|
I always lol a little bit when I read about Best as an actual rival or opponent against Flash.
6-5 record against Flash, well done, but when Flash has played as many players as he has, statistically that's just going to happen sometimes. Best has little better chance against Flash than does Much, or Casy has against Jaedong.
If we're to go by H2H stats, Stats should have this match in the bag.
vs. Bisu: 3 - 0
vs. Fantasy: 3 - 2
vs. by.Sun: 1 - 0
vs. Best: 2 - 0
Bisu is so much better than Best in every way. H2H small samples shouldn't deceive you into thinking that Best is a good ace option. Fantasy would be better if it wasn't for his recent slump (which he may or may not be out of).
|
As a BeSt fan, I do feel that he stands a much better chance against Flash than Bisu, and head-to-head records have nothing to do with it. Its his style. Bisu is aggressive early on, which of course makes him a force to be reckoned with for Zergs, and most terrans. From what I can recall from his games against Flash, the ones he won (or came close), he got his advantage from very early harassment (gas steals -> goons, early zealots, etc). If that gets blocked though (or he lets the advantage slip), I don't favor his chances at all. BeSt on the other hand is a macro toss, one of the best there is (I feel similarly about horang2 but he seems to lack the affinity for the vT matchup). He favors more laid-back approaches than Bisu and gets most of his wins/close calls against Flash in the mid-late game relying on macro and positioning. His army engagements with Flash seem a lot better controlled imo (and yes I realize my opinion is a minority here).
|
I don't think Best is a good ace option at all. Don't count him out vs Flash; although I'd agree if you say that the record is a bit deceiving, he actually has a better chance than Bisu at taking Flash on in a center battle (Bisu's wins over Flash mainly come from Bisu doing what Bisu does best: spreading the field). But against anyone else, no, Best has little to no chance. Which is why Bisu is a far, far stronger ace option. The strength of Fanta as an ace option stems more from his strong ability at TvP. Right now Fanta is within spitting distance of being #1 TvP by ELO (currently ranked #3).
Regarding KT sending someone else, I think given Flash's wrist injury it is a serious consideration. The KT coach has to be careful about not dumping the whole burden on just Flash, especially if Flash's wrist decides to act up within the next week. If I were the coach I would plan a back-up, just in case. Also, you have to realize that it's easier for T1 to prepare for Flash than for Flash to prepare for T1 since T1 does have several viable options, even if only 2 of them deserve serious consideration (Fata/Bisu).
|
On July 27 2011 05:18 moopie wrote:
As a BeSt fan, I do feel that he stands a much better chance against Flash than Bisu, and head-to-head records have nothing to do with it. Its his style. Bisu is aggressive early on, which of course makes him a force to be reckoned with for Zergs, and most terrans. From what I can recall from his games against Flash, the ones he won (or came close), he got his advantage from very early harassment (gas steals -> goons, early zealots, etc). If that gets blocked though (or he lets the advantage slip), I don't favor his chances at all. BeSt on the other hand is a macro toss, one of the best there is (I feel similarly about horang2 but he seems to lack the affinity for the vT matchup). He favors more laid-back approaches than Bisu and gets most of his wins/close calls against Flash in the mid-late game relying on macro and positioning. His army engagements with Flash seem a lot better controlled imo (and yes I realize my opinion is a minority here).
Well, the difference with Best and Bisu TvP mid-late game is, Best uses Templars (and effective on top of it) :<
|
Strangelly, fantasy is winning, but he lost his cuteness somehow. Were are those cheese strats or weird builds? today win against See was inconvincing tbh...
|
EDIT: ARGHHH WRONG THREAD!!
|
Jaedong... 
|
One word: ZvZ
(Did he lose his BO-defying ability or something?)
|
That's his second big hit to his PR ranking.
|
Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
|
On July 28 2011 01:09 Mortality wrote:
Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
True--he also only has one league to focus on. I mean, Hyuk even has two leagues.
|
Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
|
On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote:
Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash?
|
I think for SKT to win vs KT, SKT just need to have EVERYONE there need a snipe build against Flash in EVERY map.
|
On July 28 2011 04:05 Xiphos wrote:
I think for SKT to win vs KT, SKT just need to have EVERYONE there need a snipe build against Flash in EVERY map.
I think that was the reason why CJ lost against KT--everyone devoted their practice time to killing Flash, and there wasn't anyone who practiced vs. the other players on KT.
|
On July 28 2011 03:08 _romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote:
Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house. That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash?
I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash.
For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently.
To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins."
Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs).
Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper.
That's basically my game plan if I'm T1.
Best v Flash
Soo v Stats
Bisu v Crazy-Hydra
Fanta v Roo
s2 v Action
Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja
Ace: Bisu
On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it).
|
On July 28 2011 05:21 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 03:08 _romantic wrote:On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote:
Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house. That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash? I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash. For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently. To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins." Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs). Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper. That's basically my game plan if I'm T1. Best v Flash Soo v Stats Bisu v Crazy-Hydra Fanta v Roo s2 v Action Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja Ace: Bisu On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it).
Wow, great answer Mortality. Thanks. Funny how this thread is turning into an SPL strat-fest. There's still plenty of time between these latest games and the SPL, so I'm looking for some epic games.
|
killer answer mortality.
what about for KT? what's their ideal?
|
On July 28 2011 05:21 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 03:08 _romantic wrote:On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote:
Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house. That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash? I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash. For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently. To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins." Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs). Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper. That's basically my game plan if I'm T1. Best v Flash Soo v Stats Bisu v Crazy-Hydra Fanta v Roo s2 v Action Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja Ace: Bisu On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it).
You seem to have forgotten about sun and to a lesser extent paralyze. I think sun would be a better choice than ssak/hyuk. Also because skt has so many 2nd tier players they can assign two different races to the later maps and then decide on the spot depending on who has already played for kt. I agree that ace has to be bisu
|
On July 28 2011 11:36 vishrut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 05:21 Mortality wrote:On July 28 2011 03:08 _romantic wrote:On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote:
Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house. That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash? I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash. For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently. To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins." Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs). Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper. That's basically my game plan if I'm T1. Best v Flash Soo v Stats Bisu v Crazy-Hydra Fanta v Roo s2 v Action Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja Ace: Bisu On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it). You seem to have forgotten about sun and to a lesser extent paralyze. I think sun would be a better choice than ssak/hyuk. Also because skt has so many 2nd tier players they can assign two different races to the later maps and then decide on the spot depending on who has already played for kt. I agree that ace has to be bisu
Yea i think he forgot about by.Sun too.. Considering Sun's current form, he is much more likely to be fielded compared to Hyuk/Ssak. However, it might not be that good a thing considering KT tend to field 4 Zergs recently.
But yea, we can field the Ace early (havnt taken another look at map order, so im not sure if this is viable), and have multiple "lesser players" prepare for a single map, and field them accordingly, depending on KT's fielded line-up at that moment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
