The Problem With Esports - Page 3

2Pacalypse-

Croatia9498 Posts

September 29 2010 16:37 GMT

#41

This is such an awesome post that I wish everyone on Teamliquid reads it (sadly, only small fraction actually will).

And this is exactly why I wish SC2 was never made.
Just imagine what would've happen to BW then? Nothing!
We'd probably still watch professional BW in 20 years, pretty much the same way we watch every other sport.
Not saying this still can't happen, even with SC2 threatening BW's existence, but now it's just much more unnecessarily harder.

revy

United States1524 Posts

September 29 2010 16:57 GMT

#42

I don't know about you guys but I'm a big fan of Chess 2 and Baseball 2.

The key is that new is not always better, particularly with a product as intricate as a balanced RTS.With a system as volatile as a high end RTS, balance and more importantly long term balance, are not an easy thing. Couple this with the fact that balance and enjoyable to watch are really the only features of an e-sport and you can see how a newer but less balanced game will be inferior.

Now, seeing as Blizzard is going to patch the heck out of SC2 for the next 8+ years with no balance support for BW and I am forced to agree that I believe SC2 will eventually wrest the mantle of king of esports from BW. But that wont happen for a long time, there is such a huge gap between a leessang rok match and anything you see in SC2 that we have time left.

NeVeR

1352 Posts

September 29 2010 17:28 GMT

#43

Fantastic post. I agree with most of what you wrote. However, if we want e-sports to grow outside of Korea, I feel like it will have to take a more modern game like SC2. People in the west simply don't get e-sports, and I don't think that a 12 year old game has any hope of making them understand at this point. Though of course there is absolutely no reason why BW has to be brushed under the rug more than it already is. I really hope that the professional BW leagues in Korea stay in tact for a long time to come.

On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote:
ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:

1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over.
BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.

3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?

3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.

4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world?
Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.

Sigh, unfortunately SC2 has also caused an influx of a great number of terrible posters on TL.

Edit: btw, this thread should be spotlighted.

L_Master

United States8017 Posts

September 29 2010 17:41 GMT

#44

Broadcasting Starcraft games has improved as well, as we could see for the past 12 years. The one downside to computer games is that they quickly become outdated in terms of quality, right? Starcraft is really pixelated and grainy compared to the newest games. So, several years down the road, it'd be hard to justify why people are still broadcasting Starcraft when the quality is so "bad" relative to the current games.

I know that tons of people make this argument, but I totally disagree with it. I think there is a minimal, at best, correlation bwtween graphics and enjoyment. Good graphics don't make a game better, or more interesting to watch. If BW was updated to 3D and HD and still played the same as 640*480 BW, I wouldn't find the HD BroodWar any more interesting than its predecessor. Honestly in some ways the simple "outdated" graphics make it much easier to see what is going on in the game. I had, and still have to some extent, some difficulty identifying exactly whats in an army composition in SC2, and instantly recognizing some of the buildings doesn't always happen for me. All else being equal, a game having great graphics can make it marginally better, but for me its a pretty minimal thing.

andrewlt

United States7702 Posts

September 29 2010 17:53 GMT

#45

I disagree completely with BW being accessible to casual gamers. You need high APM to do anything in that game. People in TL keep complaining about removing MBS and automine and the like, but even with the interface improvements in SC2, casual players are still more intimidated by SC2 than by basketball. Plenty of people didn't bother with SC2 because they were intimidated by the APM requirements to play the game.

Multiplayer SC2, to a casual observer, is just as intimidating as tackle football, where you can get seriously injured. BW is even less casual friendly. I think many posters here are looking with blinders on and just forget how important the casual fanbase is compared to the hardcore one.

xxpack09

United States2160 Posts

September 29 2010 18:05 GMT

#46

Nice thread

Yodo

Russian Federation327 Posts

September 29 2010 18:19 GMT

#47

Nice post.
I should add that despite some speculations SCBW is easily accessible by any noob. Some people just don't ready for actual competitive play but try it anyway. Have you join football club right after buying a ball? What about some free play with your friends or some street commands? I'm casual player and hit d/d+ after a month of play without any particular dedication. Really, I found current state more interesting than smashing some plat noobs.

Bwenjarin Raffrack

United States322 Posts

September 29 2010 18:43 GMT

#48

Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.

ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan.
+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler +

Even when you're terrible

ESPORTS is growing up to be just like your hero.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is a shitty TV drama being made about your lifestyle.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is fangirls praying for you in the audience.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is celebrating your victory after the big game.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is having major pimp cred when you win.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is being sexy for your fans.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is being a rock star.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say.
+ Show Spoiler +

Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.

Edit: Added more.

TurboDreams

United States427 Posts

September 29 2010 18:51 GMT

#49

On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:
Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.

ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan.
+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler +

Even when you're terrible

ESPORTS is a shitty TV drama being made about your lifestyle.
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tObt6eSNRA

ESPORTS is fangirls praying for you in the audience.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is celebrating your victory after the big game.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is having major pimp cred when you win.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is being sexy for your fans.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is being a rock star.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say.
+ Show Spoiler +

Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.

Awesome post! GG no RE :D

Oozo

Finland432 Posts

September 29 2010 19:04 GMT

#50

ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan.
+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler +

Even when you're terrible

ESPORTS is a shitty TV drama being made about your lifestyle.
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tObt6eSNRA

ESPORTS is fangirls praying for you in the audience.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is celebrating your victory after the big game.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is having major pimp cred when you win.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is being sexy for your fans.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is being a rock star.
+ Show Spoiler +

ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say.
+ Show Spoiler +

Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.

This post made my day. Seriously those pics are too much of an Amazing to begin with. GG indeed

robertdinh

803 Posts

September 29 2010 19:13 GMT

#51

Right now esports goes through it's ups and downs because everyone is trying to make a quick buck on it. BW was a great VIDEO GAME and it is great at a highly competitive level, but when esports stabilizes into something that is global with true pro gamers on a GLOBAL scale (everyone outside of korea seems to think that just because you wear a tag you are professional, even if you conduct yourself like a 12 year old internet kiddy) I have a feeling it will be focused on team-oriented games.

The biggest problem though is you have game developers trying to cash in on the hype behind esports.

What is needed is a company to develop games for many genres specifically designed for esports from the ground up. With the sole intention of making esports stable and credible. You can not say blizzard operates for the sake of esports, so blizzard is not the company we should be looking towards for the evolution of esports.

omgbbq2

Canada169 Posts

September 29 2010 19:24 GMT

#52

i agree with ajin whole heartedly. bw did have its time and its time to move on to sc2

robertdinh

803 Posts

September 29 2010 19:25 GMT

#53

On September 30 2010 04:24 omgbbq2 wrote:
i agree with ajin whole heartedly. bw did have its time and its time to move on to sc2

Why is it time to move on specifically to sc2? Is sc2 a better competitive game?

omgbbq2

Canada169 Posts

September 29 2010 19:34 GMT

#54

well for the casual gamers at least, but most likely within a year all bw will move to sc2. sponsors changing too quickyl

Tazza

Korea (South)1678 Posts

September 29 2010 19:38 GMT

#55

Well said man, Ipods cannot equate to baseball or futbol haha. I hope bw lives FOREVER

Borknagarush

176 Posts

September 29 2010 19:42 GMT

#56

Why is it time to move on specifically to sc2? Is sc2 a better competitive game?

But Zealots are glowing in SC2(approved by Tasteless and Artosis).

Raz0r

United States287 Posts

September 29 2010 20:09 GMT

#57

Why can't sports/chess be compared to bw? they both have competitive scenes, they have niches for spectators, they both require much skill. I would argue that both bw and sports are physical. bw you do need the multitasking and hand eye coordination, and also you need to have that mentality to win, in the same case for sports. Just because the progamers hand eye coordination affects what happens inside a computer, does not make it incomparable to the baseball/basketball, etc players who use their hand eye coordination and physical skills to control the pace of whatever their game is.

Musoeun

United States4324 Posts

September 29 2010 20:11 GMT

#58

Some random chess comparisons:

Let's pretend that ICCup rating is the standard BW ranking system (well, it is, really). Chess usually uses ELO or an ELO-based rating. Now, iCCup only applies to people who are already good enough to care how good they are, and doesn't really apply to most progamers; the corresponding chess ELO usually would run from about 1000-2400. 1000 would be a bad serious player, like a D- BW player; 2400 is a requirement for Grandmaster (pro- or Olympic level in BW). As a chess player I tend to sit around 1400, which (I think) would be equivalent to C-.

Your average chess player who hasn't studied is going to end up floating around at 600-800 usually, same as the "E" and "F" Broodwar players we joke about trying to a-move to victory. (Also like Broodwar, there's an "easy race" for most people: White.) In fact, chess is really an excellent comparison for BW, because - although for very different reasons - it's also playable by almost anybody, but extremely difficult to even be competent on the grand scale. Fortunately for it, BW is much easier to watch without already knowing the game.

neobowman

Canada3324 Posts

September 29 2010 20:29 GMT

#59

Funny has a good wall of text? The world is about to end.

But yeah, I think I agree too.

Yodo

Russian Federation327 Posts

September 29 2010 21:14 GMT

#60

bw did have its time and its time to move on to sc2

What make you feel so?
It seems like people just made lemming move towards SC2 due to the title name.
So, what if blizz made Warcrfat 4 instead? or Diablo The RTS game? Or we should always drop current game and switch to the newest one? We have two different games. Why one should exclude another? You can play both SC or SC2 and even add Civ 5 or choose one just like with any other games.

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