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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On November 30 2009 10:53 JWD wrote: How are minarets "annoying"? They are "annoying" because they are patriarchal symbolic representations of age old values which don't rhyme well with the ideas of the western society of today. Burkas should be banned in countries who don't want to comply with the idea that women aren't allowed to show their face or their skin. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On November 30 2009 11:05 TS-Rupbar wrote: I want to clarify that I'm all against banning religious stuff when it doesn't matter. Muslims can wear burkhas anywhere, it doesn't bother me. However, I wouldn't like minarets in some places where I wouldn't mind mosques. If there would be some sort of compromise (someone wrote they don't need to have the shouting function), I'm all for adding minarets! These ideas is what is wrong with Sweden. People are politically correct in such a naive way that every sensitive topic gets infected and can't be discussed anymore. If you say anything about Islam you are labeled an "islamophobe", if you say anything about immigration laws you are labeled a "racist". This country sometimes...Why on earth would we want more minarets. We have enough problems as it is with suburbs, Rosengård etc. While your way of thinking is "politically correct" and earns you goodwill points, they aren't realistic and you just end up comforming to popular opinion. Swedes are also quite scared of conflict and confrontation which results in our heritage being kicked out because it could be "racist" to immigrants coming to Sweden. Seriously? We used to sing the national song in school and have swedish flags, that's all gone now because someone thinks it's a racist thing. Even writing this would make people instantly label me a racist in their black/white politically correct views of the world. | ||
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inertinept
Bangladesh1195 Posts
reaches 20 pages sigh. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On November 30 2009 21:37 freelander wrote: most people here who post the PC shit here doesn't understand the situation Islam isn't a tolerant thing at all. It is highly aggressive in spreading, they don't assimilate to the local customs. Look at Netherlands, in Rotterdam (I think, am I right?) for example they apply saria to courts and theaters, they have people get seated by their gender. Muslim lawyers don't stand up when judges come in, because Quran says every man is equal. Also, a lot of you, mainly posters from USA think that banning something like that can't be in a liberal country, but of course it can, liberalism supports different views till those don't mean threat to others, also it doesn't mean that people has no right to protest against stuff they think is being harmful. You can't be tolerant to ideas which aren't tolerant to others. I think many W-European countries have this problem right now. Well spoken and I agree. Why give leeway to muslims if they don't live by the laws of the country in where they live | ||
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
On December 01 2009 00:13 Foucault wrote: These ideas is what is wrong with Sweden. People are politically correct in such a naive way that every sensitive topic gets infected and can't be discussed anymore. If you say anything about Islam you are labeled an "islamophobe", if you say anything about immigration laws you are labeled a "racist". This country sometimes...Why on earth would we want more minarets. We have enough problems as it is with suburbs, Rosengård etc. While your way of thinking is "politically correct" and earns you goodwill points, they aren't realistic and you just end up comforming to popular opinion. Swedes are also quite scared of conflict and confrontation which results in our heritage being kicked out because it could be "racist" to immigrants coming to Sweden. Seriously? We used to sing the national song in school and have swedish flags, that's all gone now because someone thinks it's a racist thing. Even writing this would make people instantly label me a racist in their black/white politically correct views of the world. I don't think you're a racist, but I don't think you should dismiss opposing viewpoints as merely "politically correct". You happen to value tradition and national culture. I do too. I just value free expression and freedom of religion more highly. Neither of us are right or wrong because placing value on things is inherently subjective. | ||
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CrimsonLotus
Colombia1123 Posts
But things like this are discrimination because all the people should have the same rights once they are in the country, regardless of religion. To be honest, had i been born in a country like Switzerland i would certainly be irritated by the presence of muslims of whoever else i might consider "undesirable". If you inmigrate to a foreing country, not just to study and work for some time but to live there, then YOU should be responsible for integrating as best as posible to this new society and not expect everyone else to adapt to you. It might no be politically correct, but life almost never is. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
To me minarets are a symbol for islam and islam is threatening the freedom of half of the population of the country(females?). I would rather see islam banned as a whole but that would result in instant riots so banning symbols of oppression is a good thing in my oppinion. | ||
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Mischy
United States179 Posts
On November 30 2009 23:50 Velr wrote: You might want to take a look at the christians and their problems/discrimination in turkye before you talk up its management of religion... Well seeing as there were probably zero christians in Turkey when Attaturk was alive, I don't see how the current issues affect what he was able to do. And I'm just talking about how one country has dealt with Islam and been able to reign in its power, while the agent of this change is respected as a national hero; as opposed to a vile oppressor of religion. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On November 30 2009 18:59 lazz wrote: dont any of you guys have friends from sweden? apparently over there islamic people are fucking crazy and are trying to take over the place and shit. refusing to assimilate into the country they're in etc. i dont blame the swiss for banning minarets or w/e islamic structures, they're genuinely scared of islamic people. i dont blame them at all and it doesn't surprise me one bit. same sort of shit is happening in britain and other european countries as well edit: read the OP post as swedes, instead of swiss. but it's a very similar situation in sweden and other euro countries as well so it's still relevant Yeah, some parts of Sweden are hugely problematic when it comes to muslims. In Swedens third biggest city Malmo, the most common male name is Mohammed. This is of course a result of Swedens very generous immigration laws. The problem is that many muslims don't want to be a part of Swedish society, live on Swedens generous welfare and do god knows what on their free time. Some of them are surely supporting Al-Quaida in some way or another. About half the people in Malmo's biggest muslim neighbourhood of Rosengard are unemployed. Alot of violent crimes and rape are commited by largely arabs as well. A ridiculous new thing is that many newspapers don't write what countries offenders come from but state obvious stuff like that their sisters were forced to marry in another country etc, which of course in 90% of the cases make them muslim. This is not about racism or "islamophobia" (silly word), it's about not being okay with a ridiculous religion like Islam. | ||
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Excelsior
United States46 Posts
On November 30 2009 10:53 JWD wrote: How are minarets "annoying"? I don't know, maybe because Islam has generally been at war with European civilization (both with Christianity and especially with the secular ideas prevalent today's Europe) for pretty much its entire existence (invasion of Iberia by the Moors, the destruction of Byzantium by the Ottoman Turks and their endless subsequent expansions into the Balkans, two sieges of Vienna, the Barbary coast pirates, and so much more.) Like the Catholic Church of the middle ages, Islam is very much a political entity as well as religious, with the two being deeply intertwined in the Islamic worldview. With all of this said, I think it's reasonable that people in many European countries are not thrilled to see the symbols of an age old enemy's political might flying high over the ancient capitals of their ancestral homelands. | ||
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[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On December 01 2009 00:40 Foucault wrote: Yeah, some parts of Sweden are hugely problematic when it comes to muslims. In Swedens third biggest city Malmo, the most common male name is Mohammed. This is of course a result of Swedens very generous immigration laws. The problem is that many muslims don't want to be a part of Swedish society, live on Swedens generous welfare and do god knows what on their free time. Some of them are surely supporting Al-Quaida in some way or another. About half the people in Malmo's biggest muslim neighbourhood of Rosengard are unemployed. Alot of violent crimes and rape are commited by largely arabs as well. A ridiculous new thing is that many newspapers don't write what countries offenders come from but state obvious stuff like that their sisters were forced to marry in another country etc, which of course in 90% of the cases make them muslim. This is not about racism or "islamophobia" (silly word), it's about not being okay with a ridiculous religion like Islam. You could also replace "Sweden" with "Germany" and still it would be 100% correct. Btw, what a coincidence. A country with a cross and nothing else in it's flag is gonna be the first one to lay down the law on muslims. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On December 01 2009 00:46 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: You could also replace "Sweden" with "Germany" and still it would be 100% correct. Yeah I know, I think you guys might also have worse problems with muslims than we have | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
I also don't understand why religion is given such respect in the first place. Religion is nothing more than a bunch of outdated ideas written by a bunch of self proclaimed prophets that constantly contradicts itself and support xenophobia and intolerance. Then, they top it off with an idea of a "god" that supposedly watches over them and apparently supports them in their personal endeavors against the heathens that believe in a different version of an invisible spirit who is apparently powerful enough to create the entire universe and yet cannot show one ounce of evidence for its existence. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On December 01 2009 00:49 ghostWriter wrote: I also don't understand why religion is given such respect in the first place. Religion is nothing more than a bunch of outdated ideas written by a bunch of self proclaimed prophets that constantly contradicts itself and support xenophobia and intolerance. Then, they top it off with an idea of a "god" that supposedly watches over them and apparently supports them in their personal endeavors against the heathens that believe in a different version of an invisible spirit who is apparently powerful enough to create the entire universe and yet cannot show one ounce of evidence for its existence. Yeah, that's so weird when you think about it. People actually take religion seriously and claim that there is a God somewhere up in the sky, or outside the universe or wherever he resides. It's quite ridiculous how we support this obvious oppression and judgement that religion puts on people in the name of god. And when it comes to 50% (women) of the muslim population having hardly no worth compared to men, something is very wrong. These aren't just cute, cultural expressions, but systematic oppression that results in things like stoning women who are unfaithful. Some people say that Islam needs to reform and become more liberal, and some muslims say this as well. The problem is that Islam and arabic culture goes hand in hand and one is hard to separate from the other. Also their political leaders are religious leaders which is a huge issue. Islam has such an profound and dominant influence on arabic countries that it pretty much defines them. | ||
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Zinbiel
Sweden878 Posts
This law is human pettiness at it's worst and I disapprove. | ||
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afg-warrior
Afghanistan328 Posts
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
religion is long past its expiry date. If all the religious people dived into philosophy instead, humanity might have progressed into a much better state already. And I dont mean just fanatically accepting a philosopher's words, i mean giving much thought and perhaps even innovating new philosophical arguments. Because religion is inherently limiting, but philosophy as a discipline is exploration only limited by your mental capabilities. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10180 Posts
On December 01 2009 00:37 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: How is banning minarets anti-liberal? To me minarets are a symbol for islam and islam is threatening the freedom of half of the population of the country(females?). I would rather see islam banned as a whole but that would result in instant riots so banning symbols of oppression is a good thing in my oppinion. Ever heard of two wrongs don't make a right? It's okay to oppress muslims because they threaten the freedom of women? What if TL moderators think it's okay to oppress you because you threaten the freedom of muslims? Or is it okay the threaten the freedom of muslims since they don't make up half the population like women do? oh the irony | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28548 Posts
This law is the greatest so-far example of the tyranny of the majority, where people due to fear of something they do not understand give up one of the most obvious rights western society has (freedom of expression more so than religion) in a fight against a religion supposedly because this religion oppresses freedom of expression. It's hilariously hypocritical, but devastatingly sad. | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
On December 01 2009 01:26 Railxp wrote: actually the Islam religion is not oppressive at all to women, in fact equality is written right there in their holy book. In this point, fault the cultures and not the religion. religion is long past its expiry date. If all the religious people dived into philosophy instead, humanity might have progressed into a much better state already. And I dont mean just fanatically accepting a philosopher's words, i mean giving much thought and perhaps even innovating new philosophical arguments. Because religion is inherently limiting, but philosophy as a discipline is exploration only limited by your mental capabilities. ^ for plus one, Malaysia is predominant with Muslims but it's a really nice place to live in. because it has already assimilated itself to modern age unlike the Middle East,.. I still think it's lack of good education that's why some Muslims are bad, and why the hell is immigration letting these guys that has 17th century philosophical view about the world in their country? I mean common, if you're going to get someone from a 3rd world country there's always me you know? Cool stuff about minarets: ![[image loading]](http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/791/791055/assassins-creed-20070523082221459-000.jpg) | ||
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