EPTHongUnPrime 3 Nexus 2 Base [D] - Page 4
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DashedHopes
Canada414 Posts
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sc2pal
Poland624 Posts
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JellowLight
60 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
On November 11 2011 08:46 Oreo7 wrote: I'm pretty sure he built carriers etc at mlg in big stage matches. Although he may have been screwing around then too :o I'm pretty sure Hongun doesn't take this game that seriously when it comes to build orders, and just does whatever he feels like in every game (he is going for 2 base Carriers on his stream vs Terran right now...). He is really fun to watch and his stream has some of the best music. And if he losses, he just masses Blink Stalkers for the next game. So I wouldn't take this build too seriously. | ||
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OriginalBeast
United States709 Posts
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On November 11 2011 08:33 Whiplash wrote: Doesn't hongun always mess around on his stream and do crazy builds like mass carrier just because he can? I don't see getting a macro nexus viable because by the time you get 2 bases of probes saturated using the chrono boost from the nexuses the extra one hasn't really paid for its self. This. Getting a macro hatch worth it because u do not need the production buildings, getting a macro orbital worth it for the eco boost, is a investment. A macro Nexus DEMANDS more eco, it may give some chronos but you still need to paid for that more production, an eco you do not have, it is not worth it. Hongun was just messing around because is a beast. | ||
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Alem
United States12 Posts
On December 08 2011 00:17 DashedHopes wrote: I have been watching Hongun do more of this he does it quite often know if you watch his stream this is definitely not him fooling around Haha even though he is on Na server I've seen him do this at least 10 times, with a decent win rate. While I'm certainly not going to argue that it's arbitrarily good it does have its merits. First off, it's only a 300 mineral investment counting the supply. How many times have you lost 3 zealots running away? Second, he doesn't really use it for probes. I think he does it because it's fun, and makes his viewers happy, and allows him to still beat high GM NA players. I've seen him win ridiculously lopsided battles when 2/2/2 and 3/3/3 kick in. Still, there's always a huge timing window in this build where a roach/ling allin would invariably crush it. | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On December 08 2011 05:50 Alem wrote: I've seen him do this at least 10 times, with a decent win rate. While I'm certainly not going to argue that it's arbitrarily good it does have its merits. First off, it's only a 300 mineral investment counting the supply. How many times have you lost 3 zealots running away? Second, he doesn't really use it for probes. I think he does it because it's fun, and makes his viewers happy, and allows him to still beat high GM NA players. I've seen him win ridiculously lopsided battles when 2/2/2 and 3/3/3 kick in. Still, there's always a huge timing window in this build where a roach/ling allin would invariably crush it. That's what I was thinking...seems really weak to aggressive zergs. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
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TylerDurden275
Canada86 Posts
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clownzim
Brazil267 Posts
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Elefes
Russian Federation164 Posts
Have no idea how to survive till 10+ minutes with that o_O | ||
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Raggamuffinoo
United Kingdom117 Posts
Whether this is a viable 1v1 build, I'm unsure... an interesting topic nonetheless. | ||
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Feos
Germany71 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/hongun/b/303884694 and sorry but i cant understand why you all are arguing about if the nexus is paying off. i just estimated it: a nexus produces 60/17 =~ 3,5 probes per minute his first nexus gets down @3:00 and is operational @4:30 2nd nexus gets down @4:30 and is operational @6:00 so if t is measured in minutes: #Probes = 3.5 x t + 6 for t<4.5 #Probes = 3.5 x 4.5 + 7 x t + 6 = 7 x t + 21,75 for 4.5 < t < 6 #Probes = 7 x 1.5 + 10.5 x t + 21,75 = 10.5 x t + 32.25 for t>6 i know i totally neglected indices and chronoboost. for simplicitys sake lets assume he chrono boostet 2 or 3 times which might add 2 probes or so. i left them out because he scoutet and so on. its just an estimate ^^ so @6 min he should have ~32 probes in total mining and 3 nexus operational. from this topic i will take the income rate per probe: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055#13 if there are <2 probes per mineral patch: Average Income Per harvester per minute: 41.7 if there are more than 2 but not more than 3 probes per mineral patch: Average Income Per harvester per minute: 33.2 for 2 bases we need 48 harvester on minerals for a full saturation (3 harvester per patch) and 12 harvester for our 6 gases: so 60 harvester in total (who would have guessed that??? ^^). if we get all 4 gases before we get more than 2 harvester per mineral patch, then we can get 48 probes until we have to start putting 3 probes per patch. with only 2 nexuses we need 3.75 minutes to reach 48 probes (with the 2nd nexus finishing @4:30) so 8.25 Minutes and for 60 probes we would need ~10 minutes @6 minutes all 3 nexuses are finished and we have 32 probes. so we can get 16 more probes before putting 3 per minerals: 10.5 x t = 16 ---> 1.5 minutes this means @7:30 we have 48 probes and have to start putting 3 probes on each mineral patch before fully saturated, we can make 12 more probes: 10.5 x t = 12 ---> ~1,1 minutes so @8:36 we are fully saturated now i want to assume the cost and income are in multiples of t minutes so that its easier ^^ for each probe we have to pay 50 minerals we produce 3.5 probes per minute so that are 175 minerals per minute we have to pay until each mineral patch has 2 harvesters we get 41.7 minerals per minute. this means the probes produced in 1 minute result in an increase of our income of 3.5 x 41.7 = 145.95 minerals per minute for more than 2 but not more than 3 harvester per patch we have an increase of 116,2 minerals per minute our macro nexus was finished @6:00 so it produces 1.5 minutes probes before there are 3 harvester per patch: 145.95 x 1.5 =~ 218 minerals we can produce probes for another 1.1 minutes before reaching full saturation: 116.2 x 1.1 =~ 128 minerals so this results in an net gain of 218 + 128 = 346 minerals (only for this time that we needed to reach saturation!!). if we substract the cost of a pylon from the nexus we actually gain 46 minerals by putting down the nexus @4:30. well i have to add a few things: first of all i didnt sleep for about 2 days now so maybe tomorrow this looks like garbage to me ^^ but at the moment all makes sense. i had to think about the "gain". we would get those minerals anyway but with the additional nexus we got those earlier. i also neglected the cost for the probes in the end because we have to pay them anyway and after a minute or so harvesting it should be fine anyway. and we have to acknowledge that this earlier increase in income accumulates. so compared to the saturation timing with only 2 nexuses we will get effectively more minerals until we reached the 2 nexus timings. ok, i will have a look at this tomorrow. hopefully someone will understand my thought process ^^ btw if you watch the match you should notice that hongun ceases making probes between 8:30 and 9 minutes. he continues after the next nexus went down. if my thinking was correct i suspect that his build is not something like "dicking around" but rather a build he put some thought in it. i really just tried to justify the mineral costs. as it looks it really does pay off after only about 2 or 2.5 minutes. so we dont even have to investigate the effective gain in resources of chronoboost... its just free ^^ i hope this all still makes sense tomorrow ^^ | ||
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Carmine
United States263 Posts
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nixis
United States42 Posts
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Feos
Germany71 Posts
actually i just tried it on yabot just producing probes and pylons and the nexus at the intended time. and i am pretty happy that my numbers were confirmed ^^ with only 2 nexused i get 48 probes at about 8.5 minutes and 60 at 10.1 minutes. by adding the 3rd nexus @4:30 i reached 48 probes at 7.5 minutes and 60 at 8.7 minutes. that makes a difference of 1.4 minutes i tried to get gas at around the same time and to keep the saturation balanced between 2 bases (taldarim btw). i produced for 11 minutes to make sure i would fully saturate in any case. which means in the end both builds have reached the same income. so the total number of mined minerals tells me how much the build would gain in resources. and the 3 nexus build gets 295 more minerals. and since we can see the time difference of the saturation we know that we get those minerals faster. but i have a difference in gas of about 60.... maybe i was just a bit sloppy ^^ so yabot confirmed that the nexus pays for itself  | ||
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DashedHopes
Canada414 Posts
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DashedHopes
Canada414 Posts
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Feos
Germany71 Posts
the build exploits the metagame as the zerg wont attack you and you will get away witz it. with this advantage you can do whatever you want :< | ||
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