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On November 18 2010 05:24 Raiznhell wrote:
i almost completely disagree with iNcontroL and Liquid'Tyler about the whole TvP cloack issue in that scan is harldy a counter for dts as normally people send in dts one at a time to waste scans and plus to deal with banshees... what protoss beside a cheesy 4 gateing noobtoss doesnt get a robo against terran.... every unit out of the robo is exetremely effective against terran. even a forge and getting photon cannons is just as good as a terran missle turret except better because it can also attack ground targets...
I think aside from going 4 gate builds protoss doesnt have many excuse to die to cloaked units than any other race.
my opinion on TvP in general is they need to nerf marauders, nerf sentries, buff stalkers, nerf blink somehow to compensate and then buff siege tanks i think most of the SotG would agree here becasue all of them complain about marauders strengths and no tank variation from terrans.
regardless i think it was an awesome SotG really proud of iNcontroL despite not qualifying.
Banshees can still be used effectively, even if a protoss gets observers. If a protoss does NOT have one, they basically automatically lose unless the robo is alreay done and they can c-boost one out fast.
Dark Templar, terran has no Raven? Scans can keep them alive long enough to build a turret, and a turret can keep them alive long enough to build a Raven. Dark Templars in actual battle are not that great due to being melee, low hp.
I think that is what the brotoss were getting at. There are a lot of things vs protoss that basically is "free win", but vs zerg or terran is "puts them far behind" or "does great damage". As a zerg player, if a DT is in my base, simply runing units around until an Overseer morphs works great.
Thus protoss are very limited in opening and tech paths that are "safe and standard" while T/Z can experiment and try wonky things to win a match.
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On November 18 2010 05:27 Antoine wrote:
the 1st round of chanting was "show the game"
then huk said in in-game chat, "what are they chanting? mothership?" or something along those lines
then the 2nd round of chanting was "mothership"
i was there too =P
Yes, they were chanting mothership during the game HuK went the mothership which is what iNcontroL is referring to.
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On November 18 2010 05:28 emperorchampion wrote:JP, I understand linking directly to the site and wanting people to download from there- but seriously please fix the site so that it: 1) Doesn't look ass ugly (not a huge concern, but still) 2) Actually downloads, so people don't have to rehost  Great episode, as always! :D
I'm sure he would love to do this if you were to help him pay for a web designer and more bandwidth...
It's funny how Day 9 was just talking about this exact issue on the podcast.
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8748 Posts
On November 18 2010 05:19 kaisr wrote:
when tyler said his mechanics were better in BW than sc2 did he mean in compared to everyone else or in absolute terms?
both. i had better mechanics (way better) when i was at my best in bw than i have now in sc2. and in bw i had the best mechanics outside of korea along with idra, which i cant claim to have atm with sc2.
recent history prior to sc2 beta:
i quit bw in february 2009 and came back in january 2010. idra definitely surpassed me mechanically during that time, and he was mechanically superior when we were playing TSL2 (january - february 2010) but not so superior that he could win every game based purely on mechanics, and also not so superior that he could rely purely on mechanics to win a bo5 (map preferences definitely played a role there though -- he wouldnt rely on mechanics on a protoss favored map but he would on a terran favored map). but note that at the time of TSL2, idra had been playing full time in korea (~10 hours a day) for about 2.5 years or so. i came off a 10 month break, and played about 30 hours a week while taking a full load of classes, and was still able to brush up in about a month to mechanically dominate everyone in TSL2 except idra.
against tarson, for example, who i had to play after i'd been practicing for only 3-4 weeks, i chose some safe builds and i just micro'd and macro'd. it should be kind of telling of my style of play, and the strength of my mechanics, that i'd choose to rely on mechanics in the ro16 of the TSL despite practicing so little.
of course, being able to get back in shape quickly isn't what matters the most. idra did achieve better mechanics than i ever did.
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8748 Posts
btw i'd just like to say that i liked where the TvP discussion ended up with the point that protoss is very very unforgiving but, if played perfectly, has some compositions and timings that are really strong. it kinda reminds me of terran in sc1 and terran, of course, was the most successful race in sc1 =]
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On November 18 2010 05:50 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:19 kaisr wrote:
when tyler said his mechanics were better in BW than sc2 did he mean in compared to everyone else or in absolute terms? both. i had better mechanics (way better) when i was at my best in bw than i have now in sc2. and in bw i had the best mechanics outside of korea along with idra, which i cant claim to have atm with sc2. recent history prior to sc2 beta: i quit bw in february 2009 and came back in january 2010. idra definitely surpassed me mechanically during that time, and he was mechanically superior when we were playing TSL2 (january - february 2010) but not so superior that he could win every game based purely on mechanics, and also not so superior that he could rely purely on mechanics to win a bo5 (map preferences definitely played a role there though -- he wouldnt rely on mechanics on a protoss favored map but he would on a terran favored map). but note that at the time of TSL2, idra had been playing full time in korea (~10 hours a day) for about 2.5 years or so. i came off a 10 month break, and played about 30 hours a week while taking a full load of classes, and was still able to brush up in about a month to mechanically dominate everyone in TSL2 except idra. against tarson, for example, who i had to play after i'd been practicing for only 3-4 weeks, i chose some safe builds and i just micro'd and macro'd. it should be kind of telling of my style of play, and the strength of my mechanics, that i'd choose to rely on mechanics in the ro16 of the TSL despite practicing so little. of course, being able to get back in shape quickly isn't what matters the most. idra did achieve better mechanics than i ever did.
in short: Tyler was an elephant sized ballz king of bosses who ball slapped everyone with some awesome BW play. Definately my fave BW player even though he plays toss. Which im so sorry for. 
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Geoff I think your a really great player and I really enjoyed watching your play in BW but you are being an ignorant dumbass when it comes to balance and how protoss is as a race. You're obviously a very smart guy that can play really smart strategies but your mindset about Protoss is going to stop you performing as well as you could.
If you are going into games with the same mindset you are showing in the cast, that protoss are so much weaker than the other races, then you are going to suck. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, if you are thinking that you can't beat people becasue of the race you play then you are going to play worse than you would otherwise. It's coming out in your games too, you seem to be cheesing and going all-in in situations where you don't have to, as if you feel you can't win otherwise. Which sucks to see.
If you really think it's a weaker race just fucking switch man, it would be better than mentally cockblocking yourself. You said yourself your success in BW was reliant on what your opponents are capable of and exploiting those things, it's like you have totally forgotten about that part of the game and almost out-thinking yourself into a lose-lose situation.
I'm not saying your right or wrong in regards to any kind of balance issues, but you're just shooting yourself in the foot having it in your head that there are any at all. Similar to what has been said before about the internal monologue at tournaments "what if I win" and so on, It's the same thing.
I could be wrong on what your real mindset is but that is how it comes across in the podcast. And if that is the way you're thinking it is going to hurt your play regardless of what the real balance situation actually is.
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Is something wrong with the file? When I listen to it on vlc its fine but the same file on WMP only plays to that point where inc is talkin about game3 like others have complained.
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On November 18 2010 05:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
btw i'd just like to say that i liked where the TvP discussion ended up with the point that protoss is very very unforgiving but, if played perfectly, has some compositions and timings that are really strong. it kinda reminds me of terran in sc1 and terran, of course, was the most successful race in sc1 =]
Protoss should start working on builds like cannon rushing with a mothership before they can complain about balance.
Mothership -> never see this unit used even though it's unbelievable, huge, and cool.
Pure Sentry -> never see this composition even though forcefields are cool.
I hope more protoss explore the cool options and turn the race into beastmode.
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haha thanks for replying. Maybe I'm just not understanding the term mechanics correctly, because in BW I felt my mechanics (which i guess I'm using sort of as a synonym for macro) was one of my strengths compared to other players at my level (C- lol). But I obviously still missed probe pumps, had idle probes, missed gateway pumps etc. Now in SC2, I pretty much never miss probe pumps early game-mid game unless I'm all-inning, they're already rallied to mining, MBS makes pumping units easier, so in that sense I don't understand how I can say my mechanics were better in BW compared to SC2. I can only say my mechanics in BW compared to everyone else is better than my mechanics in SC2 compared to everyone else.
Also to add Tyler, you were my second favorite foreigner (first being JF). I also played you once on ICCUP when you were laddering up for TSL2. I was quite proud that I was at the same psi as you the entire game and got my expo going and up at the same time you did and only lost when your reaver micro completely destroyed mine
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On November 18 2010 06:14 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2010 05:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
btw i'd just like to say that i liked where the TvP discussion ended up with the point that protoss is very very unforgiving but, if played perfectly, has some compositions and timings that are really strong. it kinda reminds me of terran in sc1 and terran, of course, was the most successful race in sc1 =] Protoss should start working on builds like cannon rushing with a mothership before they can complain about balance. Mothership -> never see this unit used even though it's unbelievable, huge, and cool. Pure Sentry -> never see this composition even though forcefields are cool. I hope more protoss explore the cool options and turn the race into beastmode.
I think Overseers are cool, and I don't really see them that often, so Zerg should really start going mass Overseers. =)
Anyway, I have to agree and hope that we will see some cool and solid builds from Protoss in the time to come, which will differentiate between the 'kind-of-good' players and very good players.
Also, just want to say sorry for the little upset I somehow started with my one comment some pages ago. I realize that I chose my words very badly. I am a big fan of the show and everyone in it, seriously it makes my week better.
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This is in response to the early discussion of MLG vs GSL in the last episode.
I hope JP and others at MLG don't look at GSL and try to imitate it, at least not as a part of the current MLG events. You can't compare a LAN with a Starleague. I watched quite a few hours of MLG Dallas live on the stream and by the end, if you had said ok we're now going to have an hour break while we play some videos to hype up the finals some more, that would have been bad I think. Taking an 8 hour day and making it a 9 hour day doesn't accomplish anything as far as imitating a Starleague at a non-Starleague event.
If MLG were to put on an actual Starleague which ran for a period of weeks, then absolutely, go nuts. You can put in filler material if you're only doing a few matches per day. I think we're obviously still a ways away from a time when you could run a Starleague in North America where people would want to travel and play for longer than a weekend when the few players who would are already going to GSL. Just theorizing here.
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I rather have a dt than a banshee
O.o
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It's kinda crazy how I can just sit here and listen to you guys talk about Starcraft for 3 hours straight. This is such a great podcast and you guys are doing such a good job <3
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On November 18 2010 05:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
btw i'd just like to say that i liked where the TvP discussion ended up with the point that protoss is very very unforgiving but, if played perfectly, has some compositions and timings that are really strong. it kinda reminds me of terran in sc1 and terran, of course, was the most successful race in sc1 =]
I really liked this state of the game podcast, mostly because it tried to tackle the whole TvP thing, which suffers from issues that are, from what I've seen on forums and from discussions with friends, hard to put into words. I'm not sure if Painuser is/was the perfect Terran to try to go over this with on the cast, but I'd like to thank him and credit him with trying to hold with the discussion from a Terran perspective (Zealots being numerically strong, and rather having a DT over a Banshee aside).
I'm a casual+ player, more specifically an ~1750 diamond Toss user who is an avid fan of the SC2 scene but who, due to career and other hobbies/sports, can really only put in 4-8 hours on average a week into 'playing' the game. I'm not sure if I'm the podcasts target market exactly, but I'd like to let everyone involved know that I get a lot out of it and that discussions like the TvP one are important parts of the cast for me, even if it can sometimes turn into a bunch of wheel spinning and 'you know' moments with allusions to balance problems or just general hate for certain units/strategies.
I quoted Tyler because I agree 100% that Protoss can be very unforgiving, but when not needing forgiveness they are very strong - its a very all or nothing feeling and I think that is what Tyler was talking about when saying Toss has a hard time playing 'scrappy' or in recovery mode when compared to other races. Zerg and Terran seem to have more contingencies built into their techpaths. I find it ironic that at sub-pro levels there have been rumblings of Protoss being the 'easiest' race to play when in reality they are probably the most unforgiving. This is, however, reasonable under the assumption that at lower levels of play 'needing forgiveness' is more rare and Protoss will be in the stronger position more often relatively speaking.
I've seen other players talk about the Protoss' inability to tech switch as quickly, and I think that this has something to do with the matchup(s) problems, but more importantly Protoss has tech's that once hard countered lose effectiveness more quickly (and are bigger cash sinks) than the techs of the other races - the DT vs. Banshee being a good example of what I am talking about here.
I'd be interested to hear a similar discussion re: the ZvP matchup as well on a future podcast, especially considering P is seemingly having the most trouble breaking through in recent competitions which can be seen in contrast to the swing in success Z has seen since patches and even pre/during patches with the Cool GSL 1 win.
Finally, I find it odd that Day9 didn't chime in at all during the PvT discussion, especially since as the random player among them he might have the most unbiased addition to arguments of either/both sides. (edit - reading the thread like I should have done before posting shows he was actually away eating, which is always a good reason to be absent so I can forgive that^^)
- dut
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On November 18 2010 05:25 w_Ender_w wrote:
PainUser was awesome and the TvP breakdown was really good. I'd like to see both T-Pain and match up discussions come back in future episodes :D
Agreed...PainUser was great. I don't think you would find too many guys as articulate as him that could stand up to constant heat from Geoff and Tyler. He seemed completely on their level which I think is hard to find on this show. As an example, Idra is obviously very knowledgeable, but he has trouble keeping up on the show with Geoff and Tyler in my opinion...and it doesn't hurt that he's a Terran.
Very good show...although having Day9 for more than the first 25% would have been nice.
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I appreciate Geoff's commentary (as I think he has a unique voice within the SC community) but I think he should pipe down now and again to allow the others to speak. Not everyone has the same bulldog talking head mentality that he has. I personally really love hearing Tyler's thoughts on various issues but it often becomes "JP lobs another question to Geoff for 15-20 minutes".
Thanks for the casts guys, I look forward to them every week. Cheers.
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On November 18 2010 05:53 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
btw i'd just like to say that i liked where the TvP discussion ended up with the point that protoss is very very unforgiving but, if played perfectly, has some compositions and timings that are really strong. it kinda reminds me of terran in sc1 and terran, of course, was the most successful race in sc1 =]
LOL idra, please read^ hahaha
Great cast this week. it seems to get like an hour longer every week, and im lovin it! ^_^
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and sean just disapeared halfway
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On November 18 2010 07:16 Zaros wrote:and sean just disapeared halfway
Yea, it's the longest SotG yet. Almost 3 hours long.
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EPT
