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Belgium2048 Posts
Someone has the link of the twitchtv restream please ?
Thanks
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On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then?
Benefits of not walling off for terran
1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up.
2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged.
3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way.
4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location.
Downsides
1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
ENTOMBED VALLEY
Neither player has played this map in the GSL
Hard to do stats on a map that has only had 4 games have been played on this map ever. We can at least see their head-to-head score though. TOP is 5-2, only losing on TDA and Crossfire
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On January 02 2012 19:57 Inflicted_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then? If the Zerg decides to run in while you're going for a economic/safer build, then they lose their map control and have to sacrifice larvae for more Zerglings.
I expected a serious answer, to be honest.
On January 02 2012 19:58 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 19:55 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:52 figq wrote:
About the no-wall thing, it must be some korean meta TvZ - noticed Bomber does it often on stream. No idea why exactly. They're simply being cocky or lazy. As a Terran player, I'm glad MKP got punished hard for it. You deserve to lose that badly when you refuse to execute the basics of your race. I doubt it. My guess is they do it against zergs they know so well, they expect no early run-by, and when their build actually makes use of the saved few seconds from building closer to the minerals.
I hope it's not their reason, because if they consider saving 5-10 minerals is better than denying scouting and being safe from any early agression, that's really sad.
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Anyone have link to a dual-castor stream? Much more enjoyable, can't watch the current stream although I'm a huge fan. Would enjoy a PM or Link if possible to a solid restream.
PS. Paid for GOMTV past 1.5 years or so
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37025 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:00 Seeker wrote: TOP vs  LosirA on Entombed Valley TOP at bottom left LosirA at top left First 5 minutesBoth players open standard LosirA scouts TOP TOP goes no gas dual CC Right after CC TOP grabs both gas TOP now scouts LosirA LosirA pops out lings and chases away TOP's scv TOP building a bunker at the top of his ramp for defense LosirA runs 4 lings into TOP's base, meets marines and escapes with 1 ling TOP moves out with his marines to see if he can put on some sort of pressure
5 - 10 minutes
TOP grabs a 3rd CC
LosirA grabbing both his gas in his main now
LosirA spreading creep (here we go again.....)
TOP increasing his # of raxes
LosirA getting speed now
TOP moves out with hellions to see if he can pressure LosirA
TOP kills creep tumors with his hellions
LosirA sends an overlord in to scout TOP
TOP doing sick micro against LosirA's queens
TOP gets one of LosirA's queen and is now killing more creep tumors
TOP getting reactor starport/tech lab factory
LosirA destroying his rocks to grab his 3rd
TOP messes up and loses all his hellions to LosirA's lings
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:02 DivinitySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then? Benefits of not walling off for terran 1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up. 2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged. 3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way. 4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location. Downsides 1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside. Um. 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. 3 is plain stupid.
Wall offs are good, period.
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Losira's creep is downright sexy
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On January 02 2012 20:04 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:02 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then? Benefits of not walling off for terran 1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up. 2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged. 3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way. 4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location. Downsides 1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside. Um. 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. 3 is plain stupid. Wall offs are good, period.
The only drawback I can think off is that it might leave you supplyblocked at a very bad time if your enemy busts your wall.
Still beats lings in the mineral line 24/7 though
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On January 02 2012 20:04 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:02 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then? Benefits of not walling off for terran 1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up. 2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged. 3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way. 4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location. Downsides 1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside. Um. 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. 3 is plain stupid. Wall offs are good, period.
All those 4 arguments are terribad lol. Just wall off, it's 10x better that way...
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On January 02 2012 20:02 DivinitySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then? Benefits of not walling off for terran 1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up. 2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged. 3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way. 4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location. Downsides 1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside.
You're trolling us... right?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:05 Lann555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:04 Plexa wrote:On January 02 2012 20:02 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then? Benefits of not walling off for terran 1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up. 2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged. 3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way. 4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location. Downsides 1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside. Um. 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. 3 is plain stupid. Wall offs are good, period. The only drawback I can think off is that it might leave you supplyblocked at a very bad time if your enemy busts your wall. Still beats lings in the mineral line 24/7 though Better that banelings hit your wall than your units, tbh. Supplyblocked > No units to defend.
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Australia18228 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:04 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:02 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then? Benefits of not walling off for terran 1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up. 2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged. 3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way. 4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location. Downsides 1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside. Um. 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. 3 is plain stupid. Wall offs are good, period.
That's apart of the mindgames though. Wall offs are good, so Zergs expect Terrans to wall-off. When they don't and you know they're a high-calibre player, you would assume that they'll luring you to go up the ramp, pretty much forcing the Zerg to take a risk that can pay-off or lose a chunk of their army.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37025 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:04 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:00 Seeker wrote: TOP vs LosirA on Entombed Valley TOP at bottom left LosirA at top left First 5 minutesBoth players open standard LosirA scouts TOP TOP goes no gas dual CC Right after CC TOP grabs both gas TOP now scouts LosirA LosirA pops out lings and chases away TOP's scv TOP building a bunker at the top of his ramp for defense LosirA runs 4 lings into TOP's base, meets marines and escapes with 1 ling TOP moves out with his marines to see if he can put on some sort of pressure 5 - 10 minutesTOP grabs a 3rd CC LosirA grabbing both his gas in his main now LosirA spreading creep (here we go again.....) TOP increasing his # of raxes LosirA getting speed now TOP moves out with hellions to see if he can pressure LosirA TOP kills creep tumors with his hellions LosirA sends an overlord in to scout TOP TOP doing sick micro against LosirA's queens TOP gets one of LosirA's queen and is now killing more creep tumors TOP getting reactor starport/tech lab factory LosirA destroying his rocks to grab his 3rd TOP messes up and loses all his hellions to LosirA's lings
10 - 15 minutes
TOP decides to grab the watch tower
TOP meets LosirA's lings, picks up his marines and backs off
LosirA clears out the 2 marines that were grabbing the watch tower
LosirA now getting banes
LosirA spreading creep like such a baws...... LIKE A BOSS!!!
TOP getting a bigger army
TOP trying to stop creep spread but is failing hard
LosirA now with mutas
TOP is well defended but TOP is going to have to play defensive for the time being
TOP walls off the ramp of his 3rd
TOP drops LosirA's 4th and forces a cancel
LosirA clears off the drop with lings/mutas
TOP getting more and more creep tumors (damn...... those scans that could've been mules.....)
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Benefits of not walling off for terran
1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up.
2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged.
3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way.
4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location.
Downsides
1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside.
By the way you forgot to mention he might just kill everything in your base in the downsides.
So essentially,
Upsides: Negligible.
Downsides: You might just lose the game?
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Wolf wake up plz. Your voice made me soo sleepy today!
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yea come on, you dont wall off you lose. i learned that as i climbed my way through bronze league
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lol so they disabled horizontal spawn on this map....
Doesn't matter too much IMO, it is still a pretty big map.
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On January 02 2012 20:06 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:02 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then? Benefits of not walling off for terran 1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up. 2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged. 3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way. 4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location. Downsides 1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside. You're trolling us... right?
You honestly think a big chunk of top terrans don't wall off just for aesthetic reasons? Do you even play terran? And if so at what level? Do you know the subtleties terran gameplay?
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On January 02 2012 20:04 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2012 20:02 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:56 TheDwf wrote:On January 02 2012 19:55 DivinitySC2 wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 GreyKnight wrote:On January 02 2012 19:50 Moskau wrote:
This is why I never understood why people liked watching MKP play, he is the most strategically inept player in the sc2 pro scene. It's really painful to watch, now that people are actually figuring out the game hes being made to look like braindead player he is. Yeah I always hated his playstyle and see him as someone who will fade into obscurity once people just get better. Strategically inept? He modernized many of the strongest Terran openers and strategies. 1 rax expand, 1-1-1, bio splitting, no wall off(yes this is a real strategy with more positives than negatives), Oh, really? Tell us more about the positive aspects, then? Benefits of not walling off for terran 1. Each time an army moves out the depot must be lowered (assuming it is closed at all times) This is approximately a split second to one second delay, in regards to early game pushes each second matters, and throughout the game this will add up. 2. We are in code S territory, these players have the ability to hold any early game attacks with just scvs/tier 1 units, this means that under the assumption that the zerg moves his units inside the main, he will lose his army to the defender (this is a big deal). If there was a wall off this would be discouraged. 3. Psychological effect on opponent, because a wall-off is so expected not seeing one may affect your opponents play in a negative way. 4. Saved mineral time from moving scv's to a farther location. Downsides 1. Under the rare scenario that your army is soooo far away from your ramp that a zergling can run up and scout every single building, than this is a downside. Um. 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. 3 is plain stupid. Wall offs are good, period.
In TvZ I dont understand not walling off, in TvT it has its good parts and its bad parts and in TvP its in general pretty bad to do.
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EPT
