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On September 13 2010 02:23 Zealotdriver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 22:45 Keyser wrote:
If the mosque/community center was actually at Ground Zero they may have had a legit case, if only because it's inapproriate to raise a building to worship the very same god whose name thousands of people got killed in right where they died. It would be like turning Auschwitz into a neo-nazi clubhouse. But it isn't. As others have already said, it is just in the vicinity of Ground Zero.
Now, I am the first to stray away from political correctness and say that islam is garbage we'd be better off without(other religions as well, but todays Islam is actually particularly bad for a variety of reasons), but there is freedom of religion for a reason, and in this particular case the good arguments have been tossed aside in favor of thinly veiled racism. Essentially what is going on here is that a lot of people don't see the difference between extremist muslims and regular muslims.
Of course, while much of this is ignorance and western propaganda, much of the fault here lies with prominent extremist muslims who are doing an even better job than Bush ever did at portraying every muslim as part of his extremist movement, as well as regular muslim groupings who so often fail to distance themselves from extreme acts. God fucking dammit, another trash poster came in without reading the thread and spouted this ignorant fucking bullshit again. Your analogy: Nazis : Neo-Nazis :: Al Queda : Imam Rauf. Like I said before, it's a god damn miracle that morons like you can tie your own shoes.
I tie my shoes just fine. As a matter of fact, I was able to tie them so well that I am studying international relations at one of the best universities in the world. This is a field I probably have a much more thought out opinion on than you, so you should try to understand what it is that I write before you lash out in anger.
I am not sure how to get something like this across here. While you have read the text you bolded, you have not understood it. Sometimes I forget that I am on a message board. I have never compared neo nazis to nazis or Al Qaida to Imam Rauf. I'll try to explain it to you.
Al Qaida and Imam Rauf are not the same, but they do have something in common, which is the religion of Islam. Similarly, neo-nazis and nazis have a hatred for jews inherent in the nazi ideology in common. It is fair to say that 9/11 was carried out in the name of Allah, and that the executions at Auschwitz were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology. Now, the problem with Imam Rauf raising a mosque at the 9/11 site(which is not the case as I said earlier, but if we pretend that it was for the sake of argument), he is raising a monument to Allah, the very same figure whose name the killings were carried out in. Not liking that has nothing to do with ignorance or racism, because I am not talking about people or groups, I am talking about the religion itself.
This can reasonably be compared to neo nazis building a clubhouse in Auschwitz, because the killings at the concentration camp were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology, while neo-nazi's turning it into their clubhouse would celebrate the very same ideology right where they died. Again I am not talking about people, I am talking about the ideology itself.
Of course, I think you would pressed hard to find anyone who thinks about this like I do in this thread, and the people fighting against the mosque certainly don't. They are just racist bigots, even if the end result of their actions(should they succeed) is not bad(although the means by which they might reach that goal is uncomfortable and will have long-term consequences).
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Al Qaida and Imam Rauf are not the same, but they do have something in common, which is the religion of Islam. Similarly, neo-nazis and nazis have a hatred for jews inherent in the nazi ideology in common. It is fair to say that 9/11 was carried out in the name of Allah, and that the executions at Auschwitz were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology. Now, the problem with Imam Rauf raising a mosque at the 9/11 site(which is not the case as I said earlier, but if we pretend that it was for the sake of argument), he is raising a monument to Allah, the very same figure whose name the killings were carried out in. Not liking that has nothing to do with ignorance or racism, because I am not talking about people or groups, I am talking about the religion itself.
This can reasonably be compared to neo nazis building a clubhouse in Auschwitz, because the killings at the concentration camp were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology, while neo-nazi's turning it into their clubhouse would celebrate the very same ideology right where they died. Again I am not talking about people, I am talking about the ideology itself.
Of course, I think you would pressed hard to find anyone who thinks about this like I do in this thread, and the people fighting against the mosque certainly don't. They are just racist bigots, even if the end result of their actions(should they succeed) is not bad(although the means by which they might reach that goal is uncomfortable and will have long-term consequences).
Look, this is just flat out retarded because Nazi ideology is intrinsically bad, while Islam is not intrinsically bad.
And explicating on that further, the Auschwitchz memorial exists as a rejection of Nazi ideology and represents a societal departure from genocide. Ground Zero should represent a similar stance against extremist mentality. By disallowing the building of the Mosque, your implying that all Muslims are extremists. In reality, the Korah advocates no more extremist mentality then The Bible.
It is fair to say that 9/11 was carried out in the name of Allah
9/11 is was carried out for personal hatreds, prejudices, glory, and bias, and vindicated through Islam. Sociology 101.
I am studying international relations at one of the best universities in the world.
Oh, fantastic. I feel so much better knowing you might be a future diplomat.
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Keyser, I don't agree with that analogy. I find the comparison not reasonable. The eradication of Jews as an ideology of Nazi's does not compare to the worship of Allah. A closer analogy would be the liking to the killing of infidels, whatever way you put that, as interpreted by some Islam as a religious duty imposed by the Koran. The speculation on the true interpretation of the Koran is something that I do not wish to involve myself.
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On September 13 2010 05:21 Keyser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 02:23 Zealotdriver wrote:On September 12 2010 22:45 Keyser wrote:
If the mosque/community center was actually at Ground Zero they may have had a legit case, if only because it's inapproriate to raise a building to worship the very same god whose name thousands of people got killed in right where they died. It would be like turning Auschwitz into a neo-nazi clubhouse. But it isn't. As others have already said, it is just in the vicinity of Ground Zero.
Now, I am the first to stray away from political correctness and say that islam is garbage we'd be better off without(other religions as well, but todays Islam is actually particularly bad for a variety of reasons), but there is freedom of religion for a reason, and in this particular case the good arguments have been tossed aside in favor of thinly veiled racism. Essentially what is going on here is that a lot of people don't see the difference between extremist muslims and regular muslims.
Of course, while much of this is ignorance and western propaganda, much of the fault here lies with prominent extremist muslims who are doing an even better job than Bush ever did at portraying every muslim as part of his extremist movement, as well as regular muslim groupings who so often fail to distance themselves from extreme acts. God fucking dammit, another trash poster came in without reading the thread and spouted this ignorant fucking bullshit again. Your analogy: Nazis : Neo-Nazis :: Al Queda : Imam Rauf. Like I said before, it's a god damn miracle that morons like you can tie your own shoes. I tie my shoes just fine. As a matter of fact, I was able to tie them so well that I am studying international relations at one of the best universities in the world. This is a field I probably have a much more thought out opinion on than you, so you should try to understand what it is that I write before you lash out in anger. I am not sure how to get something like this across here. While you have read the text you bolded, you have not understood it. Sometimes I forget that I am on a message board. I have never compared neo nazis to nazis or Al Qaida to Imam Rauf. I'll try to explain it to you. Al Qaida and Imam Rauf are not the same, but they do have something in common, which is the religion of Islam. Similarly, neo-nazis and nazis have a hatred for jews inherent in the nazi ideology in common. It is fair to say that 9/11 was carried out in the name of Allah, and that the executions at Auschwitz were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology. Now, the problem with Imam Rauf raising a mosque at the 9/11 site(which is not the case as I said earlier, but if we pretend that it was for the sake of argument), he is raising a monument to Allah, the very same figure whose name the killings were carried out in. Not liking that has nothing to do with ignorance or racism, because I am not talking about people or groups, I am talking about the religion itself. This can reasonably be compared to neo nazis building a clubhouse in Auschwitz, because the killings at the concentration camp were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology, while neo-nazi's turning it into their clubhouse would celebrate the very same ideology right where they died. Again I am not talking about people, I am talking about the ideology itself. Of course, I think you would pressed hard to find anyone who thinks about this like I do in this thread, and the people fighting against the mosque certainly don't. They are just racist bigots, even if the end result of their actions(should they succeed) is not bad(although the means by which they might reach that goal is uncomfortable and will have long-term consequences).
I think i mightve already posted this once but i think ill have to say it again. Im certain that there were muslims working in the twin towers and those were killed by those extremist factions. So i think saying that al qaeda did this for religious reasons is like saying the nazis hunted jews for religious reasons. After all hitler was a devout christian, believing to do good in the name of god. I dont see how this is any different. Its an extremist faction that does not care about the lives of their 'own' people, should they stand in the way of their goals. So i dont see a reason why there shouldnt be a mosque (2 block away from ground zero mind you) built where it is planned to be built.
Hope anything i wrote there made sense, im not exactly in tip top form today.
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I hate how people talk about this being insensitive, when they are out there protesting the "mosque" on 9/11. If they were really sensitive, they'd have the respect to leave ground zero alone for the people there to mourn on 9/11. It's not disrespectful at all to have a "mosque" there. It's not a slap in the face. It's just people trying to use the issue to secure votes for the 2010 midterm election. It's pathetic really that this is an issue with all the other things currently going on in the world.
/rant.
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On September 13 2010 05:26 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Al Qaida and Imam Rauf are not the same, but they do have something in common, which is the religion of Islam. Similarly, neo-nazis and nazis have a hatred for jews inherent in the nazi ideology in common. It is fair to say that 9/11 was carried out in the name of Allah, and that the executions at Auschwitz were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology. Now, the problem with Imam Rauf raising a mosque at the 9/11 site(which is not the case as I said earlier, but if we pretend that it was for the sake of argument), he is raising a monument to Allah, the very same figure whose name the killings were carried out in. Not liking that has nothing to do with ignorance or racism, because I am not talking about people or groups, I am talking about the religion itself.
This can reasonably be compared to neo nazis building a clubhouse in Auschwitz, because the killings at the concentration camp were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology, while neo-nazi's turning it into their clubhouse would celebrate the very same ideology right where they died. Again I am not talking about people, I am talking about the ideology itself.
Of course, I think you would pressed hard to find anyone who thinks about this like I do in this thread, and the people fighting against the mosque certainly don't. They are just racist bigots, even if the end result of their actions(should they succeed) is not bad(although the means by which they might reach that goal is uncomfortable and will have long-term consequences).
Look, this is just flat out retarded because Nazi ideology is intrinsically bad, while Islam is not intrinsically bad. 9/11 is was carried out for personal hatreds, prejudices, glory, and bias, and vindicated through Islam. Sociology 101. Show nested quote +I am studying international relations at one of the best universities in the world. Oh, fantastic. I feel so much better knowing you might be a future diplomat.
Nothing is 'intrinsically good or bad'. These are just opinions. Your first statement about how Islam is not intrinsically bad, for example, is something I disagree with. I personally believe it is very bad, placing somewhere inbetween christianity and nazism. Even if it wasn't bad, it would not change the conclusion in my argument. This is something that is very difficult to convince people of, because most people have an irrational belief that an actions inherent "goodness or badness" changes everything. You will just have to try figuring that out for yourself.
I am not sure where you took your sociology 101, but there are a lot of complex reasons for why 9/11 happened. It is definately true that the underlying reasons were only partly motivated by religion, but that does not changing anything either. The people who carried out the act, the ones who were on the planes, THEY did it in the name of islam no matter what motivated the masterminds behind the plan.
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On September 13 2010 05:28 Badjas wrote:
Keyser, I don't agree with that analogy. I find the comparison not reasonable. The eradication of Jews as an ideology of Nazi's does not compare to the worship of Allah. A closer analogy would be the liking to the killing of infidels, whatever way you put that, as interpreted by some Islam as a religious duty imposed by the Koran. The speculation on the true interpretation of the Koran is something that I do not wish to involve myself.
Of course the two are different, but within the context of my argument the analogy holds. The entire point is that you don't celebrate/exercise/worship/praise the ideology/motivation/cause behind mass murder on the site of those murders. That is the only thing I am saying. I am not comparing the worship of Allah to following the nazi ideology.
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On September 13 2010 05:50 Keyser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 05:28 Badjas wrote:
Keyser, I don't agree with that analogy. I find the comparison not reasonable. The eradication of Jews as an ideology of Nazi's does not compare to the worship of Allah. A closer analogy would be the liking to the killing of infidels, whatever way you put that, as interpreted by some Islam as a religious duty imposed by the Koran. The speculation on the true interpretation of the Koran is something that I do not wish to involve myself. Of course the two are different, but within the context of my argument the analogy holds. The entire point is that you don't celebrate/exercise/worship/praise the ideology/motivation/cause behind mass murder on the site of those murders. That is the only thing I am saying. I am not comparing the worship of Allah to following the nazi ideology.
I agree. Can we take all the Catholic churches out of Oklahoma City too?
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On September 13 2010 05:37 ChinaRestaurant wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 05:21 Keyser wrote:On September 13 2010 02:23 Zealotdriver wrote:On September 12 2010 22:45 Keyser wrote:
If the mosque/community center was actually at Ground Zero they may have had a legit case, if only because it's inapproriate to raise a building to worship the very same god whose name thousands of people got killed in right where they died. It would be like turning Auschwitz into a neo-nazi clubhouse. But it isn't. As others have already said, it is just in the vicinity of Ground Zero.
Now, I am the first to stray away from political correctness and say that islam is garbage we'd be better off without(other religions as well, but todays Islam is actually particularly bad for a variety of reasons), but there is freedom of religion for a reason, and in this particular case the good arguments have been tossed aside in favor of thinly veiled racism. Essentially what is going on here is that a lot of people don't see the difference between extremist muslims and regular muslims.
Of course, while much of this is ignorance and western propaganda, much of the fault here lies with prominent extremist muslims who are doing an even better job than Bush ever did at portraying every muslim as part of his extremist movement, as well as regular muslim groupings who so often fail to distance themselves from extreme acts. God fucking dammit, another trash poster came in without reading the thread and spouted this ignorant fucking bullshit again. Your analogy: Nazis : Neo-Nazis :: Al Queda : Imam Rauf. Like I said before, it's a god damn miracle that morons like you can tie your own shoes. I tie my shoes just fine. As a matter of fact, I was able to tie them so well that I am studying international relations at one of the best universities in the world. This is a field I probably have a much more thought out opinion on than you, so you should try to understand what it is that I write before you lash out in anger. I am not sure how to get something like this across here. While you have read the text you bolded, you have not understood it. Sometimes I forget that I am on a message board. I have never compared neo nazis to nazis or Al Qaida to Imam Rauf. I'll try to explain it to you. Al Qaida and Imam Rauf are not the same, but they do have something in common, which is the religion of Islam. Similarly, neo-nazis and nazis have a hatred for jews inherent in the nazi ideology in common. It is fair to say that 9/11 was carried out in the name of Allah, and that the executions at Auschwitz were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology. Now, the problem with Imam Rauf raising a mosque at the 9/11 site(which is not the case as I said earlier, but if we pretend that it was for the sake of argument), he is raising a monument to Allah, the very same figure whose name the killings were carried out in. Not liking that has nothing to do with ignorance or racism, because I am not talking about people or groups, I am talking about the religion itself. This can reasonably be compared to neo nazis building a clubhouse in Auschwitz, because the killings at the concentration camp were carried out in the name of the nazi ideology, while neo-nazi's turning it into their clubhouse would celebrate the very same ideology right where they died. Again I am not talking about people, I am talking about the ideology itself. Of course, I think you would pressed hard to find anyone who thinks about this like I do in this thread, and the people fighting against the mosque certainly don't. They are just racist bigots, even if the end result of their actions(should they succeed) is not bad(although the means by which they might reach that goal is uncomfortable and will have long-term consequences). I think i mightve already posted this once but i think ill have to say it again. Im certain that there were muslims working in the twin towers and those were killed by those extremist factions. So i think saying that al qaeda did this for religious reasons is like saying the nazis hunted jews for religious reasons. After all hitler was a devout christian, believing to do good in the name of god. I dont see how this is any different. Its an extremist faction that does not care about the lives of their 'own' people, should they stand in the way of their goals. So i dont see a reason why there shouldnt be a mosque (2 block away from ground zero mind you) built where it is planned to be built. Hope anything i wrote there made sense, im not exactly in tip top form today.
There is a mistake here. You are twisting my words to make them familiar to you. I have not said Al Qaida did this for religious reasons, I have said that it was done in the name of Allah/Islam. There is a very significant difference. If you want I will explain it to you.
Again, as I have said, it is not about the different groupings, it is about the name in which the action was carried out. I understand that this concept is difficult to grasp.
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On September 13 2010 05:54 Alou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 05:50 Keyser wrote:On September 13 2010 05:28 Badjas wrote:
Keyser, I don't agree with that analogy. I find the comparison not reasonable. The eradication of Jews as an ideology of Nazi's does not compare to the worship of Allah. A closer analogy would be the liking to the killing of infidels, whatever way you put that, as interpreted by some Islam as a religious duty imposed by the Koran. The speculation on the true interpretation of the Koran is something that I do not wish to involve myself. Of course the two are different, but within the context of my argument the analogy holds. The entire point is that you don't celebrate/exercise/worship/praise the ideology/motivation/cause behind mass murder on the site of those murders. That is the only thing I am saying. I am not comparing the worship of Allah to following the nazi ideology. I agree. Can we take all the Catholic churches out of Oklahoma City too?
I assume you're being sarcastic, and that you are referring to some historical event that I can't pinpoint. Regardless of past events I stand by what I am saying. It is how I would like things to be, even if it isn't realistic, and even if the average bigot protesting the mosque does not understand the consequences of applying his own standards to himself.
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Well as i said im not in tip top form today. I mightve not understood everything exactly the way you meant it. My point was that i dont think anyone should reduce a religion with 1.6 billion members to a few thousand extremists.
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On September 13 2010 06:08 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
Well as i said im not in tip top form today. I mightve not understood everything exactly the way you meant it. My point was that i dont think anyone should reduce a religion with 1.6 billion members to a few thousand extremists.
I have done no such thing, even if I do believe the number of extremists(depending on what you define as extremist) is significantly higher than a few thousand. Suppose you have a pet, and I am a member of some animal protection group. I kill you and free your pet. Are every member of animal protection groups like me? Certainly not. I am the extremist, they are just regular people who like animals. Would it now be appropriate that they sang animal freedom songs on your tomb? If your parents told them to stop singing on your tomb, would they be calling them murderers too?
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I bet $100 that if a bunch of white people wanted to build a church at the same location, no one would be complaining at all.
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Nothing is 'intrinsically good or bad'. These are just opinions. Your first statement about how Islam is not intrinsically bad, for example, is something I disagree with. I personally believe it is very bad, placing somewhere inbetween christianity and nazism. Even if it wasn't bad, it would not change the conclusion in my argument. This is something that is very difficult to convince people of, because most people have an irrational belief that an actions inherent "goodness or badness" changes everything. You will just have to try figuring that out for yourself.
I mean "Socially accepted as intrinsically bad" ok?
I'm very fucking aware actions don't carry intrinsic weight. I hate it when people make semantical arguments like that.
And if you're point is "We shouldn't build the Mosque on Ground Zero because people think Islam is evil", then that is just a whole new subset of problems that need to be solved, and can only be solved by not caving into stupid crap like that.
I have done no such thing, even if I do believe the number of extremists(depending on what you define as extremist) is significantly higher than a few thousand. Suppose you have a pet, and I am a member of some animal protection group. I kill you and free your pet. Are every member of animal protection groups like me? Certainly not. I am the extremist, they are just regular people who like animals. Would it now be appropriate that they sang animal freedom songs on your tomb? If your parents told them to stop singing on your tomb, would they be calling them murderers too?
What is up with you and making inappropriate analogies? It has been Nine years since 9/11, and the most important thing to do if you want the nation and the world to heal from these wounds isn't to continue to cling on to old prejudices. If this was happening on 2001, I would be singing a different tune, but guess what? Its 2010.
Its important to realize that the people in the Middle East do not do this because they are defective people (which very few people, but a couple, think), and more commonly, they have a defective belief. That is simply not the case. 99.9% of insurgents and "terrorists" because so due to zero sustainable opportunities for there future, and a huge variety of social problems, and a natural human resentment for occupants of ones ancestral home. Religion does play a role, but only as a way these people can vindicate and feel conviction in there lifestyles and directives, not a cause in itself.
I am not sure where you took your sociology 101, but there are a lot of complex reasons for why 9/11 happened. It is definately true that the underlying reasons were only partly motivated by religion, but that does not changing anything either. The people who carried out the act, the ones who were on the planes, THEY did it in the name of islam no matter what motivated the masterminds behind the plan.
Not talking about the masterminds, that had a long and complex history behind it that is irrelevent and isn't really connected to religion, I'm talking about the actual Hijackers.
And for them, religion is just a tool to vindicate and rationalize basic selfish human desires.
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On September 13 2010 06:13 Keyser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:08 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
Well as i said im not in tip top form today. I mightve not understood everything exactly the way you meant it. My point was that i dont think anyone should reduce a religion with 1.6 billion members to a few thousand extremists. I have done no such thing, even if I do believe the number of extremists(depending on what you define as extremist) is significantly higher than a few thousand. Suppose you have a pet, and I am a member of some animal protection group. I kill you and free your pet. Are every member of animal protection groups like me? Certainly not. I am the extremist, they are just regular people who like animals. Would it now be appropriate that they sang animal freedom songs on your tomb? If your parents told them to stop singing on your tomb, would they be calling them murderers too?
You mean 2 block away from my tomb? Lets make it 10 is that far enough? Or 20? Its not only that its disrespectful of THEIR religion but also of THEIR losses. Like i said, im quite sure there were a lot of (innocent) muslims that lost their lives on 9/11. How exactly would you think they would react if a christian church was allowed to be built near ground zero but not a muslim mosque (or rather community center because thats what it is if im not mistaken). Thats not exactly what i call religious freedom.
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On September 13 2010 06:07 Keyser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 05:54 Alou wrote:On September 13 2010 05:50 Keyser wrote:On September 13 2010 05:28 Badjas wrote:
Keyser, I don't agree with that analogy. I find the comparison not reasonable. The eradication of Jews as an ideology of Nazi's does not compare to the worship of Allah. A closer analogy would be the liking to the killing of infidels, whatever way you put that, as interpreted by some Islam as a religious duty imposed by the Koran. The speculation on the true interpretation of the Koran is something that I do not wish to involve myself. Of course the two are different, but within the context of my argument the analogy holds. The entire point is that you don't celebrate/exercise/worship/praise the ideology/motivation/cause behind mass murder on the site of those murders. That is the only thing I am saying. I am not comparing the worship of Allah to following the nazi ideology. I agree. Can we take all the Catholic churches out of Oklahoma City too? I assume you're being sarcastic, and that you are referring to some historical event that I can't pinpoint. Regardless of past events I stand by what I am saying. It is how I would like things to be, even if it isn't realistic, and even if the average bigot protesting the mosque does not understand the consequences of applying his own standards to himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
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On September 13 2010 06:07 Keyser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 05:54 Alou wrote:On September 13 2010 05:50 Keyser wrote:On September 13 2010 05:28 Badjas wrote:
Keyser, I don't agree with that analogy. I find the comparison not reasonable. The eradication of Jews as an ideology of Nazi's does not compare to the worship of Allah. A closer analogy would be the liking to the killing of infidels, whatever way you put that, as interpreted by some Islam as a religious duty imposed by the Koran. The speculation on the true interpretation of the Koran is something that I do not wish to involve myself. Of course the two are different, but within the context of my argument the analogy holds. The entire point is that you don't celebrate/exercise/worship/praise the ideology/motivation/cause behind mass murder on the site of those murders. That is the only thing I am saying. I am not comparing the worship of Allah to following the nazi ideology. I agree. Can we take all the Catholic churches out of Oklahoma City too? I assume you're being sarcastic, and that you are referring to some historical event that I can't pinpoint. Regardless of past events I stand by what I am saying. It is how I would like things to be, even if it isn't realistic, and even if the average bigot protesting the mosque does not understand the consequences of applying his own standards to himself.
He's talking about the Oklahoma city bombings, so no, he's not being sarcastic. He is however wrong because Timothy McVeigh did not commit those bombings in the name of God.
However, excluding 9/11, almost all of the domestic terrorism in this country has been from people considering themselves devout "Christians" - most notoriously KKK members / white supremacists, but also people who blow up abortion clinics and such. However, just because they do terrible things in the name of God doesn't mean that normal members of that religion can't have religious centers near the place where some terrorist act happened.
Radical Islam has its counterpart here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity
Read up on some of the groups - some you'll already know but there are plenty more out there. There have actually been way more attacks than I knew of myself.
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On September 13 2010 06:16 Half wrote:Show nested quote +Nothing is 'intrinsically good or bad'. These are just opinions. Your first statement about how Islam is not intrinsically bad, for example, is something I disagree with. I personally believe it is very bad, placing somewhere inbetween christianity and nazism. Even if it wasn't bad, it would not change the conclusion in my argument. This is something that is very difficult to convince people of, because most people have an irrational belief that an actions inherent "goodness or badness" changes everything. You will just have to try figuring that out for yourself. I mean "Socially accepted as intrinsically bad" ok? I'm very fucking aware actions don't carry intrinsic weight. I hate it when people make semantical arguments like that. And if you're point is "We shouldn't build the Mosque on Ground Zero because people think Islam is evil", then that is just a whole new subset of problems that need to be solved, and can only be solved by not caving into stupid crap like that. Show nested quote +
I am not sure where you took your sociology 101, but there are a lot of complex reasons for why 9/11 happened. It is definately true that the underlying reasons were only partly motivated by religion, but that does not changing anything either. The people who carried out the act, the ones who were on the planes, THEY did it in the name of islam no matter what motivated the masterminds behind the plan.
Not talking about the masterminds, that had a long and complex history behind it that is irrelevent and isn't really connected to religion, I'm talking about the actual Hijackers. And for them, religion is just a tool to vindicate and rationalize basic selfish human desires.
In this case the semantic argument is important though, because you gave the intrinsic value weight where it shouldn't have any. Islam being 'intrinsically good'(I don't agree with this) does not change the fact that 9/11 was carried out in the name of Islam.
As for your second point, I couldn't care less about people who think Islam is evil. I would like you to read my last post in this thread where I make an example with an animal protection group.
As for your final point, their motivation is not interesting either. It was done in the name of Allah even if all they were thinking about were the 72 virgins waiting for them heaven. It is similar to an author dedicating his book to someone on the first page. It's about the message you send, and not about what is actually true.
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On September 13 2010 06:20 ChinaRestaurant wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:13 Keyser wrote:On September 13 2010 06:08 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
Well as i said im not in tip top form today. I mightve not understood everything exactly the way you meant it. My point was that i dont think anyone should reduce a religion with 1.6 billion members to a few thousand extremists. I have done no such thing, even if I do believe the number of extremists(depending on what you define as extremist) is significantly higher than a few thousand. Suppose you have a pet, and I am a member of some animal protection group. I kill you and free your pet. Are every member of animal protection groups like me? Certainly not. I am the extremist, they are just regular people who like animals. Would it now be appropriate that they sang animal freedom songs on your tomb? If your parents told them to stop singing on your tomb, would they be calling them murderers too? You mean 2 block away from my tomb? Lets make it 10 is that far enough? Or 20? Its not only that its disrespectful of THEIR religion but also of THEIR losses. Like i said, im quite sure there were a lot of (innocent) muslims that lost their lives on 9/11. How exactly would you think they would react if a christian church was allowed to be built near ground zero but not a muslim mosque (or rather community center because thats what it is if im not mistaken). Thats not exactly what i call religious freedom.
No, I am talking about right on top of your tomb. I feared this might happen. In my first post in this thread, I emphasised that I was arguing from the assumption that it was ON ground zero. I started by saying that since it is two blocks away, it is alright to build the mosque.
As for the other things you wrote, I feel like you are straying too far away from my argument and trying to turn me into something I am not by giving me opinions I have never had, so I am done arguing with you.
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On September 13 2010 06:36 Keyser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 06:20 ChinaRestaurant wrote:On September 13 2010 06:13 Keyser wrote:On September 13 2010 06:08 ChinaRestaurant wrote:
Well as i said im not in tip top form today. I mightve not understood everything exactly the way you meant it. My point was that i dont think anyone should reduce a religion with 1.6 billion members to a few thousand extremists. I have done no such thing, even if I do believe the number of extremists(depending on what you define as extremist) is significantly higher than a few thousand. Suppose you have a pet, and I am a member of some animal protection group. I kill you and free your pet. Are every member of animal protection groups like me? Certainly not. I am the extremist, they are just regular people who like animals. Would it now be appropriate that they sang animal freedom songs on your tomb? If your parents told them to stop singing on your tomb, would they be calling them murderers too? You mean 2 block away from my tomb? Lets make it 10 is that far enough? Or 20? Its not only that its disrespectful of THEIR religion but also of THEIR losses. Like i said, im quite sure there were a lot of (innocent) muslims that lost their lives on 9/11. How exactly would you think they would react if a christian church was allowed to be built near ground zero but not a muslim mosque (or rather community center because thats what it is if im not mistaken). Thats not exactly what i call religious freedom. No, I am talking about right on top of your tomb. I feared this might happen. In my first post in this thread, I emphasised that I was arguing from the assumption that it was ON ground zero. I started by saying that since it is two blocks away, it is alright to build the mosque. As for the other things you wrote, I feel like you are straying too far away from my argument and trying to turn me into something I am not by giving me opinions I have never had, so I am done arguing with you.
So you're hypothetically arguing about "if the mosque was on Ground Zero then this would be my opinion?" What?
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All I'm suggesting is that we let the 1.57 million people who are Muslims and aren't extremists have the same rights the rest of us do.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PT4KI.png)
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EPT
