On July 02 2013 19:22 monkybone wrote: there is actually a very easy way to fix hellbat drops in HotS. Make the damage output of hellbats small enough to 3 shot scvs, but large enough to 2 shot drones and probes. So 21-22 damage vs light. Then make the BFH upgrade affect hellbats too.
This way hellbat drops remain effective in TvP and TvZ (where they are not broken), and make TvT less volitile. It makes hellbat drops an even more direct tech route by requiring +1 attack or the BFH upgrade.
That's a pretty big nerf, Hellbat would do 18+4 against light. Currently they do 18+12 against light.
A zealot would not die in 5 shots but 7, marines would not die in 2 shots but 3 (might be desirable), hellions don't die in 3 but 5 shots, hellbats not in 5 but 7, hydra wouldn't die in 5 but 7.
But the BFH upgrade will make the hellbat just as effective against zealots, marines, hellions and hydras. The point is to make it more of a commitment to go for hellbat drop in the early game.
BFH upgrade still requires a factory + tech lab on it and 150/150, its a really big investment especially in TvP. In other words a significant nerf to terran overall.
Everyone likes to talk about these upgrades like they're some sort of massive cost. 150/150 is NOTHING late game, it is simply a choice. Even early game if you're going to have them in your army consistently throughout the whole game 150/150 is nothing also. That being said I don't know what the proper change is to hellbat, but really there is only one game that I saw that they looked OP, but that was innovation playing and I don't think it was the hellbat that was OP. My point is, that an upgrade is always worth it as long as you're using it. A lot of zergs don't use overlord speed because of its upgrade cost, but for what an overlord can do with speed alone the upgrade is definitely worth it, but might not be the biggest priority.
150/150 isn't the whole story, the fact that you either need a secondary factory or have to sacrifice a ton of production time is arguably an even bigger deal.
It's like when people wonder why terrans won't make a single raven to clear creep against zerg? It's because switching addons is a big hassle and you lose valuable production time that could be spent on making the actual units you urgently need, medivacs and vikings. The 150/150 cost for blueflame is just icing on the cake that ensures the unit no longer has a place in builds that don't already incorporate factories with tech labs.
Also hellbats as bio support peak in the early-midgame, mostly because you won't be getting mech upgrades and eventually your hellbats will be 0-0 vs 3-3. This makes all sorts of lategame hellbat additions with double factories kinda moot.
hellbats as support peak in the lategame in TvP actually. Early game you don't bother with them because an armory is just too expensive and your factory is busy making reactors for other buildings anyway. Also protoss often plays a stalker/colossus combination early on with minimal zealots where hellbats suck. Lategame though protoss is forced to go into zealot/ht as well since colossi in high numbers just get countered. At this point hellbats really start to shine, especially since there will be lots of zealots, your factory is idle anyway (reactored factory is equal in money spending to two reactored barracks) and the massive aoe around makes marines a bit week. Yes your hellbats will probably just be 0-2 instead of 3-3 marines but still hellbats are good at that point. Early on you also sacrifice too much mobility by going hellbats, you can't kite effectively. Later on kiting get's practically too hard anyway and ghosts/vikings remove that ability from your army anyway. Many terrans alternate ship attack with ship/mech armor now so your hellbats will get a couple upgrades anyway, besides their high base damage makes them do fine without upgrades anyway.
I like that this post is now almost a month old, Hellbat drops have become standard in every terran matchup and nothing has changed. The approach Blizzard is taking is fine theoretically, but I think the evidence is in broz.
How about limiting the speed boost on medivacs to a certain payload (Marauders, Marines, SCV's, Mines...) . The problem is not the hellbats themselves but the limited reaction time you have to defend against them. They require close to no micro and get in your face to quickly. This would be logical, an overloaded medivac (Read full of heavy (read weighty) units) wouldn't be able to use its boosters thus reducing the mobility of the hellbats and giving the opponent more time to micro his harvesters out of the mineral line. They would become less viable as harass units while still being good in all other aspects of the game.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
On July 03 2013 12:56 MisoSoup wrote: How about limiting the speed boost on medivacs to a certain payload (Marauders, Marines, SCV's, Mines...) . The problem is not the hellbats themselves but the limited reaction time you have to defend against them. They require close to no micro and get in your face to quickly. This would be logical, an overloaded medivac (Read full of heavy (read weighty) units) wouldn't be able to use its boosters thus reducing the mobility of the hellbats and giving the opponent more time to micro his harvesters out of the mineral line. They would become less viable as harass units while still being good in all other aspects of the game.
What I actually want from medivac: -now unloading time is delayed respect to the cargo size. (what I mean is that hellbats will have more delay after they are dropped from medivac. Remember BW reaver?)
-longer cooldown of booster.
I don't want to see insane micro marine drops disappearing from the scene.
On July 03 2013 09:39 ajxPurpleRain wrote: I like that this post is now almost a month old, Hellbat drops have become standard in every terran matchup and nothing has changed. The approach Blizzard is taking is fine theoretically, but I think the evidence is in broz.
I agree. It is actually kinda late to patch anything too much onto hellbat drop now. That's also why I wish blizzard would have acted faster and not this passive patching action. Pros spent time building upon what they have, the longer you take to patch something, the more things and builds you are gonna affect. I wish blizzard would have patched medivac speed boost into something like only able to activate when medivac health below x percent but any nerf to hellbat or medivac is kinda too much to the game right now
On July 03 2013 12:56 MisoSoup wrote: How about limiting the speed boost on medivacs to a certain payload (Marauders, Marines, SCV's, Mines...) . The problem is not the hellbats themselves but the limited reaction time you have to defend against them. They require close to no micro and get in your face to quickly. This would be logical, an overloaded medivac (Read full of heavy (read weighty) units) wouldn't be able to use its boosters thus reducing the mobility of the hellbats and giving the opponent more time to micro his harvesters out of the mineral line. They would become less viable as harass units while still being good in all other aspects of the game.
1. Hellbats are just the cheapest - by a mile - harrassment unit to use, but other units would be just as devastating. 2. Such "specialized solutions" are a TERRIBLE way to balance the game. The "vs bio" bonus damage on Spore Crawlers was already bad.
On July 03 2013 12:56 MisoSoup wrote: How about limiting the speed boost on medivacs to a certain payload (Marauders, Marines, SCV's, Mines...) . The problem is not the hellbats themselves but the limited reaction time you have to defend against them. They require close to no micro and get in your face to quickly. This would be logical, an overloaded medivac (Read full of heavy (read weighty) units) wouldn't be able to use its boosters thus reducing the mobility of the hellbats and giving the opponent more time to micro his harvesters out of the mineral line. They would become less viable as harass units while still being good in all other aspects of the game.
1. Hellbats are just the cheapest - by a mile - harrassment unit to use, but other units would be just as devastating. 2. Such "specialized solutions" are a TERRIBLE way to balance the game. The "vs bio" bonus damage on Spore Crawlers was already bad.
The super mobility is the deciding factor.
I agree with number 1. Hellbats are cheap. The terran has almost no drawback to using them. As they are now, they require close to no micro, they force the opponent to stop mining, they get in your mineral line way too fast and the AOE damage is to high for that ridiculous investment. They can quickly determine the outcome of any game (As they are useful in all match ups).
I disagree with number 2. People are complaining that any other nerf to hellbats would either negate their usefulness to a mech army. Changing the damage output would have consequences to every matchup etc. I personally hate the unit. But I'm trying to make a balanced choice. Once more, the problem is not the unit itself but its effect as a harassment unit.
The super mobility is a deciding factor. For any other bio unit.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
They would also be utterly useless with their slow speed, but I guess that makes them "balanced" in the eyes of some people.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
And if they lose their bio tag and become armoured they lose some ability to tank and would make mech in TvP even less viable due to immortals once again being the counter to everything mech. The problem at hand is that hellbats are too good in the early-mid game because they are able to drop in and cause massive damage. I don't see how changing them to armoured and removing their ability to be healed changes the problem with the drop. At most it gives a very minor nerf because now the medivac doesn't heal them so they have to be slightly more careful when engaging the opposing army during the drop.
Hellbats were designed for a specific purpose: to make mech better. Their problem at the moment is that they are too good as harrassment units. This needs to be nerfed, but nerfed in such a way as to not really affect their role as a tank in a mech army, particularly in TvP. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
They would also be utterly useless with their slow speed, but I guess that makes them "balanced" in the eyes of some people.
Their speed isn't a problem when they have marauder and marine support.
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
And if they lose their bio tag and become armoured they lose some ability to tank and would make mech in TvP even less viable due to immortals once again being the counter to everything mech. The problem at hand is that hellbats are too good in the early-mid game because they are able to drop in and cause massive damage. I don't see how changing them to armoured and removing their ability to be healed changes the problem with the drop. At most it gives a very minor nerf because now the medivac doesn't heal them so they have to be slightly more careful when engaging the opposing army during the drop.
Hellbats were designed for a specific purpose: to make mech better. Their problem at the moment is that they are too good as harrassment units. This needs to be nerfed, but nerfed in such a way as to not really affect their role as a tank in a mech army, particularly in TvP. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Mech will not be viable in TvP for as long as bio is as amazing as it is. Right now hellbats are used as a supplement to the bio army.
I would like the bio tag to remain (even though it is nonsensical, it makes sense in term of gameplay)
My favourite option so far is to reduce damage to 18 + 4 vs light, and with BFH it becomes 18 + 12 vs light (the same as right now)
This way, unupgraded hellbats would 3-shot marines and SCVs in the beginning of the game, but would still 2-shot drones and probes, thus keeping hellbat drops as viable openers in TvP and TvZ.
On July 03 2013 14:20 zmsFlood wrote: Please god remove the bio tag!!!
which god? DK? lol I'm pretty sure somebody tested and still turned out hellbat drops are op. (just can't find that video...) dmg nerf was necessary (not sure removing all + light was a good choice though)
On July 03 2013 09:05 IamHobbyless wrote: Remove the Bio tag and i am happy
I would love this, because then they'd actually be useful for mech late game again since mass immortals destroys Hellbats so hard.
It's why I prefer to use blue flame hellions instead late game as all the archons just eat through them otherwise.
You mean you want both suggested hellbat nerf (BFH) AND no-bio tag? That might be too much? I actually saw someone (and myself) suggest that hellbat comes purely mechanical but when transformation servo upgrade research is done, it will get bio tag again. That will give terran more option (so archons would not kill them easily.)
On July 03 2013 08:23 EFermi wrote: If Blizzard make hellbats armored and go ahead with BFH containing the extra light damage would probably make the unit balanced
Waht? I don't want hellbats get extra damage from immortals! The good thing about being light in PvT is that hellbat can be a meat shield for other mechs which are all armored!
And my poor banelings will cry hard.
If they were armored then Stalkers and Marauders would be a lot more effective against them. Right now they basically have no weaknesses in PvT and TvT.
And if they lose their bio tag and become armoured they lose some ability to tank and would make mech in TvP even less viable due to immortals once again being the counter to everything mech. The problem at hand is that hellbats are too good in the early-mid game because they are able to drop in and cause massive damage. I don't see how changing them to armoured and removing their ability to be healed changes the problem with the drop. At most it gives a very minor nerf because now the medivac doesn't heal them so they have to be slightly more careful when engaging the opposing army during the drop.
Hellbats were designed for a specific purpose: to make mech better. Their problem at the moment is that they are too good as harrassment units. This needs to be nerfed, but nerfed in such a way as to not really affect their role as a tank in a mech army, particularly in TvP. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
No they werent, you give wrong facts They were designed for lategame mass zealots
Easiest is solution is lower hellbat damage against scvs/probes/drones only.(light, smight)... pretty sure Blizz did this will blue flame hellions Or have a lost cost upgrade in the armory which allows hellions to become hellbats.... this would slow down the speed which hellbat drops arrive, which would allow some pressure from opponents instead of them sitting in base for drop
I saw the game where InnO suicided his medievacs + hellbats against sOs and certain zergs and eventhough I'm a big terran fan, I thought it was stupid... (oracles are stupid too, worst than banshees)
EPT
