquid`Nazgul's Blink Stalker 4gate. I don't mean "you're at a significant disadvantage", I mean "you cannot win (as long as the Protoss doesn't screw up majorly)". In order to pin down Blink Stalkers, you need to have Speedlings. Slow Zerglings will get kited to infinity and burn up all your larvae. Queens are obviously useless, and Spine Crawlers will just be focus fired one by one. The Protoss will build up a larger and larger Stalker ball that the Zerg cannot kill and whittle down the Zerg's resources until the expansion is broken. It might be possible to get gas in time for speed, but the huge time on Metabolic Boost and the delay to start mining gas will probably be just too much to reasonably start producing units. I can't see this build being used against Protoss at a competitive level if the Protoss can scout it and open with Blink Stalkers.
I may be wrong. Please, if you can, prove me wrong.
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Well, Blink stalkers are annoying to handle, but it's very far from a hard-counter.
If you scout a 1base 4gate all-in you only need to survive in order to win, so there really is no limit on the number of spines you can make. Very few people realise that you should group your spine crawlers in a hotkey group and let them attack together. 6 Spines oneshot a stalker and your 6 queens can transfuse for an almost infinite of time.
Naturally, if the natural is wide open you're screwed, but Spanishiwa doesn't really work well on those maps.
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So I just played vs a guy who took no gas early, Spanishiwa style.
My response was to make stalkers off 1 gate to be annoying since he can't have slings, then expand off that 1 gate since he can't have slings, take all 4 gas, start +1 weapons (chrono), drop a few cannons in case he attacks with roach/sling, tech to archives, build 8 gateways and a robo for obs, go kill him with 5-6 archons and some supporting zealot/stalker. He had a big sling army with 8 or so mutas, you can guess how it went.
Anyways, is this or similar a good way to beat this late gas style? I know know know for sure you won't be pressuring me fast so I can be greedy, but I don't need 3 bases or anything, just tech up and make a lot of gates. Like a 6 gate basically, but a little later and I think you need roaches to deal with it. Transfuse + spines stops working when I have access to HT for feedback -> archon, and obv you can't use mutas, lings, banes, or (maybe) many hydras.
Also I doubt it matters but the observer saw his army comp before I commited to building the archons. Had loads of banked gas tho so not like i was gonna change much, maybe get charge and storm vs hydras or build some late sentries for FF traps and/or lay down another robo for immortals vs roach.
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On May 19 2011 20:15 Kraelog wrote:
Well, Blink stalkers are annoying to handle, but it's very far from a hard-counter.
If you scout a 1base 4gate all-in you only need to survive in order to win, so there really is no limit on the number of spines you can make. Very few people realise that you should group your spine crawlers in a hotkey group and let them attack together. 6 Spines oneshot a stalker and your 6 queens can transfuse for an almost infinite of time.
Naturally, if the natural is wide open you're screwed, but Spanishiwa doesn't really work well on those maps.
In that situation the Protoss can sacrifice 2-3 Stalkers to blink past all the Spines and kill the main. A proxy Pylon can then allow warping into the main.
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On May 19 2011 20:56 Keilah wrote:
So I just played vs a guy who took no gas early, Spanishiwa style.
My response was to make stalkers off 1 gate to be annoying since he can't have slings, then expand off that 1 gate since he can't have slings, take all 4 gas, start +1 weapons (chrono), drop a few cannons in case he attacks with roach/sling, tech to archives, build 8 gateways and a robo for obs, go kill him with 5-6 archons and some supporting zealot/stalker. He had a big sling army with 8 or so mutas, you can guess how it went.
Anyways, is this or similar a good way to beat this late gas style? I know know know for sure you won't be pressuring me fast so I can be greedy, but I don't need 3 bases or anything, just tech up and make a lot of gates. Like a 6 gate basically, but a little later and I think you need roaches to deal with it. Transfuse + spines stops working when I have access to HT for feedback -> archon, and obv you can't use mutas, lings, banes, or (maybe) many hydras.
Also I doubt it matters but the observer saw his army comp before I commited to building the archons. Had loads of banked gas tho so not like i was gonna change much, maybe get charge and storm vs hydras or build some late sentries for FF traps and/or lay down another robo for immortals vs roach.
At least my variation of "The Ice Fisher", drop tech is done at around 11-11:30 and if I time it correctly, my push should be hitting your base at around the same time with Banelings in Overlords.
Replay.
I time my push poorly and the attack commences on 12:30 but I still ended up ahead and had Mutas coming shortly after with my 3rd base coming up.
Do you have Archons ready at that point and what units can you support with them? I don't say my variation kills the Archon play, but I want to know what units will you have and how do you fare against the drop push?
On May 19 2011 21:08 Acritter wrote:
In that situation the Protoss can sacrifice 2-3 Stalkers to blink past all the Spines and kill the main. A proxy Pylon can then allow warping into the main.
I thought Queens blocking the ramp as low as possible was pretty obvious when a Twilight Council is scouted, or even a heavy Stalker 4gate.
I doubt it will kill you if you are a bit more cautious about it anyway even if it's not a Blink 4gate.
How many Queens can I get against a Twilight Council 4gate when compared to standard 4gate?
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On May 19 2011 20:56 Keilah wrote:
So I just played vs a guy who took no gas early, Spanishiwa style.
My response was to make stalkers off 1 gate to be annoying since he can't have slings, then expand off that 1 gate since he can't have slings, take all 4 gas, start +1 weapons (chrono), drop a few cannons in case he attacks with roach/sling, tech to archives, build 8 gateways and a robo for obs, go kill him with 5-6 archons and some supporting zealot/stalker. He had a big sling army with 8 or so mutas, you can guess how it went.
Anyways, is this or similar a good way to beat this late gas style? I know know know for sure you won't be pressuring me fast so I can be greedy, but I don't need 3 bases or anything, just tech up and make a lot of gates. Like a 6 gate basically, but a little later and I think you need roaches to deal with it. Transfuse + spines stops working when I have access to HT for feedback -> archon, and obv you can't use mutas, lings, banes, or (maybe) many hydras.
Also I doubt it matters but the observer saw his army comp before I commited to building the archons. Had loads of banked gas tho so not like i was gonna change much, maybe get charge and storm vs hydras or build some late sentries for FF traps and/or lay down another robo for immortals vs roach.
If he had only slings and mutas, he did probably scout quite poorly. The style is heavily based on scouting and adapting, sticking to slings against zealots and archons is quite stupid.
I'd appreciate a replay.
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I'll check replay in a minute but pretty sure I was ready about 1min before that. I'll need the replay for unit counts. The build was nowhere near refined tho.
Are 1.3.3 reps uploadable yet? Anyways my opponent was pretty bad so a rep proves nothing, just wondering if my concept was sound. Only thing for him to scout is a forge, robo, twilight, many gates, and a standard gateway mix. Then he has 67s from when my archives goes down to when archons are done merging, not much time to spot the single building and alter his comp. Altho I'd have made roaches vs mass gates tbh.
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OK so at 10:30 I had 3 zlot 2 stalker 5 sentry 1 HT 1 archon 1 observer, with +1 attack and +2 at 50% complete. My 8th gate completed at 10:50, at 11:00 I had 4 zlots 5 stalkers 5 sentries 3 archons 2 observers, 45 probes and +2 at 118/190 (I mention this because it seems awkward to attack with such an important upgrade so close to completion).
I had > 100 chronoboost energy total, I supply blocked a few times, build was not smooth, etc etc so I assume with smoother play you could throw in maybe 2-5 more gateway units, and either be just finished +1 or already done +2.
Obv my unit count is stupid low until I started to explode around 11:00, but I suppose the question is: vs Spanishiwa style, is it safe to do that? I built 3 safety cannons, the third finishing around 9:15 (the first actually got killed carelessly but w/e).
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On May 19 2011 21:08 Acritter wrote:
In that situation the Protoss can sacrifice 2-3 Stalkers to blink past all the Spines and kill the main. A proxy Pylon can then allow warping into the main.
If he would blink into the Spines with 6 queens and a bunch of slowlings, he would die pretty damn fast. Just trying to run up the main ramp can easily be blocked with buildings/lings/queens.
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On May 19 2011 13:34 Airact wrote:Possible GSTL Spoilers + Show Spoiler + I didn't see the Marineking game, but I'll ask: How did Dong know that Marineking didn't go for faster Tanks to push him when he was weak meaning that when he didn't have Ling speed to properly kill a Tank push. Also, what made him decide Roaches against Supernova.
I saw it live and I have been suggested Roaches before against 2rax and other Bunker pressure plays but I don't really know the correct gas timings and what-not to actually use it.
Well I think it's just me needing to lose 2 thousand times against solid Terrans and being demoted to Platinum a couple days before the problems arise doesn't help, at all. As those tend to be not-so-solid. Not that I am but still... Otherwise I don't really mind losing the needed amount.
+ Show Spoiler +DRG kept a group of lings right outside MK base. MK walled in with 3 rax and kept all of his marines right behind the barrack (one with a tech lab to upgrade stim) while he expanded. DRG was able to keep tabs on MK army so he knew tanks wernt coming yet. I dont think roaches would work vs 2 rax MK gets to DRG base at about 3:45 if you go for a fast expand as zerg you cant get roachs out until about 5:30 Vs Supernova DRG opend 15 hatch 16 pool when DRG drone scout gets to supernovas base he scouts 1 rax with a gas geysers up and an orbital command morphing he throws down his extractor when his pool is about half done which happened to be at 17 supply. When his pool finishes he starts a queen and then a roach warren immediately. I assume he did this because he knew hellions were on the way and a 1 rax bunker rush is a lot easier to hold than a 2 rax bunker rush DRG was able to let his hatchery take some shots from the marines while he waited for his roaches had he done this vs MK he would have lost the game.
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Thank you, Spanishwa. I just beat a protoss who had a 200/200 deathball with colossi, void rays and stalkers. By the time he came to kill me I had ultras, zerglings, banelings and mutas. Couldn't kill it entirely the first time (bad micro, most likely), but I macroed up another max army fast and he was done.
I don't think I've ever done that before. Deathballs used to be auto-gg for me.
Also beat a Terran who harassed me heavily, same story. Held it off, prevented him from expanding, win.
I did lose a ZvZ because I get outmacroed every single mirror matchup I play, but I'm learning.
So anyway, thanks for the awesome build. Feels more natural for me, just like you said in the OP.
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I have played with this build some fifty games and I really like it . Just one thing that I am not sure: is the roach/ling pressure against 3 gate into FE still viable with this late gas and lair? I was not able to pull it off efficiently. Still, I am quite bad... Was someone able to do it? How does the timing / BO works after the expo/drones?
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On May 20 2011 22:45 Trippy380 wrote:I have played with this build some fifty games and I really like it . Just one thing that I am not sure: is the roach/ling pressure against 3 gate into FE still viable with this late gas and lair? I was not able to pull it off efficiently. Still, I am quite bad... Was someone able to do it? How does the timing / BO works after the expo/drones?
Thought I'd churp in, most of my ZvP games are won from attacking the Toss's natural, they can't defend it.
This is how it opens.
Nogas FE.
at 40 food (or when you take all 4 gases) you can afford 2 more hatcheries and 1 more queen if going pure ling like I do.
I place the hatcheries at expos, and send queens to them, pooping creep along the way.
Get my 1-1, ling speed (whch finishes at 10 minutes 30 seconds ingame), by the time my ling speed finishes my infestor energy is starting, 30 seconds later.. 5-6 infestors are out.
Most toss timing attacks come as my infestors are nearly done, so its perfect timing, as soon as my energy is done, I get neural parasite. Every time.
If its makes with destructable rocks such as The Shattered Temple (my win rate on this map is 75% vs everything, vs Toss its 95%) I send 7-8 lings to knock down all the rocks on the map, besides his gold.
Sharking with my lings, poking into his natural to make him waste force fields..
If he doesnt go collosi, which I find most Protoss don't for some reason any more I attack when ym infestors pop, spamming fungal on his sentries.
If he does have collosi I wait for neural parasite, I normally have around 10-11 infestors by the time neural is done, and some are at full energy.
I also fully saturate my 2 other bases between it all, normally when my infestors are building I saturate them. As I'm normally safe.
I also get Hive when my infestors are building, around 13-15 minute mark depending on beginning pressure and reactions.
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@ B34ST: This followup looks really interessting. I tryed it, but dont really get the timings. Would you be so kind to post a replay? That would be AWESOME!
Cheers,
enykie
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On May 19 2011 20:56 Keilah wrote:
So I just played vs a guy who took no gas early, Spanishiwa style.
My response was to make stalkers off 1 gate to be annoying since he can't have slings, then expand off that 1 gate since he can't have slings, take all 4 gas, start +1 weapons (chrono), drop a few cannons in case he attacks with roach/sling, tech to archives, build 8 gateways and a robo for obs, go kill him with 5-6 archons and some supporting zealot/stalker. He had a big sling army with 8 or so mutas, you can guess how it went.
Anyways, is this or similar a good way to beat this late gas style? I know know know for sure you won't be pressuring me fast so I can be greedy, but I don't need 3 bases or anything, just tech up and make a lot of gates. Like a 6 gate basically, but a little later and I think you need roaches to deal with it. Transfuse + spines stops working when I have access to HT for feedback -> archon, and obv you can't use mutas, lings, banes, or (maybe) many hydras.
Also I doubt it matters but the observer saw his army comp before I commited to building the archons. Had loads of banked gas tho so not like i was gonna change much, maybe get charge and storm vs hydras or build some late sentries for FF traps and/or lay down another robo for immortals vs roach.
Your early stalker aggression into fast expansion is definitely a good response to Spanishiwas opening, the early aggression might make the zerg build too many spines and slow lings, and the early expansion makes sure the zerg doesn't completely outrun you in economy.
That said, zlot/archon is definitely not "THE" counter to Spanishiwa style. Personally, I always go mass roach vs Protoss as soon as my two bases are fully saturated which gives me a TON of well-upgraded roaches.
I guess what I mean is that you can't really find any composition to counter because Spanishiwas style is just an amazing opening, you can pretty much do anything afterwards. It's common to go mass-lings because you're floating minerals, but you don't have to. You can basically go immediately from spanishiwa into ultras if you want (not that I recommend it), so you can't blindly counter the zerg simply by knowing it's the spanishiwa opening. The follow up can be litteraly anything.
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Thankx you spanishiwa for this great post and strategy. This is refreshing !
It took me a while to get used to it, but it works well for me in ZvP and ZvT. In ZvZ it takes too much time to secure the expand against the speedlings. 
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How are you guys dealing with a 1base marine tank push? I am confused as to how to deal with this without speed/banelings
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EPT
