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On September 21 2011 04:35 carloselcoco wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 04:32 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 04:29 Mordiford wrote:On September 21 2011 04:26 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 04:22 Chill wrote:On September 21 2011 04:17 daviday wrote:On September 21 2011 04:09 Chill wrote:On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote:
Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano. Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas. Come on. Jesus Christ. HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please. If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them... Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all... Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird. Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens.. When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract. In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll ) You are giving me fucking brain cancer. Do you honestly think Stephano is the first French player under contract? Holy shit. Even if that were the case, you can't be surprised when you have previous incidences establishing the contracts are necessary regardless. You think TSL has a boat full of money to pay their players? No, but their players are contracted now regardless. If you can't afford the players, don't be surprised when a team gives them a better fucking offer. Stephano is the first french player under contract IN FRANCE , yes MoOnan is French, isn't he? I am sure there is/was a French player last season in the NASL that as French and under a contract who was not Stephano...
Moonan is Korean. You're likely thinking of Moman.
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On September 21 2011 04:04 Chill wrote:
Conversely, I think it's very unethical to inform someone he can dissolve a contract based on (arguably) an oversight and then contract him yourself.
Why ? I would agree that it is unethical in some situations and ethically neutral in most others (like this case). Specifically if it is just after signing the contract and nothing of the contract being fulfilled yet I see no problem with someone making up his mind and using legal even if accidental way to dissolve the contract. I do not see any realistic way for you to show that the outcome is ethically worse than it would be if he honored his contract.
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If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Hire i which way? Without a contact and stuff this sounds like tax evasion and denying someone his social benifits to me (at least in most west european countries). At least in my country this company would probably be investigated and fined. 
I really hope the eSport community as a whole would become more professional, with good fair contracts. Hopefully in such a way that if a players gets RSI or are involved in an accident, they won't risk losing every support at once (if the team turns out to be evil) or at least have a right to the same government benifits any normal employee has.
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somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
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On September 21 2011 04:36 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 04:33 wunsun wrote:
If Stephano had a verbal contract with mil beforehand, doesn't that override the contact with coL and therefore make the coL contract void?
It seems no one is debating the fact that a verbal contract with mil was made. Well nobody is sure if there was a verbal contract between Stephano and Mil before he signed with Col. All we know is that Stephano told Mil that he would be staying with them, which can be taken as intent instead of an actual verbal agreement. There is a difference between the two. Just telling them he would stay with them w/o any actual terms being discussed isn't a verbal contract.
TBH stephano told mill he would staywith them the next years , then said yes to coL , then changed his mind again and stated on a french website " i will stay with millenium " and he changed his mind again.
And that only what we know. Since he got in talk with many other teams.
So Maybe all of you dont belive that when you say to a team " ill stay with you next season " , that they plan to send you to korea , that they are building a team house for you , etc.
That count for nothing ... for me it doesnt.. sorry.
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Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new).
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases.
+ Show Spoiler +
The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Code Civil. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used.
+ Show Spoiler + http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »
he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism.
Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court.
Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that contains words or notions that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms (the commun example is the job itself).
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.htmlLe contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.
The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled.
+ Show Spoiler + You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.htmlPour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.
For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.
Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...).
+ Show Spoiler +
It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information.
Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion.
Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here.
There is also the case of force majeure that can be called.
+ Show Spoiler +
So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise...
Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
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On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote:
somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
We don't know that yet, that is still in the process of being sorted out since the contract may default to US law.
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Hong Kong9179 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote:
somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble.
Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas.
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote:Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new). First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler +The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Constitution. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler + http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »
he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism. Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms. + Show Spoiler +http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.htmlLe contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad. The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read. In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler + You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.htmlPour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.
For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.
Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler + It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information. Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler +So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American. My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
Wow somebody who actually seems to have an understanding of the law and the legal systems involved in this situation. AND he's unbiased, TY for presenting this.
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United States13143 Posts
Piotr's post on this is the best post about this I've seen so far. Thanks for all the information, I hope this somehow gets resolved amicably, though it seems unlikely.
Edit: Oh, and your english is completely fine.
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Good post, Piotr. Glad to have some input from a local and one that is just factual and not picking sides. Everyone here (myself included) are just speculating based on what little info we have. And since this i sa message board, it generally devolves into anger and complaining.
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On September 21 2011 04:42 itsjustatank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote:
somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it. In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble. Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas.
Wait, I believe a progaming contract is like any employment contract, which means nothing prevents you to resign from your current job right ? At least that's the case in China even though workers rights are horrible here. Obviously it's retarded to resign the day after you signed the contract, but it should be ok legally.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Whoa... ballin'. Really appreciate your post - a lot of information in there.
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Well, Complexity's statement was far better.
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On September 21 2011 04:50 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 04:42 itsjustatank wrote:On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote:
somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it. In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble. Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas. Wait, I believe a progaming contract is like any employment contract, which means nothing prevents you to resign from your current job right ? At least that's the case in China even though workers rights are horrible here. Obviously it's retarded to resign the day after you signed the contract, but it should be ok legally.
Yes but Col has stated on reddit that this wasn't an employment contract, it was a contractor contract which from what I can tell is governed by a different set of laws.
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On September 21 2011 04:50 Chill wrote:Whoa... ballin'. Really appreciate your post - a lot of information in there.
fully agree, thanks for the information as well as your thoughts on it
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On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote:
Thank you for single-handedly turning this thread around. I'm sure TL as a whole appreciates it.
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Hong Kong9179 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:50 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 04:42 itsjustatank wrote:On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote:
somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it. In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble. Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas. Wait, I believe a progaming contract is like any employment contract, which means nothing prevents you to resign from your current job right ? At least that's the case in China even though workers rights are horrible here. Obviously it's retarded to resign the day after you signed the contract, but it should be ok legally.
We haven't seen the contracts but a competent one would include provisions for compensation in situations you describe, especially if the reason for leaving is so you can go to a competitor.
The second half of my post is just that I feel this situation can make any future business transactions between France and the rest of the international scene more risky and that will ironically hurt French eSports in general.
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I honestly don't understand how this is so much drama.
Yea, it was a dumb move by Stephano, but I don't think there was any kind of harm done, it's not like col already spent money on him or something. Why don't we just leave that kid alone?
But I guess we're all capitalism know and sue each other. Good times!
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i dont see how priot post is different that my posts
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EPT
