• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:11
CEST 17:11
KST 00:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced0Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles5[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
i aint gon lie to u bruh... ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall SC uni coach streams logging into betting site
Tourneys
[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Summer Games Done Quick 2024!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 778 users

[G] TheCore - Advanced Keyboard Layout - Page 46

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 44 45 46 47 48 432 Next
Akylol
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany9 Posts
July 30 2012 20:45 GMT
#901
On July 31 2012 05:31 Morton wrote:

purely from an anatomical standpoint, your thumb is the most capable finger you have. with the ring finger being the least (pinkie is close behind). That is why it is moved to the right side of the keyboard. It gives the most capable finger the maximum opportunity to use buttons, where as the traditional setup seems to utilize your two weakest fingers to press the most used buttons.

as far as placing your hand on the keyboard differently, do you really hold you hand on the home row keys when you play starcraft? Most people using basic hotkeys that I know basically stretch their hand over the keyboard with their pinkie centered on shift/control.


There are a lot if important Keybind bound to "J" and i need to push that with my pinkie? If the pinkie is the least capable (together with the ring figner) why are so many important things bound to my 2 "weakest" fingers?

I was trying Core for some games but i could not get used to it yet. I may try but for now i am using QWERTZ- Grid (german layout) and my pinkie can be on shift or crtl without having problem. I am also used to the placement of the fingers because i write like this. I am still skeptical if the change would be worth the effort.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-01 17:00:54
July 30 2012 20:50 GMT
#902
If you want to support TheCore please tweet @Artosis with a link to this thread asking him to check out TheCore and tell us what he thinks. Works for Facebook too. www.facebook.com/artosis
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
July 30 2012 21:01 GMT
#903
On July 31 2012 05:23 JaKaTaK wrote:
The reason for the thumb being on shift and not another finger is that is provides for the most ergonomic hand position, while letting you combine with the maximum number of keys. If any of the 4 other fingers are used for shift, you lose a bunch of combinations. If you use your pinky for shift, you cannot use any key normally pressed with the pinky in combination with shift without moving your hand considerably, which is both non-ergonomic and inefficient. Additionally, you can combine more keys with shift on the thumb because of the larger space between your thumb and index finger. The distance you can reach from your thumb to your pinky is far greater than from your pinky to index. It also allows for you to press Ctrl+shift at the same time with 1 finger. This opens up new options for speed and efficiency that the pinky could not do as ergonomically.

Does that make sense to you?

Yes, this makes sense (in particular, a lot more sense than the "you have to contort your hand to press shift with your pinky" argument -- I think anyone playing SC2 with default hotkeys will have their pinky resting on shift). I'm willing to give it another shot. I do have one follow-up question -- with TheCore, what button do I press to deselect whatever I have selected? I need this to set up my camera bindings at the beginning of the game.
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
July 30 2012 21:04 GMT
#904
@JDub
Shift+click on the main screen (not wireframe area). The shift+click, ctrl+click and shfit+ctrl+click functions are unchangeable at this point.
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
July 30 2012 21:06 GMT
#905
On July 31 2012 06:04 JaKaTaK wrote:
@JDub
Shift+click on the main screen (not wireframe area). The shift+click, ctrl+click and shfit+ctrl+click functions are unchangeable at this point.

Thanks. It's funny to run into something so simple that I've never learned to do in 1000s of games playing SC2.
SirPsychoMantis
Profile Joined December 2011
United States180 Posts
July 30 2012 21:10 GMT
#906
Hey Core people, I posted my new hotkey trainer over in sc2 general. Please give it a try if you are looking at trying out TheCore for the first time.

For experienced Core people, please let me know if there are any bugs when using TheCore with my program.
Zerg #1
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-30 22:09:39
July 30 2012 21:11 GMT
#907
On July 31 2012 06:10 SirPsychoMantis wrote:
Hey Core people, I posted my new hotkey trainer over in sc2 general. Please give it a try if you are looking at trying out TheCore for the first time.

For experienced Core people, please let me know if there are any bugs when using TheCore with my program.


Hell yea SirPsychoMantis! I will put it up on the OP :D

EDIT: We'll be starting on the different layouts for different hand sizes in the near future. This is one of the last big steps necessary before we move on to a full release and will take us from 16 layout choices to 48 layout choices (Small Medium and Large sized hands).

PHATENCY
I need to know what you input format is for the program that translates keyboards, or, if you wouldn't mind making and "imaginary" keyboard that would move all the keys in the layout either one key to the left, or one key to the right. Thanks :D
Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-30 22:49:53
July 30 2012 22:34 GMT
#908
Hey guys, Artosis just released his hotkey vid. It's less a tutorial, and more a conversation starter, which is great! The reddit thread is starting some good conversation, If you use reddit and want to upvote the thread and post for this layout, check the thread, and TheCore post.

We'll be looking through the rest of the posts there for ways to improve theCore.

Thanks guys!

EDIT:looks like JaK beat me to is by 5 hours. Ha ha ha ha.
Morton
Profile Joined July 2012
United States152 Posts
July 30 2012 23:26 GMT
#909
On July 31 2012 05:45 Akylol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2012 05:31 Morton wrote:

purely from an anatomical standpoint, your thumb is the most capable finger you have. with the ring finger being the least (pinkie is close behind). That is why it is moved to the right side of the keyboard. It gives the most capable finger the maximum opportunity to use buttons, where as the traditional setup seems to utilize your two weakest fingers to press the most used buttons.

as far as placing your hand on the keyboard differently, do you really hold you hand on the home row keys when you play starcraft? Most people using basic hotkeys that I know basically stretch their hand over the keyboard with their pinkie centered on shift/control.


There are a lot if important Keybind bound to "J" and i need to push that with my pinkie? If the pinkie is the least capable (together with the ring figner) why are so many important things bound to my 2 "weakest" fingers?

I was trying Core for some games but i could not get used to it yet. I may try but for now i am using QWERTZ- Grid (german layout) and my pinkie can be on shift or crtl without having problem. I am also used to the placement of the fingers because i write like this. I am still skeptical if the change would be worth the effort.


I used "strong" and "weak" incorrectly in that above post.

I was thinking more in terms of range of motion than actual muscle strength. While the pinkie is very strong in terms of a downward, grabbing motion, it has very imprecise horizontal control when separating from the ring finger.

So for instance, using the normal setup, if I am trying to press ctrl+anything, I must spread my pinkie away from my ring finger, which is bad for two reasons:

The ring and pinkie, which are connected, are separated and because of that each is harder to control precisely
The pinkie is usually used as a pivot point (also bad but more on that below) resting on shift, but when you move it to control, it moves your entire hand frame away from the pivot it is used to, which increases the chance of miss clicks.

The thumb on the other hand has a very wide range of motion, and it is easy to control that entire range. This allows the thumb to manage the multiple keypresses that it is responsible for better. However, more importantly it makes it a better pivot point than the pinkie.

The reason for this is that you have better awareness of where your thumb is in space than you do your pinkie. A good illustration of this is violinists. When you are playing violin and you want to shift up on the fingerboard, you do not move your index-pinkie fingers up the fingerboard to where you think the note is. Rather you use your thumb to guide your hand to a memorized position and then place your fingers down.

However, the pinkie/ring finger are very good at quickly repeating vertical movements like drumming. So it makes sense for "J" and "I" to be the most common unit build keys as well as H being stop for stutter step micro.

However that being said. I think there are still small awkward movements with the build, like that pressing N is just as difficult as the standard setup's shift to ctrl movement (but obviously not as vital as shift/ctrl), and pressing something along the lines of ctrl+???? then H or U can completely throw my hand off (trying to build marines pressing H or scvs pressing U). But compared to the standard hotkey setup, these problems are very minor.
Kaz_Coaching
Profile Joined October 2010
United States83 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-31 04:41:28
July 31 2012 04:38 GMT
#910
On July 31 2012 03:16 JaKaTaK wrote:
I'm thinking about making the cancel and idle worker keys more accessible.

How do you guys feel about
6 for cancel (hit it with the ring finger, should feel similar to the old hitting escape and easier than F8) and
= or Backspace for idle worker?

EDIT: 7 for cancel and ` for idle worker for lefties



6 is a little too far away for my comfort, I'd rather stick with the F8 and F9 keys. Might be personal preferance but they feel a lot easier to reach. I'd prefer = as a control group over ].

I've gone to remapping my camra groups. alt JIOPK for setting, and ctrl to jump to them. I use the subgroup on P as a hatch tap, so I don't remap it often. I use ctrl shift for setting the control group on P, and still have shift mapped as the add to group, so I use that for initially setting the hatchery to the group..

SPARTAN-001
Profile Joined April 2012
United States10 Posts
July 31 2012 05:30 GMT
#911
On July 31 2012 03:16 JaKaTaK wrote:
I'm thinking about making the cancel and idle worker keys more accessible.

How do you guys feel about
6 for cancel (hit it with the ring finger, should feel similar to the old hitting escape and easier than F8) and
= or Backspace for idle worker?

EDIT: 7 for cancel and ` for idle worker for lefties


I like having F8 for cancel, personally. Because of the ways the F keys are on most keyboards, F8 is easy to hit without thinking about, compared to 6, which is in the middle of a bunch of other keys.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
July 31 2012 05:55 GMT
#912
I like the general idea, but I would like to comment on the "less strain" part.
Sure, developing a keyboard layout to minimize hand strain is good, but the fact is, your mouse hand will always be the limiting endurance factor in your play, not your keyboard hand. I've never heard of progamers with their keyboard hand hurting after playing, while it's way more common for their mouse hand. Most players will be just fine playing with slighty customized hotkeys based on the original layout (not this completely revamped system).
I moved a couple of hotkeys around in my setup myself, and my left hand (keyboard hand) can go on for hours without feeling anything, while my right hand (although I've looked for the best position possible) will tire after like 5-6 hours of non stop playing at relatively decent APM (which I would assume is pretty normal and not really worrying, I'm not a pro or anything).
You can't really play anymore when your mouse hand is tired/hurts, whichever fancy keyboard layout you use, so I would keep it simple and not get too excited over a potential revolutionary ultimate keyboard layout.

Still, nice job gathering all those data and designing this smart system.
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
July 31 2012 06:19 GMT
#913
I exacerbated wrist RSI to a very bad point using grid setup. My left wrist took me out of playing SC2 for several months. While the mouse hand is often an issue, taking care of the left is great. I was able to return to playing SC2 regularly after the invention of DarkGrid, and TheCore goes far beyond DarkGrid. So maybe it won't let your right wrist play longer, but it sure did let me play longer.

Interesting thought tho, ZenithM. Good point.
bgalang92
Profile Joined February 2011
United States155 Posts
July 31 2012 07:37 GMT
#914
I figured this might good for other newcomers to see, I made a video of myself playing a short game with theCore (do note however that mine is missing some of the latest updates, but they're very minor).



In the description I have a link to a replay. Jak and Foxy hopefully this helps.
FoxyMayhem
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
624 Posts
July 31 2012 09:40 GMT
#915
Ideally, what we need is a side-by-side of gameplay and keyboard, one player using standard and one player using TheCore. Showing them performing roughly similar actions (like lategame army control and macro). That way we can point and say, "see how much more you can do with less".

This is really helpful man.
Czarnodziej
Profile Joined January 2011
Poland624 Posts
July 31 2012 11:37 GMT
#916
On July 31 2012 03:16 JaKaTaK wrote:
I'm thinking about making the cancel and idle worker keys more accessible.

How do you guys feel about
6 for cancel (hit it with the ring finger, should feel similar to the old hitting escape and easier than F8) and
= or Backspace for idle worker?

EDIT: 7 for cancel and ` for idle worker for lefties


6 for cancel? HELL NO, F8 is perfect as it is atm.

Backspace for idle worker? Cool
dotDash
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden142 Posts
July 31 2012 13:29 GMT
#917
I agree with all above about the F8 for cancel. Its perfect as it is!

Cheers
Dan
Feel free to tune in to my stream! Highmaster T aiming for GM with commentary! http://video.gamecreds.com/1sy1sfohwo31n/channel/dotDash-T-going-for-GM
JaKaTaKSc2
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States2787 Posts
July 31 2012 15:38 GMT
#918
Time for a poll then


Poll: What key do you think is better for the cancel function?

F8 (F4 for leftys) (17)
 
94%

7 (6 for leftys) (1)
 
6%

18 total votes

Your vote: What key do you think is better for the cancel function?

(Vote): F8 (F4 for leftys)
(Vote): 7 (6 for leftys)



Poll: What key do you think is better for the idle worker function?

Backspace (Tilde or Grave `~ for lefties) (7)
 
54%

F9 (F1 for lefties) (6)
 
46%

13 total votes

Your vote: What key do you think is better for the idle worker function?

(Vote): F9 (F1 for lefties)
(Vote): Backspace (Tilde or Grave `~ for lefties)

Commentatorhttps://www.youtube.com/JaKaTaKtv
Iryerris
Profile Joined February 2012
Netherlands17 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-31 17:59:27
July 31 2012 17:46 GMT
#919
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 31 2012 18:40 FoxyMayhem wrote:
Ideally, what we need is a side-by-side of gameplay and keyboard, one player using standard and one player using TheCore. Showing them performing roughly similar actions (like lategame army control and macro). That way we can point and say, "see how much more you can do with less".

This is really helpful man.


I'll try and do this on my stream this week (before I go off on holiday)

Hope Twitch.tv VoDs will be good enough, if youtube is preferable then I'll have to figure out how that exactly works.
]

Herp, nevermind, didn't read correctly. not sure how I would do this t.t

I can provide gameplay with keyboard cam at the same time if that's something you're looking for though.

____

Either way,the cancel and idle worker change is interesting. Having thought about it a little, while 6 is a similar movement to escape I think it can easily be missed because there's a lot of keys surrounding it. F8 has the advantage of being directly above O for the middle finger. So the only displacement would be vertical, making it easier to return to the homekeys.

for Idle worker I would prefer = as it would be statisticly better then F9. F9 is also harder to hit while pressing Ctrl to select all Idle workers. I feel backspace is a bit too much of a stretch, so I'm not sure.
Hancho
Profile Joined July 2012
Germany89 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-31 18:34:12
July 31 2012 18:06 GMT
#920
Hi
i created this images because i think their are better than a table for the start (Frequently Asked Questions: 4. Which keys do I press with which fingers?).
The qualitiy is not the best maybe you can do it better with your original keyboard image.
Maybe you can mark the standard position JIOP.
It helps me and i hope others too

[image loading]
[image loading]
[image loading]

gl hf
Prev 1 44 45 46 47 48 432 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 49m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Creator 107
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 4180
Bisu 2689
Shuttle 1139
EffOrt 1086
Mini 540
Hyuk 528
Larva 350
Soulkey 334
PianO 239
Soma 228
[ Show more ]
Snow 226
Mind 178
ToSsGirL 161
Pusan 106
Rush 104
Barracks 80
Sharp 72
Hyun 68
Sea.KH 59
JYJ49
Aegong 30
Movie 24
Trikslyr24
soO 23
HiyA 18
Sacsri 18
yabsab 17
GoRush 16
JulyZerg 14
IntoTheRainbow 13
Free 13
Yoon 12
Terrorterran 11
Bale 10
ivOry 3
Dota 2
Gorgc10712
qojqva2732
syndereN276
XcaliburYe266
League of Legends
singsing2339
Dendi1334
Counter-Strike
fl0m825
flusha408
kRYSTAL_104
Other Games
tarik_tv32300
gofns24675
B2W.Neo1278
hiko858
FrodaN751
DeMusliM441
Lowko387
crisheroes340
ArmadaUGS126
QueenE60
Rex25
KnowMe9
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick39088
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 13
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 24
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis6154
• TFBlade987
Upcoming Events
WardiTV European League
49m
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
8h 49m
The PondCast
18h 49m
WardiTV European League
20h 49m
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d
Replay Cast
1d 8h
RSL Revival
1d 18h
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
FEL
4 days
CSO Cup
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.