EPTedit: read the OP post as swedes, instead of swiss. but it's a very similar situation in sweden and other euro countries as well so it's still relevant
Switzerland bans Minarets - Page 18
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
edit: read the OP post as swedes, instead of swiss. but it's a very similar situation in sweden and other euro countries as well so it's still relevant | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10763 Posts
On November 30 2009 18:50 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote: not really. They are not exactly "silent", as we notice the number (~46% in this case). In middle school (gymnasium) we did a similar thing. The teacher always wanted to play the same gay game we hated, so we just stopped taking part in the gymclasses. We sat on the floor and waited until the class was over. Not taking part in something is actually a form of protest, and looking it as silent support like so many politicians do is horrible. I am not swallowing everything that was said but do the opposite, I just do it anyway (like smoking weed). Really bad comparison. With your *silent* resolve against the Teachers game you actually stopped taking part in his class and it wasn't possible to really play the game anymore, at least not according to his duty to do something with the whole class. If you don't go to vote, exactly nothing happens because not voting ist he same as having no opinion, therefore all that happens is that others decide for you. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On November 30 2009 19:04 Velr wrote: Really bad comparison. With your *silent* resolve against the Teachers game you actually stopped taking part in his class and it wasn't possible to really play the game anymore, at least not according to his duty to do something with the whole class. If you don't go to vote, exactly nothing happens because not voting ist he same as having no opinion, therefore all that happens is that others decide for you. hmm, actually it's not a bad comparison at all. The game was possible to play with half the class (50% voters). Yes it's not possible if his duty is to do it with the whole class, but isn't a governments duty the exact same thing? Isn't it the governments job to find a solution working with all the ppl and not only those taking part in the system? When we first started to not take part in the teachers gay game (chuck ball) we were 3 ppl. He gave a fuck and told us we are assholes. But more and more ppl started to join us, after 3 weeks (3 classes) it were like 2 dudes remaining who "wanted" to play the game. Thats when he had to do something because the game couldn't be played anymore. But imho thats way to late because we missed 3 classes of gym. So those ppl not taking part in such a ridiculous voting shouldnt be deducted to lazy ass idiots who rather have other idiots decide over them, but be taken serious as a "silent" protest against such ridiculous votings. Let's face it, how many non populistic initiatives have survived a voting? NONE! Only shit like this minaret stuff and the sexual criminalist which should remain in prison their whole life bullshit get through the voting because its populistic bullshit. I don't take part in such a farce and I'm not just to lazy to go to vote, even if I would be, my dad would do all the stuff I would just need to sign it. | ||
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phyren
United States1067 Posts
1. Yes, this policy is democratic as, by definition, a democratic VOTE was done. However, the problem isn't that the Swiss are somehow opposing democracy; rather they are democratically choosing to prevent people from using certain forms of expression that are tied to a controversial religion. As one of the few rational posts said, even if all muslims were terrorists, that would not make it reasonable to ban the use of anything connected to Islam. I could give plenty of examples of why that idea is ridiculous, but seriously, it so clearly is. 2. Democratic societies are founded on the idea that every one of a variety of voices should be heard. The idea that immigrants need to assimilate into local culture by suppressing their native religions, languages, or any other part of their culture is idiotic. Countries do not need to be homogeneous to function, they just need to be consistent enough to avoid civil war, which is best done by allowing people to express their cultures where such expression doesn't hurt others. I don't see how anyone could argue that minarets hurt people. 3. If you oppose Islam or muslim countries due to their oppressive policies or lack of individual freedoms, how can you possibly feel that taking away rights to architectural expression is an acceptable way of showing your disapproval? | ||
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Dav_
Hungary236 Posts
http://www6.worldisround.com/photos/28/150/46_o.jpg | ||
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wildeb33zt
Norway2 Posts
This thread is full of it. There are so many arguments that are presented that doesn't have anything to do with the arguments they respond to, but are just random ways for the poster to express his/her negativity towards [insert random other poster]/islam/pie. Nothing is more frustrating than saying "I feel that it is wrong to do A because of B", and then the next four pages of posts are "Lol, ur stupid! U can do A because C, D, E, F". Thanks JWD, for being a pillar of reason is this madness of a thread. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On November 30 2009 19:14 phyren wrote: I tried to read through this but got fed up about half way through. It is truly depressing seeing some of the incredibly short sighted and self contradictory things people are responding with. 1. Yes, this policy is democratic as, by definition, a democratic VOTE was done. However, the problem isn't that the Swiss are somehow opposing democracy; rather they are democratically choosing to prevent people from using certain forms of expression that are tied to a controversial religion. As one of the few rational posts said, even if all muslims were terrorists, that would not make it reasonable to ban the use of anything connected to Islam. I could give plenty of examples of why that idea is ridiculous, but seriously, it so clearly is. 2. Democratic societies are founded on the idea that every one of a variety of voices should be heard. The idea that immigrants need to assimilate into local culture by suppressing their native religions, languages, or any other part of their culture is idiotic. Countries do not need to be homogeneous to function, they just need to be consistent enough to avoid civil war, which is best done by allowing people to express their cultures where such expression doesn't hurt others. I don't see how anyone could argue that minarets hurt people. 3. If you oppose Islam or muslim countries due to their oppressive policies or lack of individual freedoms, how can you possibly feel that taking away rights to architectural expression is an acceptable way of showing your disapproval? Hey, what about the rastas? Can they smoke weed, which is a part of their religion? No they can't! Do nazis in switzerland have the right to express their race hatred? No they have not. There are so many examples like this, and it's ridiculous looking from both sides. Muslims should give a fuck if they can build a minaret, and swiss ppl should give a fuck if some minarets are built. | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
On November 30 2009 16:51 Waxangel wrote: This seems relevant! http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/world/europe/30swiss.html?ref=world "Of 150 mosques or prayer rooms in Switzerland, only 4 have minarets, and only 2 more minarets are planned. None conduct the call to prayer." Oh then the ban is retarded. I hate islam (and all religion) its nasty, violent and a step back in social evolution, but so is banning this kind of thing especially if its not an all-around religious ban, im against it. | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10763 Posts
It's our own fault, not the Moslems or anyone elses, now we have to deal with it but obviously just disciriminating them is the easyer way. | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
On November 30 2009 19:33 Velr wrote: We wanted them as cheap labour force (thats diffrent from most of the Muslims that integrated in to the US). Now we have them and can't just send them back. It's our own fault, not the Moslems or anyone elses, now we have to deal with it but obviously just disciriminating them is the easyer way. Yeah, we discriminate them so brutally that they can't even change the official school. Oh wait, no it's not, they can take the girls out of swimming classes they can take them out of gym classes they dont have to visit religious classes (this makes sense). As already said, this minaret initiative is populistic sign to address all these issues. But obviously its easier to call it discrimination and stamp it as right wing idioticy as always and just refuse to see the obvious problems. The politicians clearly have failed in this case. They thought: "Oh, this is gonna fail anyway let's just ignore it". P.S. it's not just cheap labor force. You just blind out the asylum situation. Read this white paper about muslims in Switzerland then you will know how the muslim part grew. http://www.ekm.admin.ch/de/dokumentation/doku/mat_muslime_d.pdf | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10763 Posts
That's my problem. I'm against *special* rules for Muslims but denying them a *right* just because of other problems is stupid and retarded. The politicians clearly have failed in this case. They thought: "Oh, this is gonna fail anyway let's just ignore it". 100% agree here. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
But instead of one boarder, you guys have dozens of boarders. Instead of a "conservative" government, you guys have "liberal" governments. Instead of a couple hundred million Mexicans you guys have a billion Muslims. Instead of nationalism, you guys have religion to deal with. Instead of being the "number one" economy, you guys have to work together and compete with each other. Is it really as bad as I just made it out to be? | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
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ghermination
United States2851 Posts
On November 30 2009 18:59 lazz wrote: dont any of you guys have friends from sweden? apparently over there islamic people are fucking crazy and are trying to take over the place and shit. refusing to assimilate into the country they're in etc. i dont blame the swiss for banning minarets or w/e islamic structures, they're genuinely scared of islamic people. i dont blame them at all and it doesn't surprise me one bit. same sort of shit is happening in britain and other european countries as well edit: read the OP post as swedes, instead of swiss. but it's a very similar situation in sweden and other euro countries as well so it's still relevant This. The increased number of Islamic immigrants into the rest of Europe wouldn't be so bad if half of them weren't batshit insane, trying to rebel for ABOVE equal rights in a country that welcomed them with opened arms. They refuse to change and I see no reason to argue against the Swiss banning people who are at best illogical and violent. (Although i'm not saying that all Islamers are like that) | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10763 Posts
P.S. it's not just cheap labor force. You just blind out the asylum situation. Read this white paper about muslims in Switzerland then you will know how the muslim part grew. http://www.ekm.admin.ch/de/dokumentation/doku/mat_muslime_d.pdfLast edit: 2009-11-30 19:49:58 Nah, the Asylum situation is completly diffrent, you can send them home as soon as it's *safe*. Not helping people that need Asylum would be a horrible crime, but there is no reason to not send them home if their pledge wasn't reasonable.. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On November 30 2009 19:29 iG.ClouD wrote: I hope this actually will be the first step towards the elimination of muslims in europe. They are garbage and we don't want them. What next ? Jews ? | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
 They don't respect human rights and didn't evolve at all in the past 100 years like other religions did. There is no reason to come to good terms to them, we tried it and it's not working. Good job Switzerland on taking the first drastic step. Maybe discrimination will change things since comprehension and integration failed. | ||
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StimD
Norway738 Posts
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Radiomouse
Netherlands209 Posts
On the one hand, the majority of the swiss people don't want minarets to be build(some might not want it because they dislike the islamic religion, some might dislike it because it's ugly and even others might vote no just coz). And on the other hand, the thing that the majority of the people want is limiting other peoples freedom. And i don't think you can say that limiting freedom is in all cases bad, seeing as sometimes, for a society to function and maintain a stable environment you have to play to the people. And yes, they can't build minarets, but seriously, why do they _need_ to? Aside from them just wanting their minaret there, it isn't performing the tasks it was originally intended for. In short, yes, their freedom is limited, but not in such a way that the freedom to excercise their religion is limited. So meh, can't really say that the swiss are being nazi's. | ||
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