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On November 16 2010 06:59 gdTyrael wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 06:38 vsportsguy wrote:On November 16 2010 06:19 gdTyrael wrote:Thats my point, imo its impossible to Hatch first in ZvZ unless both players hatch first On November 16 2010 06:18 regulator_mk wrote:
Scout on 8. If you see early pool, don't go hatch first; if you don't see one, then go hatch first... even a 14 pool can finish off a hatch first. An agressive player will always beat it. PS: On a side note, you guys might have heard artosis in gsl saying that in korea you cant hatch first anymore against protoss and to terran cause you get cannon/bunker rushed. I think soon enough Zerg is not going to hatch first at all. A hatch first counters a 14 pool pretty easily. Obviously we're not talking about steppes of war here, but on any map where hatch first is viable, it will easily be able to fend off 14 pool aggression. Stopping 11/12 pools is much harder, and stopping 6/7 pools is impossible. I still find hatch first to be viable in ZvT and ZvZ. Bunker rushes can be beaten with hatch first, whereas cannon rushes can't. Yeah, map distance plays a huge role, sorry for not mentioning it. Still I would like to know how worth is risking a FE. Supposing you yourself go everygame 11-12 pool, with the intention of not letting the other player FE, if he does 6-9 pool, you can hold it, if he 14 pool, your economy is not that far behind, if he FE you win or deny it at best.
11-12 pool is pretty behind economically and I think you'll have speed + blings out slower as a result which is really bad. 13 pool 12 gas (or 13, not sure which is better) works really well for certain maps. A big part is knowing when to cut drones while waiting for your pool so you can get 4 lings + queen + speed (if you have enough gas, depends on bo) right away.
Again so much of it is control and decision making. You have to know whether or not you need constant pressure, drone production, or save up for a big bust. Chances are if you are failing vs hatch first with pool/gas builds you might just want to re-examine your control and decision making.
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On November 16 2010 06:07 gdTyrael wrote:
Im 1600 diamond player and by FAR ZvZ is my worst MU.
Today I lost 3 times to huge lings openings.. I mean, the guy just spent on lings, most of them went like 11-12 pool... But even Im going 14 pool standard I barely survive, I just can hold myself while managing my larva between lings to defend and droning. I cant see how you can Hatch first in ZvZ and survive to a commited ling harass, and Im not even tlking about 6 pool, a basic 12 pool can deny the hatch... because you will always get scouted, If I scout a hatch first I just make lings and thats it, he doesnt have creep to lay spines and probably less lings than me, so or I win straight or I deny his exp and we start al over again the 2 expanding.
The biggest problem I have is getting pinned by my opponent. In ZvZ I like to go pool first, 13 or 14, I get a queen, bout 4 lings and a spine crawler, and if he commits to a heavy ling attack I survive most of the times, but with some mineral line harassing (ling passing through the sides of spines) and he usually at this point will have always more lings than me cause I spent on 1 or 2 spines.
At this point hes completely safe to expand to his natural since he cannot win right away but has his army at my door thou. After I get roachs or enough ling he retreats, but again, Im really behind cause his exp is already paying for itself.
(
In ZvZ, it's almost always a bad idea to hatch first. What you should do is pool first, then go for blings. THEN you can expand. Make sure that you keep your drone count up as well as an ample amount of blings/lings at your base. Make roaches if you want to as well. The blings (If you can use them effectively) can kill any ling opening. Literally. One blings if used correctly can kill an insane amount of lings. By then they will be on the defensive. I actually find ZvZ to just be straightforward. This is how the game usuallly goes. Both players open with roaches, the do combat, and retreat. They then proceed to tech to Mutas/Hydras, and the player with the most units and the most upgraded units will win the game.
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I say as it stands now, just pick the build you are best at and go with it in ZvZ. It is a rock-paper-scissors type deal anyway. What I know is that typically if I one base, whether it be roaches, lings, or ling/bling I'll usually hit in time to beat a FE and that is the timing I'll go for. The rest of the time it is 1 base v 1 base and I hope I picked the right build(I usually find Roach beats bling/ling, and bling/ling beats ling, and mass ling can overrun roach if early enough before that critical number of roaches is out).
I hardly even scout in ZvZ anymore. I just pick one of my 1 base builds, mass up fast and attack. And if it is a 2 player map I def don't scout because I'd rather have the extra resources.
I don't know if there is such a thing as a safe opening in this match-up. Roaches might be the best bet although u are vulnerable for a period of time. The safest thing to do might be to just 6 pool all the time, at least if you do that you know you are covered if you get 6 pooled.
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I think a lot of players are ignoring the fact that a hatch first build order is only SLIGHTLY economically ahead of for example a 13 pool 16 hatch build order. So since the only problem for hatch first seems to be a 6 pool you can just 13 pool and then time your scout in a way that you can decide on what to do (14-15 gas for roaches or 16 hatch. In the absolute worst case scenario you have to cancel your hatch and try to micro your way out of the cheese all in, however as we've seen in Korea, quite a few top players go for Speedling/Baneling with a quick hatch before the actual micro wars commence.
Here's the thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167577
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On November 16 2010 07:16 FLuE wrote:
I say as it stands now, just pick the build you are best at and go with it in ZvZ. It is a rock-paper-scissors type deal anyway. What I know is that typically if I one base, whether it be roaches, lings, or ling/bling I'll usually hit in time to beat a FE and that is the timing I'll go for. The rest of the time it is 1 base v 1 base and I hope I picked the right build(I usually find Roach beats bling/ling, and bling/ling beats ling, and mass ling can overrun roach if early enough before that critical number of roaches is out).
I hardly even scout in ZvZ anymore. I just pick one of my 1 base builds, mass up fast and attack. And if it is a 2 player map I def don't scout because I'd rather have the extra resources.
I don't know if there is such a thing as a safe opening in this match-up. Roaches might be the best bet although u are vulnerable for a period of time. The safest thing to do might be to just 6 pool all the time, at least if you do that you know you are covered if you get 6 pooled.
If your ling/bling is losing to roaches you aren't scouting at the right time or aren't responding correctly. If you scout roaches (the warren, if you scout and see roaches you're too late) use your first vomit for drones, cancel your baneling nest, and make a roach warren. Noncommittally pressure with the lings (but don't lose them) to force him to make at least some lings. From there your overlord positioning and decision making skills are put to the test. It takes a bunch of practice, but you can keep up in roach count going forward while also having a better chance to tech, upgrade, or expand due to the extra drones you made at the beginning. The tricky part is that even if there's no aggression you need to be able to keep competitive in roach count without overproducing roaches until you plan to move out and attack. An overseer is really useful in roach vs roach mid games because you can't always tell if they went 4 roaches -> mutas or if they're staying roaches.
Also position your roaches correctly! If he pushes out early you may be down 1-3 roaches, but you do have a defenders advantage if you position correctly. His roaches at some point need to unball and get into a concave while your roaches can start in a concave. This gives you a huge advantage that can easily overcome the 1-3 roaches you are missing. You can also bring in your queen to help DPS so long as you can pull her away (she CANNOT die).
Also roaches + a few lings beat pure roaches of a comparable #. The lings take a ton of roach damage (6 roach hits for 50mins, comparatively 1 roach dies in 9 hits). So those early lings help if he pushes out early. If he tries to cut early lings himself (and goes straight roaches) either he pooled early so your economy is better or you have a window where you can pressure with your initial lings due to his lackluster defenses.
The moral of the story is don't jump to the idea that it's a build order loss. Really examine what you can do to control better.
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On November 16 2010 07:25 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 07:16 FLuE wrote:
I say as it stands now, just pick the build you are best at and go with it in ZvZ. It is a rock-paper-scissors type deal anyway. What I know is that typically if I one base, whether it be roaches, lings, or ling/bling I'll usually hit in time to beat a FE and that is the timing I'll go for. The rest of the time it is 1 base v 1 base and I hope I picked the right build(I usually find Roach beats bling/ling, and bling/ling beats ling, and mass ling can overrun roach if early enough before that critical number of roaches is out).
I hardly even scout in ZvZ anymore. I just pick one of my 1 base builds, mass up fast and attack. And if it is a 2 player map I def don't scout because I'd rather have the extra resources.
I don't know if there is such a thing as a safe opening in this match-up. Roaches might be the best bet although u are vulnerable for a period of time. The safest thing to do might be to just 6 pool all the time, at least if you do that you know you are covered if you get 6 pooled. If your ling/bling is losing to roaches you aren't scouting at the right time or aren't responding correctly. If you scout roaches (the warren, if you scout and see roaches you're too late) use your first vomit for drones, cancel your baneling nest, and make a roach warren. Noncommittally pressure with the lings (but don't lose them) to force him to make at least some lings. From there your overlord positioning and decision making skills are put to the test. It takes a bunch of practice, but you can keep up in roach count going forward while also having a better chance to tech, upgrade, or expand due to the extra drones you made at the beginning. The tricky part is that even if there's no aggression you need to be able to keep competitive in roach count without overproducing roaches until you plan to move out and attack. An overseer is really useful in roach vs roach mid games because you can't always tell if they went 4 roaches -> mutas or if they're staying roaches. Also position your roaches correctly! If he pushes out early you may be down 1-3 roaches, but you do have a defenders advantage if you position correctly. His roaches at some point need to unball and get into a concave while your roaches can start in a concave. This gives you a huge advantage that can easily overcome the 1-3 roaches you are missing. You can also bring in your queen to help DPS so long as you can pull her away (she CANNOT die). Also roaches + a few lings beat pure roaches of a comparable #. The lings take a ton of roach damage (6 roach hits for 50mins, comparatively 1 roach dies in 9 hits). So those early lings help if he pushes out early. If he tries to cut early lings himself (and goes straight roaches) either he pooled early so your economy is better or you have a window where you can pressure with your initial lings due to his lackluster defenses. The moral of the story is don't jump to the idea that it's a build order loss. Really examine what you can do to control better.
This guy pretty much nailed it. That is how my decision making generally works, and if your opponent is going roach, it means he will pool at a normal time (14 later), and you can hatch first if you want...
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Yeah it is a great post but it assumes you are able to see the warren.
Most good players are going to wait till they clear the scouting drone to drop their bling nest or their warren so there aren't many games you'll see which one it is or if it is just lings and maybe a fast lair tech.
I personally just don't like playing ZvZ from a reactionary point of view, do that enough already in the other MUs. I find that even if I do get the scout off or know what is coming I'm behind where I want to be so I'd rather just pick a plan and go with it.
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Your initial lings can scout it and it should be your #1 priority with your initial lings. I don't even send a drone scout in ZvZ because it never tells me anything that changes how I would play.
Yeah it's a reactionary style, but the way I see it reactionary is zerg's strength and why would you try to work against that.
Also I highly recommend the ZvZ games from MLG Dallas. There aren't many big name vs big name ZvZs, but there's still a ton of games. IdrA played 2-4 sets of ZvZ for example.
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You absolutely can hatch first if they pool first. I'm getting pretty decent at ZvZ now. I'm ~1700 btw
If they pool 14 or later, you can hatch first. This means they will have ling speed + blings before you - you CANNOT leave your base until you have speed, or once his speed finishes any lings you have on the field will die, he will come to your base, morph 1 bling, and then take down your hatch. GG
@ pwnasaurus
. I like going 9 pool ZvZ and have never lost to hatch first. Granted im only 1600 plat( dunno why i havnt gone to diamond yet) but it seems its always an easy win if they go hatch first or an huge micro fight to get a spine down or finish off a few probes and i move on to roachs if i can. Why would hatch first ever work against a 9 pool?
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~2200 Zerg Player
Some might hate on me for posting my rating but most like to know where the opinion comes from. I'll throw out what I do. I win 4 of 5 zvz games against 2200-2400 players but have trouble with zvt currently at that level. Anyway... I do this build every game as if it's standard and have my adaptions based on what I see.
14 pool
drone - 14
drone - 15
15 gas
drone - 15
15 - ovie
Now, here is where you have to wait a split second and use your ovie to scout for lings coming. You should have seen them by now or be seeing them if he pooled before 10. If you see lings, defend with more lings and get a queen. You should be able to defend with drones/lings and be ahead in economy. If not,
15 queen and 15 lings (just two) - 18
The two lings go out purely to scout what your opponent is doing. Note you should be able to know with your ovie if he hatched first. I'll explain how to react with different scenarios.
1) Opponent went hatch first. Get enough gas to get both speedlings AND +1 attack for lings. Take drones off of gas and your goal is to AT LEAST take out his hatch. You will expand yourself and if you can't win prepare to enter mass roaches phase.
2) Opponent is going ling/bling. This requires a lot of micro but you should win. Get both roaches and bling. You will just defend with roaches and a few (only a few) blings of your own.
3) Opponent is going roaches. Put down your roach warren and take your natural. You have to scout well to know how many and when to pump roaches. I try to get speed for roaches and +1.
A few things you must be aware of...
a) If he drone scouts you much earlier than your 14 pool you must put down your pool. Any reason for him to scout that early has hurt his economy and it likely some sort of early pool/spine crawler.
b) Your main objective is to macro to roaches that are upgraded and win. If he is going mutas then you need to scout well enough to know when to hit him. If there are tons of spines and he's going to mutas then just get queens and hydras.
c) Spread out your ovies! You want to see the entire path from him to you. Once you are ready to make your roach push you want to be able to creep the entire path.
Other than that, you play the same you normally would. Drone when you can and get +1 upgrades for roaches. I like speed and burrow for them so that I can run away and heal faster.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166154.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166155.jpg)
Here are a couple of examples by the way...
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And one more for muta transition...
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-166177.jpg)
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Lately I've been trying out the 11 pool as a standard opening in all matchups, and its working out great, even played out as an eco-build. It wasnt meant specifially against Zerg, but is a safe opening without many sacrifices. It just has a nice flow :D
The opening build order is
11/10 Overlord
11/10 Pool (as overlord finishes)
(~13) Scout
15 Extractor
15 Queen
17 Zergling (hunt enemy scout, scout again / get watchtowers)
18 Overlord
~20 Queen (as first finishes)
~23 Speed (at 100 gas, take 2 off gas afterwards)
23 Overlord
At this point should have scouted some information on the enemy, spreading creep with 2-3 tumors and make your decisions with your first three waves of Larvae - this is my favourite part of the build ;>
1. Wave: Drones or rushed Zerglings
I usually make those all drones, giving me the economy boost for the next two waves. But in ZvZ a hatch first build can quickly be punished by a swarm of zerglings or kill an early rush.
2. Wave: Speedlings
Those zerglings pop about the time speed finishes, so you can gain mapcontrol, scout and harrass.
If you invested the first wave in Drones, you'll have enough minerals to expand while producing the zerglings. Its also a good idea to put 3 on Gas again and make up to 3 creep tumors before bringing your second queen to the new hatch.
3. Wave: Transist
Another usually-drones-wave for me, so I can saturate the soon-to-be-expansion well. Although again you can decide to reinforce your attack with more speedlings - this works especially well if you build a baneling nest during the second wave. Also: Lair and maybe roach warren and/or additional extractors.
From there on, its whatever you want. You got a good economy on 2 bases with 2 queens and some speedlings on the field, possibly even applied light pressure.
The fun thing is, the early pool works a bit like a bluff, so you can actually drone rather greedy, but your enemy often expects early pressure. Early zergling rushes aren't much of a problem and still I manage to get ahead of many zergs in economy, because the expansion timing fits in with the drone count so nice.
Here are some recent replays, I'm currently ~1600 Diamond. Not all of those games worked out as planned after the opening since I'm still experimenting there, but they still show the nice timings of the builds pretty good (and how much I <3 infestors in ZvZ).
Infestorplay
While my enemy expected an early rush, I droned and expanded, then pressured him with zergling/baneling while transisting into Infestors and Hydras. This one worked out great.
7 Pool Defense
I hold off a 7 pool + spinecrawler rush - killing him in the process.
Infestor Comeback
My opponent plays hatch first, but I fail to do enough damage. Soon, I even lose my expand. But later I manage a crazy comeback by 'infesting' most of his bases while enduring his attacks.
Loss to roach push
A death to 1-base-roach push, because I failed at decision making. Could have done way more damage with my early speedlings and droned to hard while he build up roaches. Still nice to see the comparison.
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12 hatch roach is pretty sexy on maps where its easy to defend expos. On maps like scrap or Jungle basin I think most zergs opt for 16 hatch anways, which I have been seeing more prevalently lately. I think zergs are wanting to sit down and actually play a macro based (And rather fun) game. The funny part is that mid lategame ZvZ, there are now well established timings so after big battles you will tend to sit off a bunch of bases (3-4) until whoever outmuscles the other wins.
Ive found that you can defend the 7 RR incredibly easily with speedling roach, unfortunately not pure speedlings really because 7 is a lot early game and you can't produce a million lings as of yet. With the lings absorbing hits, your own roaches can attack.
I think when zerg's scout FE's, they either choose to go for aggression or expand themselves, and in reality 13 pool 15 hatch isn't THAT horribly far behind 15 hatch first, sure a little bit, but its what happens immediately afterward is what really matters.
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(1600 Diamond player) My ZvZ goal is to go muta/ling/bling, because while roach/infestor is the better unit comp I feel like having map control makes up for it. What I'll do for my opening on every map but shakuras is 14 pool 13 gas (on shakuras I 14 hatch 13 pool 12 gas then spend first 50 gas on bling nest, and make blings to defend ling pressure.) With my first 4-6 lings I'll attack my opponent (cautiously, dont wanna lose em all). If I see lings, I'll continue making blings and lings. If I see roaches, I'll start my lair, poop a tumor (so I can have creep @ ramp for spines, to prevent runbys), and build 2-4 spines depending on how many roaches I see, how many lings I have and in the end what I can afford. When I start my lair, I throw down a second gas so I can have 200 when lair pops, and when I get sufficient mutas (I usually start +1 asap on spire) I'll expo.
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On November 16 2010 09:34 jdseemoreglass wrote:I'm tired of people saying ZvZ is rock, paper, scissors. I do the same exact build 100% of ZvZ games and I win about 85% of them. Check my posts and replays in this thread for the new gold standard in ZvZ. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167807¤tpage=2#29I will add another replay to the thread now against an aggressive 1-base muta play.
9 overlord
13 extractor > transfer 3
12 spawning pool
@100 gas metabolic boost
Metabolic boost finishes at 4:37. Speedlings would arrive 30 seconds earlier than with ParadiseX's build order.
I think low eco / early gas and speed is an equilibrium in the Zerg mirror. Roaches are also good, but almost always pop out very slow, when more and more speedlings and banelings arrive. They are often not able to protect the workers against banelings.
How do you protect your workers from banelings, anyway? Six banes are almost always the worker's demise.
And how do you react to something like 8 pool with drone all-in, 4 or 6 zerglings and an offensive spine crawler?
e: In the long term I often prefer to go roach / hydra with upgrades. If either banelings or mutalisks are on the field, fungal growth will have a devastating effect on them.
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On November 16 2010 09:46 LoVeBrasiL wrote:
~2200 Zerg Player
Some might hate on me for posting my rating but most like to know where the opinion comes from. I'll throw out what I do. I win 4 of 5 zvz games against 2200-2400 players but have trouble with zvt currently at that level. Anyway... I do this build every game as if it's standard and have my adaptions based on what I see.
14 pool
drone - 14
drone - 15
15 gas
drone - 15
15 - ovie
Now, here is where you have to wait a split second and use your ovie to scout for lings coming. You should have seen them by now or be seeing them if he pooled before 10. If you see lings, defend with more lings and get a queen. You should be able to defend with drones/lings and be ahead in economy. If not,
15 queen and 15 lings (just two) - 18
The two lings go out purely to scout what your opponent is doing. Note you should be able to know with your ovie if he hatched first. I'll explain how to react with different scenarios.
1) Opponent went hatch first. Get enough gas to get both speedlings AND +1 attack for lings. Take drones off of gas and your goal is to AT LEAST take out his hatch. You will expand yourself and if you can't win prepare to enter mass roaches phase.
2) Opponent is going ling/bling. This requires a lot of micro but you should win. Get both roaches and bling. You will just defend with roaches and a few (only a few) blings of your own.
3) Opponent is going roaches. Put down your roach warren and take your natural. You have to scout well to know how many and when to pump roaches. I try to get speed for roaches and +1.
A few things you must be aware of...
a) If he drone scouts you much earlier than your 14 pool you must put down your pool. Any reason for him to scout that early has hurt his economy and it likely some sort of early pool/spine crawler.
b) Your main objective is to macro to roaches that are upgraded and win. If he is going mutas then you need to scout well enough to know when to hit him. If there are tons of spines and he's going to mutas then just get queens and hydras.
c) Spread out your ovies! You want to see the entire path from him to you. Once you are ready to make your roach push you want to be able to creep the entire path.
Other than that, you play the same you normally would. Drone when you can and get +1 upgrades for roaches. I like speed and burrow for them so that I can run away and heal faster.
I like what you mentioned, but need some clarification. When the opponent goes hatch first, you also have to make a hatch? Also I see some progamers going hatch first at 15 then pool at 14 then gas at 13 basically all down at once. Is that because of scouting and trying to mirror or what is that? I just saw a game where iDra dominated CatZ it was a 13 pool vs an 8 pool, and the 13 pool (iDra) won...some micro helped where he lost barely anything to banelings, but i think it's the econ that really kicked in toward the end...
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When your opponent goes hatch first you will pull your drones off of gas once you have upgraded speed and +1. You will have more mineral income than your one queen can make larvae. So while you are harassing with your lings (threatening to destroy his hatch) you are forcing him to not make drones and you put down your hatch as well. Once the hatch is down your drones go back onto gas. The idea is to destroy his hatch but worst case scenario be equal with your own expansion.
It's not that 15 hatch 14 pool isn't viable but they are risking the fact that their opponent is going to do a later pool. The build I use is adaptable to your opponent while maintaining the ability to defend early pool builds and yet still be in the game economically.
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EPT
