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Hey PredY,
good to see something new. Pitty you lost to Underdark yesterday in TLO, was a painful game to watch from your perspective as you couldn't event get to this mech transition. Id like to suggest something you could try.
What about starting your tank production right when you switch your starport with factory for medivacs/vikings..
Or say at least after 1-2 sets of those. I see at about 12:00 in your game vs Underdark there is enough room to make this happen. You could probably take your 4th gas a bit earlier, so you can start working on tanks right after you switch.
This way you could match 2-3 collosi with your 3-4 Tanks and give your bio at least some chance to fight force fields + Colossus. In those mid game skirmishes, you lose a good portion of bio without dealing any damage thanks to superior position of Protoss. With firepower and range of tanks Protoss can't engage at will throwing down force fields and just abusing the range of Colossus.
I dont know, maybe this would eat a lot of resources, but at least something you could think about.
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I watched the last replay the one in which you lost. You were ahead in food the whole game but in the final battle the bio army you kept took up the supply that was meant for tanks. They melt to storm and colossi instantly before they could do any real damage and basically that caused you the game. The way I see it, it's dangerous to keep too much bio in a 200/200 army when you're facing an all-AOE toss deathball, even you have been ahead the whole game. Better off make a smooth transition into full mech by slowly throwing away your bio in mid game thru harrassments.
Another thing, have you tried full mech right from the beginning? It's a little difficult on the current ladder map pool due to small distances, but I think it could be fully viable on a big map. I've been experimenting this for months with decent success, but it really gives me a headache when toss tries to punish my immobility.
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Been watching the reps.
So I guess the basic idea is:
-Mass marines and bunkers to defend like Synystyr's primary build.
-Add marauders and medivacs(marauders and medivacs are the unit that lets you push out to take a third)
-Use medivacs and hellion production out of 1 fact to start dropping while you add factories so Protoss cannot move out.
You also want to stay on the mineral heavy units to stockpile gas for your factories.
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On February 20 2011 22:26 Terranium wrote:
I watched the last replay the one in which you lost. You were ahead in food the whole game but in the final battle the bio army you kept took up the supply that was meant for tanks. They melt to storm and colossi instantly before they could do any real damage and basically that caused you the game. The way I see it, it's dangerous to keep too much bio in a 200/200 army when you're facing an all-AOE toss deathball, even you have been ahead the whole game. Better off make a smooth transition into full mech by slowly throwing away your bio in mid game thru harrassments.
Another thing, have you tried full mech right from the beginning? It's a little difficult on the current ladder map pool due to small distances, but I think it could be fully viable on a big map. I've been experimenting this for months with decent success, but it really gives me a headache when toss tries to punish my immobility.
as it is diffirent from this guide i don't want to discuss it very much, but yes, it is definately viable, but mech is the strongest on 3base and with pure mech it's hard to get there (because 1 immortal comes and it's over lol j/k). it difficult once protoss realizes whats going on and scouts for hellion harass. also it's very frustrating, at least for me. but definately viable.
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I have a question, in the replays I've seen. Your opponent always seem to go mass gateway? What happens when Protoss goes robo heavy or transitions in stargate? The bunker openings are vulnerable to a variety of early game air (warp prism/void ray) combined with a large ground push or blink plays. How do you deal with that?
I know that Synystyr will pop out a Thor first in some of his builds to deal with this.
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On February 20 2011 23:29 Antisocialmunky wrote:
I have a question, in the replays I've seen. Your opponent always seem to go mass gateway? What happens when Protoss goes robo heavy or transitions in stargate? The bunker openings are vulnerable to a variety of early game air (warp prism/void ray) combined with a large ground push or blink plays. How do you deal with that?
I know that Synystyr will pop out a Thor first in some of his builds to deal with this.
well not sure what you mean exactly.
i think FE with bunkers is able to hold off a many kinds of protoss 1base allins. i must admit i lost a game vs protoss going for warpprism, but that was mainly because lack of scouting from my side.
i think with 3+ bunkers and scvs repairing them you should be fine to hold off any kind of frontal attacks. when facing warpprism, kill it at all costs. 3gate voidray could be good vs this but if you keep few marines in the bunkers with scvs reparing and have some marines fighting the voidrays, as you have stim you should be fine i guess.
i think 2base allin (double robo or mass upgr) is very strong because they will hit when you transition into mech, i gotta try to play against that.
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This is funny, just losted a couple of games to toss and thought i should look for some help, and there it was, on first page. Since I'm no where near Masters I guess I'm not loosing mainly b/c of my composition but that my macro/micro slips. But that doesnt mean that this will not help me.
Even tough i guess i will need som more practise before i can do this 100% i thank you. Allways fun the see people but some effort in thier "strats" and topics.
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TLO just did exactly what I posted above and it worked wonders.. But he did not transition into mech, just kept MMM + Tanks/Vikings + upgrades.. Well, he was about to mass banshees, but the game was over already. No need to transition into mech, you just keep having pros of both Mech and Bio - Firepower + mobility, nicely done..
Check the replay, its uploaded here - http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/cup83/download/25117023/
Around 12-13 minutes, without 2 bunkers + 2-3 Tanks, eviL could've pushed in and basically kill all the bio.. I think, this is pretty safe way how to get the power of Tanks in TvP..
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On February 20 2011 23:51 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 23:29 Antisocialmunky wrote:
I have a question, in the replays I've seen. Your opponent always seem to go mass gateway? What happens when Protoss goes robo heavy or transitions in stargate? The bunker openings are vulnerable to a variety of early game air (warp prism/void ray) combined with a large ground push or blink plays. How do you deal with that?
I know that Synystyr will pop out a Thor first in some of his builds to deal with this. well not sure what you mean exactly. i think FE with bunkers is able to hold off a many kinds of protoss 1base allins. i must admit i lost a game vs protoss going for warpprism, but that was mainly because lack of scouting from my side. i think with 3+ bunkers and scvs repairing them you should be fine to hold off any kind of frontal attacks. when facing warpprism, kill it at all costs. 3gate voidray could be good vs this but if you keep few marines in the bunkers with scvs reparing and have some marines fighting the voidrays, as you have stim you should be fine i guess. i think 2base allin (double robo or mass upgr) is very strong because they will hit when you transition into mech, i gotta try to play against that.
Well I think that I was mixing 2 ideas so I will try to articulate better.
1) There are several builds that Protoss can do that are designed to force Terran to pull units from the bunkers at the front. Among these are warp prism harass and void ray plays. This forces Terran to pull units out of bunkers to deal with it because you traded taking an early expo for production.(IE, they hit before your 3/4 rax kick in) At this point, Toss can do an immortal/sentry push through the front while part of your army is in the back.
Additionally there is the blink stalker play which is pretty much an all in that allows Toss to bypass the bunkers entirely. Synystyr goes for a pair of fast Thor to deal with this, how do you deal with this?
2) Your opponent seems to always go mass gateway. I think this is probably just what the ICCup maps favor for now but what happens if Toss gets immortals in the mid game instead of a stalker heavy army? By immortals, I mean a lot of immortals (8+). Your mech army takes a long time to mass so Protoss has plenty of time to either go air or carriers. How does your build fair against this?
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On February 21 2011 03:41 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 23:51 PredY wrote:On February 20 2011 23:29 Antisocialmunky wrote:
I have a question, in the replays I've seen. Your opponent always seem to go mass gateway? What happens when Protoss goes robo heavy or transitions in stargate? The bunker openings are vulnerable to a variety of early game air (warp prism/void ray) combined with a large ground push or blink plays. How do you deal with that?
I know that Synystyr will pop out a Thor first in some of his builds to deal with this. well not sure what you mean exactly. i think FE with bunkers is able to hold off a many kinds of protoss 1base allins. i must admit i lost a game vs protoss going for warpprism, but that was mainly because lack of scouting from my side. i think with 3+ bunkers and scvs repairing them you should be fine to hold off any kind of frontal attacks. when facing warpprism, kill it at all costs. 3gate voidray could be good vs this but if you keep few marines in the bunkers with scvs reparing and have some marines fighting the voidrays, as you have stim you should be fine i guess. i think 2base allin (double robo or mass upgr) is very strong because they will hit when you transition into mech, i gotta try to play against that. Well I think that I was mixing 2 ideas so I will try to articulate better. 1) There are several builds that Protoss can do that are designed to force Terran to pull units from the bunkers at the front. Among these are warp prism harass and void ray plays. This forces Terran to pull units out of bunkers to deal with it because you traded taking an early expo for production.(IE, they hit before your 3/4 rax kick in) At this point, Toss can do an immortal/sentry push through the front while part of your army is in the back. Additionally there is the blink stalker play which is pretty much an all in that allows Toss to bypass the bunkers entirely. Synystyr goes for a pair of fast Thor to deal with this, how do you deal with this? 2) Your opponent seems to always go mass gateway. I think this is probably just what the ICCup maps favor for now but what happens if Toss gets immortals in the mid game instead of a stalker heavy army? By immortals, I mean a lot of immortals (8+). Your mech army takes a long time to mass so Protoss has plenty of time to either go air or carriers. How does your build fair against this?
well... i just scouts and scans and when see no expo i should scout what kind of 1base it is and then prepare. i believe blink would be very strong but fast expo with fast stim is fairly good vs any 1base P build i think.
about 2nd point, i'm never worried about immortals since i get ghosts almost every time i transition and about air, well again, have to scout it, but usually you have vikings because of collosi and thors, which stall fairly well against carriers to get vikings up.
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little update, unfortunately i wasn't able to get any of my protoss friends to play with me today, fucking tournament day in europe today. and on top of that, i won't be able to play sc2 for next few days so i won't be able to try all the suggestions therefore no replays updates from me  . i promise i'll update with new replays towards the end of the week tho.
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I really like the idea, looking forward to watching the replays. I loved TvP Mech in StarCraft 1, to me the siege tank was what Terran was all about, it was their 'defining unit', and it was awesome, but in StarCraft 2 there's just a bunch of Marauders running around the map most of the time, it doesnt feel 'Terran' to me, it feels more like StarCraft 1 Protoss.
It seems the key to making mech work in SC 2 is finding a replacement for the vulture, and M&M harass with drops may be the best substitute at the moment.
I was also wondering if a Marine-Tank-Hellion mix could work against Protoss in the early stages, using hellion harass and marine drops to pressure protoss while keeping tanks back to defend, gradually building up their numbers before pushing on 3 bases and switching to pure mech production. I have no idea if this would work well though.
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Hey predy. I'm not quite as good as you (I'm 3700~ masters on NA but have no good tournament results) but I'm heading towards the same kind of playstyle. I also fooled around with bio-->mech transitions exactly as you describe it. Most of the times, as the Terran, we find ourselves doing anything we can to buy time to get the critical transition down. It is then we are so very vulnerable to pushes, because the fact of going mech is you NEED that 3rd set of gas fast and then soon the 4th. So the conundrum is doing the transition and defending a third. A lot of times I find this impossible vs standard 2 base colossus play, as they will just turtle until their big push, and ignore a drop at that point.
Thus, I have been trying to work out a few openings that allow for faster mech, and even pure mech play. To my surprise I'm having a good amount of success.
On a lot of maps, you can go 1 rax FE and hold off most kinds of pressure. I like to get the factory and the 2nd gas ASAP after dropping the expansion CC. This way, for any 1 base push you are assured to have 3 or 4 tanks, and bunkers with marines. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy safe.
Of course, depending upon what you scout, you can go fast starport, fast blueflame, ghosts (good for annoying immortal timing attacks), or medivac. I'm astounded by all the possibilities really, because after so many games of bio, and now switching to mech, there are SO many new things to learn.
Anyhow, back on topic, going mech opening FIRST allows you to be much safer when trying to take a 3rd. On some maps like LT, you won't have a problem, cause you can extend your tank line at the Xel'Naga. In fact, cross positions that map is my favorite for this new mech style. However on something like metalopolis, you have to be quite careful with your army to be able to successfully defend your 3rd and natural. There are a few ways of doing it, personally I like the early sensor tower.
The beauty of not opening bio into mech is that you can usually defend with fewer units, meaning almost always (in my experience so far), you have a faster 3rd, 4th, 5th than the opponent.
Things really start rolling with your 3rd up. This is when I like to get up to 4 or 5 factory, 1 reactor, and start massing tank+hellion (and of course some ghost). All the hellions allow you to constantly have vision of their army and expos so long as your are vigilant about it. Now you can run around with blueflames into unsuspecting probe lines, drop them, etc etc. Also, like you said, double armory is quite potent and you need to make sure to have vikings if they got too many colossus or void ray.
I also agree with your transition into mass orbital. It really frees up some much needed pop, and most games I find myself floating 2k+ minerals around when my 4th is finishing anyway.
Late game is more or less just mass tank+hellion with some thor+ghost+viking sprinkled in as needed. It's quite fun running around with such a potent army like in the BW days. The most important thing here is picking your spots to fight. My favorite part of the lategame is the fact that I can throw units into the protoss ball constantly, and remax my army faster as long as I'm not losing too many tanks each go around.
If you want to see some replays I have of this, let me know. I think my style is a bit safer for getting the 3rd and into the lategame, but struggles more against 1 and 2 base pushes which you seem to have covered well with the early bio.
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United Arab Emirates245 Posts
I find alot of trouble switching into mech when my protoss opponent uses the Pheonix/Colossi mix, that's extremely potent vs most mech because once he has those ton of pheonix he can use them to lift up the tanks + get a ton of map control and deny drops. So will I have to stick to bio if that's the case, or what exactly? Im confused now =(
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Wow, those reps got me going. Care to upload more replays? I really liked seeing this strat play out.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 21 2011 17:28 lizzuma wrote:
Hey predy. I'm not quite as good as you (I'm 3700~ masters on NA but have no good tournament results) but I'm heading towards the same kind of playstyle. I also fooled around with bio-->mech transitions exactly as you describe it. Most of the times, as the Terran, we find ourselves doing anything we can to buy time to get the critical transition down. It is then we are so very vulnerable to pushes, because the fact of going mech is you NEED that 3rd set of gas fast and then soon the 4th. So the conundrum is doing the transition and defending a third. A lot of times I find this impossible vs standard 2 base colossus play, as they will just turtle until their big push, and ignore a drop at that point.
Thus, I have been trying to work out a few openings that allow for faster mech, and even pure mech play. To my surprise I'm having a good amount of success.
On a lot of maps, you can go 1 rax FE and hold off most kinds of pressure. I like to get the factory and the 2nd gas ASAP after dropping the expansion CC. This way, for any 1 base push you are assured to have 3 or 4 tanks, and bunkers with marines. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy safe.
Of course, depending upon what you scout, you can go fast starport, fast blueflame, ghosts (good for annoying immortal timing attacks), or medivac. I'm astounded by all the possibilities really, because after so many games of bio, and now switching to mech, there are SO many new things to learn.
Anyhow, back on topic, going mech opening FIRST allows you to be much safer when trying to take a 3rd. On some maps like LT, you won't have a problem, cause you can extend your tank line at the Xel'Naga. In fact, cross positions that map is my favorite for this new mech style. However on something like metalopolis, you have to be quite careful with your army to be able to successfully defend your 3rd and natural. There are a few ways of doing it, personally I like the early sensor tower.
The beauty of not opening bio into mech is that you can usually defend with fewer units, meaning almost always (in my experience so far), you have a faster 3rd, 4th, 5th than the opponent.
Things really start rolling with your 3rd up. This is when I like to get up to 4 or 5 factory, 1 reactor, and start massing tank+hellion (and of course some ghost). All the hellions allow you to constantly have vision of their army and expos so long as your are vigilant about it. Now you can run around with blueflames into unsuspecting probe lines, drop them, etc etc. Also, like you said, double armory is quite potent and you need to make sure to have vikings if they got too many colossus or void ray.
I also agree with your transition into mass orbital. It really frees up some much needed pop, and most games I find myself floating 2k+ minerals around when my 4th is finishing anyway.
Late game is more or less just mass tank+hellion with some thor+ghost+viking sprinkled in as needed. It's quite fun running around with such a potent army like in the BW days. The most important thing here is picking your spots to fight. My favorite part of the lategame is the fact that I can throw units into the protoss ball constantly, and remax my army faster as long as I'm not losing too many tanks each go around.
If you want to see some replays I have of this, let me know. I think my style is a bit safer for getting the 3rd and into the lategame, but struggles more against 1 and 2 base pushes which you seem to have covered well with the early bio.
hi i'm not very sure what you mean, if you uploaded few reps i'd be glad. I used to do reactor rax expo into factory and MMM tank viking but it was fairly risky vs all that 1base stuff like blink stalkers really raped me since i had only few tanks and no stim marines.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 21 2011 19:09 XothermeK wrote:
I find alot of trouble switching into mech when my protoss opponent uses the Pheonix/Colossi mix, that's extremely potent vs most mech because once he has those ton of pheonix he can use them to lift up the tanks + get a ton of map control and deny drops. So will I have to stick to bio if that's the case, or what exactly? Im confused now =(
well i think there are few ways how to play against that. either stick with bio and vikings to snipe the collosi, or get more thors to counter the phoenix + ghosts. i think if it's strong 2base play then i guess you shouldnt transition but if protoss aims for 3rd base you can switch and with thors/vikings/ghosts you should be able to counter it
+ Show Spoiler +On February 21 2011 19:14 Aldehyde wrote:
Wow, those reps got me going. Care to upload more replays? I really liked seeing this strat play out.
i can't play sc2 for few days but i will play more towards the end of the week so i'll upload some
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Predy, i watched all your replays. They are great, but in each of the winning ones, you bassicly outmacroed your opponent, so i have felling you would won that games even if you have continued with bio army instead of switching into mech.
Now i'm looking forward to see more of your games, since i belive your expanding technique and map awareness are just awesome.
I want to know thou, in which of games that you won, you think that you could have lost if you hadn't have made the mech transition?
good day, svizcy
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On February 22 2011 02:11 Svizcy wrote:
Predy, i watched all your replays. They are great, but in each of the winning ones, you bassicly outmacroed your opponent, so i have felling you would won that games even if you have continued with bio army instead of switching into mech.
Now i'm looking forward to see more of your games, since i belive your expanding technique and map awareness are just awesome.
I want to know thou, in which of games that you won, you think that you could have lost if you hadn't have made the mech transition?
good day, svizcy
hi, actually i kinda felt the same.
i must say i kinda forgot what the games looked like :D but i think in the second replay where i lose my 3rd base that was pretty tough, or the game on xelnaga where the tanks helped me a lot, but i won that one because of my good drop.
i think there's a good example though, in the first replay where i lose, i lose my army but he doesn't finish me off so i can rebuild a bit and there you can see where my 2/2 mech completely rapes his ground army. unfortunately i was way behind already but i fought well anyway
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Yeah sorry, it was 4 a.m. when I posted and it was kind of vague.
My strategy is basically to try to 1 rax FE into pure mech, or 1 rax 1 fact expand when the map is not as safe. I feel it's safer for getting the third than your build. On the other hand, your build allows for mid game agression, while I basically have to turtle until my third is up. The basic idea is for me is to have 1 rax 2 fact 1 port off of 2 base. After getting 4 or 5 tanks (basically however many make me feel safe based on what I scout), I start researching blue flame and doing hellion production. Then eventually moving into 5 or 6 factory on 3 base, and adding them as money allows.
A relatively early starport allows you to go medivac for a possible delayed blue flame drop, raven for DT/blink stalker, or banshee for heavy zealot/immortal builds. I feel like with a good 1 rax FE, you'll have plenty of marines and bunkers for any 1 base play, and faster tanks as well to help get the third up.
Obviously the build is vulnerable in the early game but I think it has a lot of potential. Here are 2 replays:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142538-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station
+ Show Spoiler +1 rax expand into early starport. Taking my 2nd and 3rd quite early felt quite safe because of his unit composition and the map.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142542-2v2-terran-protoss-shakuras-plateau
+ Show Spoiler +Again, 1 rax expand because of the map into mech. Because of my spy marine at his third, I felt comfortable turtling on 2 base for quite a while.
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On February 22 2011 03:46 lizzuma wrote:Yeah sorry, it was 4 a.m. when I posted and it was kind of vague. My strategy is basically to try to 1 rax FE into pure mech, or 1 rax 1 fact expand when the map is not as safe. I feel it's safer for getting the third than your build. On the other hand, your build allows for mid game agression, while I basically have to turtle until my third is up. The basic idea is for me is to have 1 rax 2 fact 1 port off of 2 base. After getting 4 or 5 tanks (basically however many make me feel safe based on what I scout), I start researching blue flame and doing hellion production. Then eventually moving into 5 or 6 factory on 3 base, and adding them as money allows. A relatively early starport allows you to go medivac for a possible delayed blue flame drop, raven for DT/blink stalker, or banshee for heavy zealot/immortal builds. I feel like with a good 1 rax FE, you'll have plenty of marines and bunkers for any 1 base play, and faster tanks as well to help get the third up. Obviously the build is vulnerable in the early game but I think it has a lot of potential. Here are 2 replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142538-1v1-terran-protoss-scrap-station+ Show Spoiler +1 rax expand into early starport. Taking my 2nd and 3rd quite early felt quite safe because of his unit composition and the map. Again, 1 rax expand because of the map into mech. Because of my spy marine at his third, I felt comfortable turtling on 2 base for quite a while.
thanks im gonna watch them (when i download patches ^^) but i have an idea what you do, i used to do smth similar. what was a big pain were blink stalkers or very agressive 1base immortal pushes or 6gate pushes but those werent as big pain as blink stalkers.
i mentioned earlier that pure mech builds are definately viable tho i don't like them very nuch since it's hard to pressure and protoss can abuse it well. i still play like that a bit
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EPT
